Question for In-World Shop Renters.

[November Velde]

Recently I have been doing research on shop locations. While the prices vary, there seems to be a common theme among the rules that are set out. One of them, I simply do not understand and it is my hope the good folks of this forum can shed some light onto it for me.

The one I don't understand is when they forbid the use of vendors that rez demos. Most of the time this rule is explained that the reason is they are too script heavy. Now...the one I use has one script in the actual vendor and one in the piece that is rez'd.

Is two scripts for a vending machine truly too much?

[Chelsea Malibu]

Rezzers are huge lag creators.  Just a few temp rezzers can burry a sim.  It's not just the scripts, the lag it causes on the physics engine as well.

Vending scripts are very different and can be done to create very little lag.  Another good policy is to avoid anything that runs constantly like animated textures.

[Toysoldier Thor]

The fact that the number of scripts are low (in your case only 2), it matters how complicated and/or badly written eac script it that generates lag.  You can have a prim with 10 scripts in them but the code in these scripts could generate very little lag and then you can have one script that could bring a sim to its knees.

As such - as a general policy (since they dont make policies to suit individual situations) a lot of mall owners restrict or do not allow some types or even any scripts (depending). 

I have been in one mall that was very large and popular and the owner of the mall was VERY VERY strict on script usage in order to ensure the best visitor / customer experience.  She was also fair in that she allowed script usage BUT she did a personal assessment of your store's script load.  She even worked with you to reduce load by pointing out and helping you reduce wasted script loads (i.e. running a texture animation script that does not need to run or even exist after a texture has been animated).

As such, you may or may not have a demo rezzer that is laggy (chances are that it is laggy), but the policy is developed on a grander scale based on history of a past issue.  Demo Rezzers are normally very laggy.

[November Velde]

Hmm...very interesting. Is there a way to determine the lag level of a vendor? I can imagine many of the older modles to be laggy as scripting in general was done differently, with different priorities and bottom lines; it just needed to work - no matter the cost.

This though, confuses me (seems to be a running theme in the world of Nov lol )

To quote Toysoldier Thor: "As such - as a general policy (since they dont make policies to suit individual situations) a lot of mall owners restrict or do not allow some types or even any scripts (depending). "

If you had a vendor without a script, would not it be simply a prim with a picture on it?

[Zanara Zenovka]

It's not the scripts themselves, it's the rezzing.

To maintain the illusion of a rezzed object, temp rezzers repeatedly rez (and delete) the whole object every minute or so, which is a lot of stress on a region.

 

[Tiffy Vella]

I can appreciate why landlords are careful abouty keeping lag down, because as soon as there are issues with it, everyone's experience deteriorates,  they often begin to lose paying tenants.

Rezzers regenerate temporary prims just before they derezz, which means every 50-55 seconds. They run constantly. Depending on the scripting, they can be very laggy, or a bit laggy, and one way you can measure the scripts (in Phoenix) is to right click on your object, and flip through more on the pie menu until you come to "script score". This will tell you the script count, plus the total memory used by those scripts in that object.

I've used rezzers to temporarily show demos in my mainstore (where I'm the only tenant to annoy). A method you might like to discuss with your landlord is a system where the item is only rezzed for a period under a minute when the rezzer is touched by a customer. This would significantly cut the amount of work the script is doing, as long as it's not constantly listening.

Or buy land, then you have more control (I know this is not always the best answer of course, but it's always an option)

[PeterCanessa Oh]

More confusion between 'temp-rezzers' (bad) and 'holo-rezzers' (not necessarily bad).  Here is my boiler-plate explanation.

"Temp rezzer" is a particular idea that LSL scripting allows where the rezzed items are set "TEMP_ON_REZ" which means SL will automatically delete them within 1 minute of rezzing.  'Temp-rezzed' objects do not count against a parcel or sim prim-limits so are attractive to people who are trying to get something for nothing.  The setting was intended for weapons and similar that fire a large-ish number of bullets as automatic deletion means there doesn't have to be a clean-up script in each rezzed object.  The drawback with temp-rezzers comes when people try to use them to rezz an object more permanently, especially if it is large.  This causes lag for a number of reasons:

• The rezzing script has to re-rezz the object every minute, or more frequently, so has to keep running
• The sim takes time to rez objects in-world and large, multi-prim objects take longer
• Objects that are selected or sat on won't be deleted, so multiple copies are rezzed unless the temp-rezzer stops
• Any scripts in the rezzed objects have to be constantly started, run, destroyed, etc.

The logic of a temp-rezzer is broadly: on demand{1. rezz object, 2. go back to 1.}

A close relative of the temp-rezzer that is much more useful (and kind to the sim) is a 'holo-rezzer'.  This 'temporarily' rezzes objects by relying on each one to have a clean-up script of its own.  An entire building, for instance, is just rezzed as normal (once) but contains a script that will delete it on command.  This uses prims as normal for the building but doesn't have to keep re-rezzing it so doesn't cause lag like a temp-rezzer.

The logic of a holo-rezzer is broadly: on demand(1. tell existing object(s) to delete themselves, 2. rezz new object}

With this in mind a holo-rezzer can be used to rez any number of buildings/objects, one at a time.  This means you only need a shop area with sufficient space and prims for the largest thing you will be rezzing (plus the rezzer, of course, but that only needs to be a 1-prim vendor).  A potential customer uses the rezzer/vendor to select the build that interests them and to rez it.  They can then look around it at will, changing to others when they wish.

[November Velde]

I spent a good part of my day yesterday testing my vendor. It is a holovendor and, had I known there was a difference, I would have stated that at first. Huh, the more you know.

My conclusion is that there is far more sim health activity when someone enters a region than there is when one of the demos are rez'd via this vendor of mine. As well, I spoke to several sim owners who have this same vendor running, smooth and seamlessly alongside heavily scripted objects, for one example: a race sim.

It is not my intent to shove it in mall owner's faces that they're using outdated information but, rather to educate and inform them of advances they might not have known. Provide cold-hard facts and stats and hope they can see changing might be a good thing.  I probably will not get anywhere with it  however I will still try to make in-world shopping a little nicer.

[Toysoldier Thor]

November.....

Before you even consider "educating" or "shoving new knowledge" in  the mall owner's face that HoloVendors are the new improved way that should allow you to rez demos...

Remember that a limitation of the HoloVendors is that by Rezzing... the prims of the Demo "count" to the parcel/sim's total prim count.  So, if you want to rent from this mall owner and you are normally aloted 100 prims for your store in the mall and you use 75 of the prims for your store setup and displays etc....  then you are only allowed 25 more prims.  If you are HoloVending a 100 prim demo, then your vendor will not work or it will work if the Mall owner does not hard limit your prims but you are risking the mall owners parcel/sim hitting its limit.

Also... rezzing and on demand un-rezzing still causes lag when it happens.  Depending how often it happens - you still could be impacting the sim... plus the holovendor rezzers do have scripts running in them while rezzed and are listening (polling) for state changes to instruct them to unrez.  This listening while rezzed also generates lag.

So... again, the policy was not written by the mall owners to specifically hit your store activity.  They were developed keeping in mind that dozens or even 100's of store renters are all operating in the mall with you.  What might not be a lot of lag for you - even with HoloVendors - builds up with many of the renters do similar things.

Mall Owners have to look at the big picture in order to provide a happy lag free experience for visitors to their mall and your store.

If you really want the freedom or need the ability to have demo rezzers - the best option is for you to get your own sim or parcel.

[PeterCanessa Oh]

---

November Velde wrote:

...It is not my intent to shove it in mall owner's faces that they're using outdated information...

---

Mine is :matte-motes-evil-invert:

Toysoldier makes good points.  If something breaks prim-allowances it should not be permitted.  Even if a particular shop stays within limits we all have to accept the fact that there is sim-load (maybe lag) associated with rezzing anything.

With those points in mind I would not object to a 'holo' rezzer - as you say there is probably more sim load from an avatar arriving.  As I'm being told-off for saying in another forum, it is only the constant re-rezzing of temp-rezzers I object to.

[November Velde]

Hmmm...just when I think I am starting to understand...things go sideways again. lol

Perhaps the holovenders are temp rezzers? Just with a prettier name? There is no pirm count increase when a demo is rez'd...so...it is a temp rezzer?

I'm very confused.

And again, I have no intent, whatsoever, to "shove" anything in anyone's face. I would like to say something along the lines of  "Your policy is xyz, would you consider looking at this?" I am not so brash to say "I am right, you are wrong, and because of it, I believe you to be an idiot" Nothing like that.

But, the more information I gather, the less I seem to know. Go figure.

[PeterCanessa Oh]

Here is an easy way to check whether it's a 'temp' or 'holo' rezzer:

1. Rezz something
2. Delete the rezzer (not the 'something')
3. Wait 2 minutes
4. If there's still 'something' there it was a holo-rezzer, if not it was (probably) a temp-rezzer

[if a holo-rezzer doesn't stay there it doesn't matter.  If a temp-rezzer doesn't stay there it can't refresh the temp object.  The 'probably' comes because some holo-rezzers put an auto-tidy into the things they rezz ... that's a whole argument more :-( ]

ETA for below ... don't you just love exceptions :-)  The definition of TEMP_ON_REZ says "It lives until the next garbage collection cycle (about 1 minute). ... the garbage collector may run sooner than expected." (http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/PRIM_TEMP_ON_REZ) for which we can read "when the sim gets around to it" but doesn't help with something significantly over 1 minute - which I'd say 90s is.  My guess is that this is a 'holo' rezzer in which the rezzed object asks now and again  - say every 90s - if it's still wanted and deletes itself if it doesn't get a 'yes' reply.  That's nice because it means things don't get left lying around even though they don't need to be constantly re-rezzed when they are wanted.  On the other hand it doesn't actually help you identify the rezzer.  Ultimately, if you never see the prim-count being updated then it has to be a 'temp'-rezzer but at 90s the count might not be updating quickly enough to tell some/most of the time.  Ho hum... beaten by that one

[November Velde]

The "something" stays for about 90 seconds after the vendor is deleted.

[Sassy Romano]

---

Chelsea Malibu wrote:

 Another good policy is to avoid anything that runs constantly like animated textures.

---

Depends on how it's done.  Constantly changing texture to a new one such as a scrolling vendor that auto scrolls is bad.  A proper "cell" animated texture will cause no lag because it's animated viewer side and the texture is all one texture anyway so it doesn't mater if it's animated or not, you download the texture.

[Sassy Romano]

---

Toysoldier Thor wrote:

Mall Owners have to look at the big picture in order to provide a happy lag free experience for visitors to their mall and your store.

---

and some have no idea either way.  Like the converation that I had where they moved the mall into the sky so that the scripts didn't lag nearby avatars.

Try it, put Excel in the top corner of your monitor and Outlook in the other opposite corner, notice the huge performance change?

[Phil Deakins]

The OP asked about rezzing vendors, and didn't say anything about temp rezzers, but it seems to have been assumed that it's about temp rezzers. So, about the mall owner and rezzing vendors (not temp rezzers)...

The mall owner is perfectly free to decide what s/he wants and doesn't want regarding rezzers, and tenants have to accept it, or go elsewhere.

Rezzers are perfectly fine, and they don't lag sims, or produce any noticeable negative effect for anyone. They usually rez an object when requested, and not at any other time. To say that the scripts in them cause lag is nonsense. Scripts in anything at all have a miniscule impact on a sim, but mostly it simply isn't noticed. Rezzers are no different to any other scripted object, such as furniture. Rezzing an object impacts a sim, of course, but not detrimentally.

I use about 10 or 11 'rez on request' rezzers in my store and the sim it's in consistently has 8-9 milliseconds of spare time per frame.

Temp rezzers which, according to the OP, this thread isn't about, run a script which is irrelevant to sim performance. For the mall store, a temp rezzer would presumably rezz an object, and another is deleted, about once a minute. No big deal as far as the sim is concerned. What the mall owner presumably wants to avoid is lots of tenants, using lots of temp rezzers, to keep their prims counts down. Now that would have a negative impact on the sim if it happened. And presumably that's why the mall owner bans rezzers.

I think that banning all rezzers - temp and non-temp - is overkill, because i don't think that non-temp rezzers, used by lots of tenants, would have a noticeable impact on the sim - unless they all went off together, of course, but that's highly unlikely to happen. But the owner is free to have whatever rules s/he wants, and tenants have to live with it or go elsewhere.

 

ETA (having read the rest of the thread)

A mall owner's concern about rezzers rezzing objects that cause the tenant's prim count to go over their limit, perhaps causing other objects to be returned, or even impacting the objects of other tenants, is an excellent point. For that reason alone, I can understand mall owners banning rezzers of any kind.

[Mikki Miles]

---

Sassy Romano wrote: Try it, put Excel in the top corner of your monitor and Outlook in the other opposite corner, notice the huge performance change?

Great! It works even better when I move it outside of the screen!

[BlackMagi Darkwatch]

We rented a parcel once where the policy was no holovendors - after showing the holovendor to the landlord it was approved for use so it might be worth speaking with the landlord. Our builds are not set temp_on_rez so we do have to make sure we've plenty of spare prims! We also use a vendor (web configuratble) with 1 script in the rezzer and 1 in the object being rezzed.

 

Black