Kadah Coba

At least they figured out early on that the backup wouldn't work versus years from now.

Looking at it again for the first time in a while, I'm not sure if its actually AVsitter, I was going off someone else telling me it was using AVsitter, and going off the accumulative script time we were seeing on other rez'd things that were actually using AVsitter back when we were doing that audit, I was inclined to believe it was. Looks like its using something called "Perfect Sitter". This is the item is question: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Big-Campfire-Style-2/2713204 These are some of the main objects from one copy of it: I retract my rant about AVsitter then, the other objects here that are using it aren't nearly as bad as this other actual POS.

Which is more than could/can be said for the default animate permissions. The worst ones are these sitting circle things (I'll post a marketplace link later when I find it). Its got like a dozen separate places for single people to sit, though it may also have places for more 2 and 3 to get together. If there were an equal number of places to sit that were separate object instead of the single one, there'd be no difference in resource usage other than being harder to track. AVsitter's number of scripts used is quite high, the idle script time when not in use is rather high, multiply it by an order of magnitude by grouping a bunch together and it becomes obvious. One to a few = Nice thing, not a big deal. Dozens = This is why we can't have nice things. I think that is because the intent was single scoped for residents to create Linden Realm type experiences and not everything else that we've done instead.

Regarding AVsitter, I don't know if this is normal for it or just it being horridly misused, but it does use too much resources. The highlighted are AVSitter things. The top one is something I thing someone was using at this time. #2-4 here are always on top and are just some sitting circles with maybe a dozen seperate instances of AVSitter in its prims. #5 is a script monitor board I was working on and still uses too much script time. #8 is me. The lower highlighted are single instanced AVSitter things (there are a lot more than shown). Newer stuff tends to use it and my friend has quite a lot of those newer things rezed. Back to exp. I'm guessing many of the concerns that were brought up before have been worked around now. Yay. Though one issue I see with the single exp key per user is that it could sorta prevent making a traditional experience as LL intended and also selling stuff that uses experiences. Say that I finally deiced to do something with my sim and make "Kadah's super gay yiffy fun time" experience, I couldn't reasonably then go sell something like a region wide TP system or an AVsitter competitor without some potential negative side effects either from the dumb name I chose or people unwantingly getting pulled in to an unpleasant sim experience due to unrelated permission granting. Same would go for selling complete different types of experiences, like a sim TP system and super adult rez-a-home toys. Yes, I could solve that issue by premiuming up an alt and using their key, but then that's a second premium account I've had to maintain and given how many issues I've had over the years just giving LL my money to pay for the one... lol. It would be nice if LL would offer paid extras for exp tools, like additional keys, additional KVS storage, transferring keys to another user, etc. If priced fairly, I wouldn't mind that. But the same goes for tier, if they ever lower that, I would actually consider making a traditional region/multi-region based experience.

It currently does not seem possible to view mature places, or anything other than general. The link it provides for changing it is a dead end since what it says to do has already be set on every account I've tested.

I didn't mean that you couldn't sell them, just that it adds a lot of annoying extra steps and potential downsides for the buyer. I do not like AVsitter, or at least the way it is often implimented. It uses far too many scripts that use a surprising amount of script time. Last time I check, over half the idle script time and memory on my sim was just AVsitter stuff. According to SL previously, experience keys expires when the owner no long has premium. I don't think its been stated what happens to KVS when that happens, but for sure at least access to the data would be lost. I should go back to experimented with KVS again, I had wanted to make an export-import and backup tool for it since LL didn't.

I don't think experiences have caught on cause they are still too limited. Limit one per premium account: prevents you from really making more than one thing properly.. Indented for creator/user of the exp to host it on their land, but land costs way too much for that to be viable. Cannot transfer to another, so not exactly something one can do commission work without many extra complications. Can't really sell anything that uses experiences since: Can't use the buyer's exp key since that would require recompiling scripts The creator would have to maintain premium forever or the experience becomes invalid. KVS is likely the most useful feature here and its extremely limited by the above an more. Still simper to use external DB (hell, I've got pure LSL methods with less limitations). Etc.

At least according to posts in that forum, the plan was supposedly to make it public after it left beta.

The Experience forum doesn't seem to have survived the migration, or at least access to it. It never was made fully public as planned after release. There was much info there and the wiki is lacking. Much of exp tools was lacking... Do we just use the LSL Scripting forum instead now?

Sayrah Parx wrote: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-41196 "At least you tried." Honestly, I think XPTools development is dead and final. It was too little, far too late. Like many server features in the last number of years, it seems like it went stale on a shelf for a very long time after the initial project, then got the one cycle dust off and pushed out.

Lithium is terrible in general. This is most likely why logins are broken. I can't remember the last time I had to literally write raw HTML just to make a simple and basic message, like this one. Though I do have a hint for how long ago that was, the p tag wasn't around yet or at least not in wide use.

Qie Niangao wrote: I'm not sure how they chose recipients for that email. Not all my alts got it -- including one that's Premium -- but some did. I've never owned my own Estate, if that made any difference (apparently not). Phil Deakins wrote: As you suspected, the email wasn't sent to just those who own, or had owned, a private sim. The content made that clear. The first part was about the 30% increase in LI for all land, and ended with, "... and it's a great time to get your own space!", which is aimed at non-landowners. The second part was only about increasing a private region's LI to 30k. So the email covered everyone, regardless of whether or not they own, or have owned, land of any size. I suppose it could have been sent only to those who own, or have owned, land though, offering ex-land owners a temptation to get some again. Knowing LL, it sounds about right that an email mainly for land owners wouldn't hit any Premium or estate owners. Their email consistency on everything has been really poor the last few years, more so than normal. I've had my estate since 2011 and mainland since 2008 or 2009. I've gotten maybe 3 emails regarding land announcements that were also blogs over the last 7-8 years. The most often email announcement I do get is that one for their "50%" of premium deal which isn't a good deal and its always to my currently premium account. I'll have to check with my renter (had to rent out half my region to keep justifying paying for it) to see if they would be interested in boosting it to 30k and splitting the increase.

Everything old is new again, I seem to remember this exact thing happening before at least once. I've been unable to type a reply fast enough before it logs me out while on the post message page. No other navigation is done and it will just error about invalid auth token if I take longer than a minute to submit the post. I've been having to type all replies in notenpad (in HTML because the WYSIWYG editor is trash) and pasting in after freshly logging back in and going to reply. Even its still thrown invalid tokens at me.

Nice to know it is finally out. I didn't get that email, nor did any of my random testing alts, but got other random SL related emails. Sounds about right. Did it mention where to go to do the increase? There's nothing different on the account pages, guessing its a support ticket thing. ((Seriously Lithium, can I please have longer than one minute to type a post before you start throwing invalid auth ticket errors and such?))

Sayrah Parx wrote: The two problems I've thought about a lot are the KVP store not being a separate premium feature, and not being able to transfer a key to another account. I agree, KVP by itself would really handy for a lot of other projects. If it was also a seperate feature, that would be nice, even if it has far less than the apparently 128MB storage limit (this limit is not documented...). As for transferring KVP to another account, I think you could work around this by using llKeysKeyValue and llReadKeyValue to export the KVP everything in database. The only issue I can see would be due to the limitation of llKeysKeyValue and KVP would need to not be getting any keys added or removed while running the export. Sayrah Parx wrote: I know it works a lot better for me to use external webhosting with a mysql database, for a few major reasons. The first is that I can send and receive the data using less script memory (the script memory limit being another issue), than I would by having convoluted methods of dealing with the KVP store. The second is that I actually have interfaces to the data, and it's actually possible to manage it effectively. It's scary to imagine having to manage data on the KVP store for anything non-trivial. So the KVP store isn't useful for any large-scale application, but it's the deciding factor in limiting experience keys to premium accounts Agreed. The nice part about using sql is that you can have very script efficient to get and update data. KVP works like a shared string indexed 1D array with entirely async access. Its only main advantage is the slightly quicker initial development cycle to setup: convoluted data access methods vs setting up external mysql host. Sayrah Parx wrote: You can sort of collaborate with people within a single group, which is an annoying way to share it but that's not a major issue. The major issue is that the entire experience depends on the account that created it, due to it not being transferable. So it's very time-consuming to create experiences for other people, if you want to sell them without the scripts being full-perm. You need to have them create their own experience, and add you to a group with a role that lets you contribute, and recompile your scripts. So it's not possible to simply sell an experience-based product on the marketplace. You have to include a note about contacting the creator in order to have them set it up...and hope that they understand your language. Then you have to rez your own copy that you'll transfer later, after setting it up with their own key, after they add you to their group. Because you can only compile a script with an experience in a rezzed object. So if we could create a separate key for every product, it would be possible to sell an experience-based product with much less hassle. Had to reread that a couple times to realize you meant selling a product for others to make their own experiences. And yeah, that would be impossible under the current model. Another way I could see this working is that the product relies on full-perm relay script which the buyer would recompile using their own experience key and that all the other scripts would access in order to do any experience based actions. Very messy. I would be wrong to sell an experience like you exampled that uses the developers experience key instead of the buyer's who's bought the product for setting up an experience on their own land. Its bad for the developer since they responsible name for the experience somebody else is running. Its bad for the buyer since what happens if the developer stops paying for premium? Sayrah Parx wrote: So these two issues alone cause an experience to require a very dedicated collaboration, where it doesn't matter who owns the key, or require one person to simultaneously be owner, operator, designer and programmer. It's not something you can easily buy or hire an unknown third party to work on. Another issue about collaborating and single experience per account, KVP doesn't offer any security. If you have perms to (re)compile a script for the experience, you have full permission to all of the experience owner's KVP data. Since there is no built in export or backup, or a way to reliable do the workaround export I mentioned above without some means within the experience's scripts for suspending KVP key changes, a disgruntled collaborator could completely destroy the owner's KVP data. Indeed, the commissioning the creation of experiences is limited by the current design to rather close and trusted collaboration. I can't simply be "unbox, rez and enjoy" without the developer literally selling access to their experience or doing fully custom compiles with full interaction between the buyer and devs. I was going to say that what you example doesn't personally apply to me or was something I considering in my original post. But after thinking about it while writing up this response (in notepad, using html, because Lithium), I've realized that one of the future products of a project I've been working on actually is a perfect example for a packaged and customizable "build an experience" product. Great, now I'm in both camps, experiences are unsuitable for building my own experience outside of use as teleporters, and experiences are unsuitable for use in a sellable product. Ugh. ((Wow. I think I've never made a post here that Lithium hasn't eaten at least once. So glad I wrote this in notepad instead. Literally went Refresh Page > Reply > Paste Message > Post and got auth token expired. ETA: Right after I posted this, I went to subscribe to the Experience Tools Forum, got the auth token expiry error again and I was logged out from community.secondlife.com. Wow this has gotten so broken. lol))

Bumping this old thread because it seems this forum isn't actually public outside of direct links to it. eg. It does not appear under Forums > Creation Forum > Experience Tools Forum list.

Safra Nitely wrote: I talked about somthing for the land owners the people witht he priave full regions, and prims: My commen at on the fact tath we were to get 20,000 prims compaird tot he mainlands 22,000 prims. and the fact some of were paying 295 not even the lower 195. Well a few days ago it was bought to my attention about lindens NOD in this direction.... For $30 more a month you get an EXTRA 10K prims, for thoes paying the private region fees, now for the first time i have to say thier is acturly a real and hoest reward for owning private region. Has it released for private regions yet? I haven't heard anything since the announcement nor noticed a difference on my sim. \

Alwin Alcott wrote: So you dont look at the forums, you don't look at the blogs, you don't look at SLU, you been busy, you been ill, and you didn't look for any discussion or whatever.... but it's LL fault you didn't know... sure.. I was just venting for having missed it, doesn't matter now. lol

Its been a year now, or so, is anyone making much use out of experiences? I haven't really seen many creators making them. The few uses I've seen have all fixed single locations; mostly just for intra-region teleport and a couple semi-Linden realm type things with most having fairly high prices to play (which is understandable giving the land requirement and the high cost of land). What's going on with phase 2? Are we only limited to one experience per premium account? I could not find any non-beta info related to this. Really? KVP is limited to land that has explicitly allowed the experience? Ouch. What happened to Grid Scope Experiences? I couldn't find any non-beta info relating to them. Personally, I've looked at it myself a few times for things I was working on that were not for fixed location use, and there were too many limitations over using existing options. KVP seemed like it could be nice, but the limits and exclusions are insurmountable, mostly all due to the requirement for land allowed experiences. For about as much initial effort, setting up an external mysql server would allow more functionality without the limitations KVP has. The experience permissions feature set seems like it be useful for basic stuff like teleporters and simple games, but is either too limited or completely unneeded for anything I've poked at in the last few years now. I can understand the land restrictions on this. I've started to look at it again in the context of fixed location use, and not really much difference. I do actually have a region, which after many years does have a public element now, and I'm possibly going to setup an experience for some teleporters. Beyond that I'm not seeing much else I could do within the context of the place (much preexisting use of RLV). The more I think about it, the more I can see why the few resident created experiences have rather high prices to play and maybe why where are so few. An experience would have to make around $61/week to break even on having a single region. That's a pretty big gap to jump to make something. (I had forgotten how awful Lithium forums where to use.... I ended up having to type this whole short post in notepad instead of starting over constantly. Ugh.)

Qie Niangao wrote: Kadah Coba wrote: A few extra prims is nice but I just found out about the buy down program and I'm pissed that I didn't hear about it till now. That was actually something, why did that only get a quiet blog post? I barely get any value out of SL anymore and had to recently rent out half my sim to keep justifying the costs. Honestly, that was the hottest discussion topic everywhere this whole year. If you didn't know about it and you didn't go out of your way to avoid it, you must be the most unlucky news consumer ever. I mean, everything including even the hike in Lindex exchange rates has been blamed on Estate owners exercising the grandfathering buy-down option. (That one in particular is probably nonsense, but it's been a prominent topic nonetheless.) It wasn't advertised at all, at least not via email, and I don't have a habit of looking at the LL blog or SL fourm (Lithium is a pain) pretty much ever. I've been busy IRL, mostly with health issues, and haven't been on the SLU forums much at all this year. I didn't see any discussion of this in any in-world groups either, though with as much fail as those are, it means little.

Nalytha wrote: As an outsider though, I must confess that I don't understand why the price of owning land is not reduced. More people could afford it and create the much needed content that is so desperately needed to make the world feel more lived in. It's sad to see so much land go to waste simply because costs are too high (I'm not saying that's the only reason for abandoned land). I have one private estate right now. If they lowered the price of land, I would likely buy more land and try to recreate some of the long lost social spaces that used to exist so many years ago. But at $295 per month, plus $600 (which used to be $1000) setup fee, per region, its impossible to get close to breaking half way to even without shoving so much revenue generating junk (malls, renters, ect) in to a region, that it makes it too laggy for many users to desire being there. Mainland might have been an option, but there is so little Adult mainland (the restrictions on Mature since Adult came in are too great). Getting a decent chuck in Zindra is extremely expensive and the lag caused by others in those regions is extreme even with the half currently for sale still being completely empty. Thinking about it, the extra prims on Zindra are just only going to make the lag there worse....

A few extra prims is nice but I just found out about the buy down program and I'm pissed that I didn't hear about it till now. That was actually something, why did that only get a quiet blog post? I barely get any value out of SL anymore and had to recently rent out half my sim to keep justifying the costs.

I've used it on Lolipop and Marshmellow just fine.

Well this was long overdue to be undone.

Innula Zenovka wrote: "Griefer Monday" Haha, I forgot about that. That was awesome, trying to have user group meetings about it and everyone keep getting dispersed. If memory servers right, that was before the user side of it was being worked on and the exploit was using unexposed LSL functions that were only to be used by Linden Realms at the time. I think the fix was that permissions dialog that was added for any experience tools to act on an avatar needed in a private region. AFAIK, that was completed and rolled out in 2012.