Phil Deakins

16 wrote: it is for him while the land market is falling. if the land pricing model is ever changed so that residents can costplus it again then he will come zooming back That's sneaky! You invented a word and inserted without any warning. I thought fair notice was needed before a newly invented word could be used in public.

I'll only quote a bit of your post here because most of it has nothing to do with what you and I are discussing. Also, others have already discussed most of what you wrote, and I hope that they're knowledge has helped you. Masami Kuramoto wrote: You seem to agree that a 3D scene is a document, but you say it's not a resource. How can it be one but not the other? How can something that is viewable, downloadable, editable and locatable by URLs not be a resource? Why is a map of a 3D site's documents not a "site map?" There is no logic, no consistent line of thought in your argument. You remember the words but forgot their meaning. Your reading, and understanding of what you read, has gone awry again. Allow me to assist you... You've been inventing things again, and writing as though I said them. I didn't say that anything is not a resource. In fact, I made the point that what can be accessed on the internet IS a resource. That's the point I made. You seem to have understood the opposite. Or is it that you preferred me to have said the opposite? Either way, you've certainly invented the opposite and put it into my mouth. The reason I mentioned the word 'resource' (as in URL) was to point out that, the fact that something is a resource (that is accessible on the internet), does not make it a website or even in a website. A resource on the internet may or may not be a web page/website. SL is a resource but it isn't a website. An OS grid is a resource but it isn't a website. Understand now? Probably not.

16 wrote: i think that rule is just made up somehow i think is pre-post-erous even jjjejejejee (: LOL. Brilliant!

What's his agenda? I've only seen him in this thread.

I won't quote your whole post. I'll tell you which part I'm responding to as I respond to it. That way this post won't take up too much space. About your first Wikipedia section: It's a pity you don't understand the very research that you quoted because it stated very clearly that the internet and the web are two very different things, and it states that "the Web is one of the services that runs on the Internet". Now what could another service that runs on the internet be, I wonder. Ah. I've just remembered a couple - Second Life and OpenSim grids. So SL and OS grids run on the internet but they aren't websites. About your opensimulator.org section: In a nutshell, it says that hyperlinks are placed on the map to enable jumps from one grid to another. That's the only part of it that can be the reason for you quoting it. Yes, I agree. Grids do sometimes include hyperlinks to another system that also runs on the internet - the web. When it happens a web browser opens up within the viewer window. It's not part of the grid, of course, because the grid isn't a website, but it does open up within the programme's (viewer's) window. That doesn't make the grid a website. It just means that jumps can be made from the grid to the web. About your second Wikipedia section: It is true that hyperlinks are the means of jumping between webpages and websites. In fact, it was the invention of the hyperlink that caused the web in the first place. But hyperlinks are used on more systems that use the internet than the web. They are used in SL, for instance. But using such jumps between systems does not make the grid system a website. About your last paragraph: It is true that SL uses HTML pages for some things, but that doesn't make SL a website. Heck, eBooks are often written in HTML but they aren't websites either and neither are the eReaders that we read the HTML pages on. The viewer is not a browser. Feel free to show evidence that it is a browser if you really think it is. You haven't shown any so far. The World Map is not a sitemap. Do you know what site map actually is? Do some research. A URL does not make whatever is at the location a website. URLs are used to identify Resources (the R in URL) on the internet. A region may be a document (I'm sure it's a lot more than just a document). What I do know is that a region is not a webpage. A webpage is always a document but a document is usually something other than a webpage. You said, "The region is a document, the grid is a web site, the hypergrid is the web". Now that's really silly. I used to make my living on the web and the web that I made my living on was not a 3D world. Masami Kuramoto wrote: I think you are confused because you believe the web must be text. There is no such requirement. The web is all about hyperlinked presentation of content, regardless of form. It doesn't require HTTP, it doesn't require HTML. It doesn't have to be 2D. The web actually existed prior to the first web browser, and early web browsers would be unable to handle what we call "the web" today. The web is a moving target, and its evolution is the result of people's ability to think outside the box (or rather: outside the "page", in our case). No I don't believe that the web must be text. You are making things up for me again. The web is a system of hyperlinked websites. Websites contain content - all kinds of content. SL and OS grids are not the web kind of content. You can't get into them with a web browser. If you don't have a suitable programme on your computer, you can't into them at all. If they were websites, then they would run in a web browser. You do have one very small but valid thought though. The hypergrid could be described as a web - of grids. But it's definitely not what you called it - the web. And grids connected to the hypergrid can never be called websites. They can be called gridsites, if you like, but never websites. Keep digging. It's fun

Solar Legion wrote: And I - and all others that actually matter here - are getting tired of you being wilfully obtuse. You are wrong - period and end of the discussion. Your opinion here does not matter - it is in utter opposition to reality and makes so many false assumptions as to be utterly laughable. Come back when you can read and properly comprehend what is being said. Aw, come on, Solar. It's so easy to show him being wrong that it's good fun. Leave him alone lol.

Masami Kuramoto wrote: >> "A Second Life/ OS Grid server is not a web page - period. This forum? It's a web page. SL/OSG servers? No - they're far more like a WoW/MMO/Online Game/Content Distribution server." I am getting somewhat tired of people misquoting me and then refuting those misquotes as if they had anything to do with me. This is what I actually said: "Technically, an OpenSim grid is a website" Since you wish to be pedantic about it, Solar did write 'web page' instead of 'website', but I didn't get it wrong when I told you that you were wrong about an OS grid being a website. Also, Solar's mistake was marginal whereas your misquotes and inventions were huge. And also since you wits to be pedantic, what you said ("Technically, an OpenSim grid is a website") is absolutely wrong. It isn't a website "technically" or in any other way. I already told you that so you should know. You could call it an 'internet site' and be correct, although 'internet site' isn't a phrase that anyone uses. But it's not a website. Did you do the research I suggested, and find out what the web is and what the internet is? They are very different. You really should stop digging your hole.

Ah but pre-pone (with a hyphen) was already invented, as you saw in the article, so you can't invent the same thing again without a hyphen. It's against the rules of language.

16 wrote: Dillon Levenque wrote: 16 wrote: could be alot worse tho if you are a proper englisher. like the interwebz common language coulda turned out to be french (: Oh, man. Val is going to come down on you like une tonne de briques for that! I thought the most interesting part of the article had to do with the 'new' words. Combining words to make new ones, or using lesser definitions of existing words to use them in new ways. Very cool. lol i hope not about Valerie. i was just think about them poor english and americans who would all have to learn how to mangle french (: + yes i think so as well about the combining in new ways like i am prepone the convo with Valerie (: That's 'pre-pone' - with a hyphen. You can't go round inventing new words and grammar, just because you want to

I keep seeing investors mentioned in all sorts of threads. Does anyone know what 'investors' arrangements or details that LL have? To be honest, I think the idea of investors doesn't belong here at all. Suppose LL got some investment capital early on. What happens then? Do the investors leave their money in and just take a cut of the profits? Or do they get paid off over time with a substantial profit? I don't know. Maybe investment capitalists make various types of arrangements. I know from a UK TV programme (Dragons' Den) that the investors get to own a percentage of the business, but it's not a loan. It's a partnership, and what happens to the business happens to all the partners. I think that another way of investing is as a high interest loan. So what kind of investors does LL have - if any? Do you know? And, if you don't know, why inject the argument that investors won't accept some things, with the implication that they'll pull their money out, or stop "risking their money"? The latter sounds like LL can only continue in business because investors keep on investing, and I don't believe that at all. Not after all these years. So, all in all, I don't think that 'investors' have anything to do with this discussion. You stated some decline percentages - lost private sims and decreasing usership. But remember that SL was going very well when it had a lot fewer private sims and active users than it has right now, and I don't believe for a second that it kept going back then because of continued money injections.

16 wrote: i know is lots of english people go wut wut when they see their language get mangled sometimes I've never gone "wut wut" in my life. It sounds like an underpowered motorcyle engine and I wouldn't know how to make such a sound :smileytongue:

Porky Gorky wrote: Well technically Tyche Shepherd did the checking over at the grid survey site. I just read the data and formed an opinion. So in the event that it all goes belly up I can just blame Tyche and slip away unnoticed like Keyser Söze. Ok then. It'll mainly be Tyche's fault and not yours. But you must bear some responsibilty for spreading it around

I'm right already. If SL closes before 2014, it will definitely your fault for doing that extra checking. You will have caused it. So I won't take your bet because it wouldn't be fair of me to take your money on an absolute cert

Your view of making a living in SL is wrong, and you were wrong when you intentionally misquoted what I said. You said that my experience was not evidence that it could be done and my evidence proved that, not only can it be done, but also that it IS done. Even in the post I'm replying to (immediately above this post) you said I must be kidding about things you attributed to me even though I never said anything like them.. You've been wrong about the RL living aspect of SL and, to back up your mistakes, you've had to resort to attributing to people (me) things they didn't say. You've been digging a hole for yourself and I suggest you drop it before it gets too deep. Incidentally, I didn't say that I made a living 2 years ago. That's something else you invented and attributed to me. I said I decided to let the store fade over 2½ years ago. It had been making a living for me for a couple of years before that and it continued to make a living for me a long time after that - at least 1½ years more. It's still making worthwhile RL money for me but it's no longer enough to be an RL living here in the UK. Honestly, if you're going to discuss something seriously, you really do need to discuss accurately and avoid inventing things. When you write what you invent about people, other people may believe it at the time they read it. But when the target corrects what you've invented, everyone sees that you've just been inventing stuff, and it's you who is on the wrong end of it.

Porky Gorky wrote: I spent time analysing the data for 2012 and changed my mind to some degree. I don't think SL will remain sustainable through to 2014. If SL doesn't make it to 2014, it'll be your fault.

Just drag your own picture (which is merely a texture) from your inventory onto an existing picture. If you are allowed to edit the existing picture, your own picture/texture will replace the existing picture/texture. There is no undo when you delete something. As has already been said, the wall will be in your trash so you can rez it again. But then you'll need to place it in position and that isn't so easy if you haven't used the Edit box before. The best thing to do is what was also said above. If the is copyable, you'll stiull have the original in your inventory. So delete the house you rezzed and start again.

Masami Kuramoto wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: You gave the impression that LL has not provided the means to make an RL living from SL. This is what you wrote:- "From the creator's point of view, this would be acceptable if LL's platform helped them make a living from the content they upload.". I said they have provided the help to do that, by provoding the means to do it, and I gave an example of someone actually doing it. You agreed that they have provided the means, so your agreement is the opposite of what you said earlier. Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote and you really meant that LL should hold the creators' hands and lead them into making RL livings from SL by doing the selling for them, or by making users go to their stores in large numbers, or some idiotic thing like that. Providing the technical means alone doesn't help if there is no sufficiently large customer base to sell content to. SL's economy has many elements of a Ponzi scheme, where each participant is relying on even more people coming after him. As soon as the influx declines, the system becomes unsustainable. Let's look at the facts again: the number of private regions is decreasing, the size of occupied mainland is decreasing, the number of inworld shops is decreasing, many creators "tier down" and offer their products on the web marketplace only. If fewer and fewer creators can afford their own land, what does this tell about their ability to make a living? Your own example doesn't even work as anecdotal counter-evidence. "I could make a living in SL, but I choose not to." That's like the smoker who could quit at any time but "chooses" not to. The truth is, if you do decide to re-enter the market, someone else's sales will decline, because each customer dollar can be spent only once. We can't make a living merely by selling prims to one another; the money has to come from outside sources. Ok. First off, LL never made any claims that users could make RL livings from SL just by opening a shop. So what's your problem? Second, there is a sufficiently large userbase to make an RL living from SL. What you have to do is sell your stuff to them, and that doesn't mean merely opening a store, believing that the system owners should provide customers who buy from you. If you want to make money in SL, you have to work at it - just like in RL. Third, SL is nothing like a ponzi sceme - not by any stretch of intelligent imagination. If you think it is, you'd better explain your reasoning in real detail, with accurate comparisons between SL and a ponzi scheme. Fourth, the fact that SL is on a very slow decline does not mean that there aren't enough users for someone to make an RL living here. How many tens of thousands of daily users do you want for there to be enough users to make a living from? Fifth, my own experience works as perfect evidence to prove that you are wrong. All you've done is prove that you don't read too well - when you wrote that I said "I could make ..." when, in fact, I'd written that I did make a very decent RL living from SL. Later I chose to let it slide. I made such a decent RL living from SL that it's been over 2½ years since I decided to let it slide and I still make enough RL money from it to make it worthwhile keeping open. I wasn't stupid enough to simply shut off the flow of money. Incidentally, I'm far from the only one who made that kind of money in SL. Did you try to do it yourself? If you did, did you fail? And if you failed, is that why you're so down on SL - because the system owners let you down? And finally, I'm still in the market (I didn't say my store had closed. It hasn't) but, of course, if a shop opens and makes some sales, other shops will have fewer sales because of it. The size of the pie is finite. Dynamic but finite. I am talking the whole of life here, and not just SL. So do you have a point in mentioning that? Do you think SL trading should be different to RL trading? It seems you do because you want the sales to be handed to you on a plate instead of having to actually compete. Can you tell me where to get a ticket to this cloud cuckoo land that you live in. It sounds like a really good place to be. I could make a fortune there without lifting a finger, and then come back to the real world and I'd be rich

My view is that, although LL is focussing on other things, SL generates so much money for the company that they wouldn't be stupid enough to close it down until it is necessary. It's pretty much like my store. I lost interest years ago and decided to close it but not until it isn't producing worthwhile RL money for me. Also, they are still adding/developing/tweaking stuff for SL, so they aren't just letting it fade away like my store. They actually need SL to finance other things.

iCade wrote: Are there even any mods on on sundays? @.@ I've no idea but if there aren't, then this forum is pretty much done for the day. It's certainly not modded 24/7.

But my nonsense is only aimed at the most beautiful of people :smileywink:

ooOOooo :heart:

I'd still have taken the bet I know that SL has been on the decline for a few years now, but it's been a very slow decline so I never had the sense of it's impending demise that you had.

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