small in real life but not allowed in SL?

[Kylie Jaxxon]

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Penny Patton wrote:

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Kylie Jaxxon wrote:

Dana, is this also true when you purchase a shape that is marketed as petite/short...the proportions are still off?

---

 That can only be answered on a case by case basis.

 The problem is, most shapes you see in SL, from those provided by Linden Lab, to most of those sold by other residents, are made by people without a strong grasp of proportion or a good understanding of the appearance editor, so regardless of size they're often badly proportioned.

 It's impossible to tell whether a shape is properly proportioned unless the creator provides demos for you to try before purchasing or the vendor art they display is made to show off how well proportioned the shape is.

---

Thanks, Penny, that makes sense.  Since I'm not a content creator and don't know the ins & outs of that kind of thing, wasn't sure if they work with the same type of tools/sliders that we do, but yes, knowledge would be a key thing.

 

[Penny Patton]

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Dana Hickman wrote:

and the height slider allows AV's to be shorter than that minimal thickness dictates. That results in midget or troll arms/lower legs, as well as hips with the thighs pushed too far up into them.

---

 Also ,this isn't entirely true. You run into issues with the torso and height of the hips when going for extreme shortness before you run into minimal thickness issues.

 The "troll/midget" look more often comes from two things.

 First, people tend to lack an understanding of what it takes to scale a shape down so they wind up squashing their shape, rather than consistently scaling it down in all dimensions. There's more to it than simply the body thickness sliders, too. Multiple sliders affect things like thickness and height, most people are unaware of that which causes problems.

 Second, SL creates a very scewed ideal of human shape which would make Cosmopolitan look downright homely. SL avatars tend to be stretched like they were put through Willy Wonka's taffy machine. This is so prevailent that even  properly proportioned human shapes tend to look "squashed" in comparison.

[Penny Patton]

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Kylie Jaxxon wrote:

Thanks, Penny, that makes sense.  Since I'm not a content creator and don't know the ins & outs of that kind of thing, wasn't sure if they work with the same type of tools/sliders that we do, but yes, knowledge would be a key thing.

---

 Hee, no problem. Linden Lab really does not make getting a good looking avatar easy. Between the lack of good, well made base shapes for people to start from (the base shapes LL provides are atrociously bad, like the person who made them never saw an actual human body) and the lack of proper guides in the appearance editor LL has made it so you pretty much need to go to art school then take a class on the quirks, bugs and inconsistencies of their own appearance editor to have the knowledge of anatomy it takes to make a good shape.

 It really shouldn't be so difficult. It could easily be extremely simple for anyone of any skill level to create a good looking shape. I'm honestly not sure the management at LL understands how this kills their ability to market SL more successfully.

[Perrie Juran]

Their are a small number of crusaders who are very vocal in their desire to make the height on the Avatar sliders the scale for the SL World.

The only really valid point in their crusade is that it would make for better use of resources in Second Life.  It could allow for needing fewer prims in buildings, allow them to put more buildings and objects, etc, in a given space.

But unless and until Linden Lab jumps on this band wagon it is going to be a headache.

The original sizing of avatars was based on a judgement call based on the original design of the World and the prototype avatar.  http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/120/4d/7240/1.html#post54400

So you have a choice of looking believable in the world as it is currently scaled (believable meaning appearing shorter or taller according to your desire) or looking unbelievable by insisting on using the height measurements without regard for the fact that the SL world as it currently exists is scaled larger.

My recommendation is that until Linden Lab jumps on the accurate measurement band wagon that you scale your self proportionately, that your Avatar looks believable (shorter or taller according to your desire) in the out of scale world. 

You see, unless some one is going around holding a measurement stick up against your Avatar, no one can see the height measurement you have selected for your Avatar.  All they see is that you are shorter or taller, fatter, skinnier, etc.  So quit worrying about the height measurement in the editor.  Shape your self to be shorter proportionate to the World as is.  Even if that means you need to choose a height that is a few inches taller than your RL or desired height in what the editor says.

The bottom line is this, HAVE FUN IN SECOND LIFE.  Don't allow minutia, don't allow straining at gnats and swallowing camels deter you from that.  Because while it does still keep improving, the last thing you are going to find in Second Life is perfection.

 EDITED TO ADD:  This does not mean that I don't think that Linden Lab shouldn't fix the problem.   I think that they should.  Thing is we can try to be dogmatic about it or try to find a happy balance.

[Abbi Sorbet]

Shortness in SL will ALWAYS be a problem & as most said; it's a matter of what your AV looks like. Unfortunately when a lot of us shorties complain that we are percieved as child AVs, it always comes from those that DO look like children. My AV is short & I have freckles & have a tendancy to wear glasses (all 3 are RL me characteristics), but in a sim that is considered to be mature/adult, I make sure that my clothes are more adult related. It's ok if you want your AV to be a pixie, but they're REALLY tiny, so you shouldn't be offended when someone that owns/runs the sim you happen to be in, asks you to change or leave. People that pay for the lands have the final say, so pouting & stomping off saying 'but I'm NOT a child,I'm just short!' when they ask you to change, only makes the point for them.

[Dana Hickman]

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Penny Patton wrote:

---

Dana Hickman wrote:

and the height slider allows AV's to be shorter than that minimal thickness dictates. That results in midget or troll arms/lower legs, as well as hips with the thighs pushed too far up into them.

---

 Also ,this isn't entirely true. You run into issues with the torso and height of the hips when going for extreme shortness before you run into minimal thickness issues.

---

 

You run into all those scaling issues specifically *because* minimal thickness has already been passed and the mesh management has to compensate by skewing the body part. Below a certain point the joints and their protected areas on either side of the joint cannot become smaller, so the program has to merely keep shortening the bone length as you go shorter without also scaling down the joint areas. Below the bottom 15, maybe 20% on the height slider (depending also on the limb length / thickness settings), it's only about the middle third of each body section that actually changes shape any more. The protected areas adjacent to the joints do not and so the middle part away from the joints gets compressed, bulged, and in cases like the lower legs and forearms, skewed and bent offcenter.  That is where troll arms and legs, as well as the little boy hips and the "holding your breath" look come from. It's the fact that you are allowed to pass that point and go even shorter that creates those issues in the first place.

You have to remember I'm talking about minimal joint thickness put in place to preserve proper joint folding during animation, NOT "minimal thickness" in terms of a standard 3D object. They are 2 totally different things.

[JohnnyMercury]

I know someone who has built a few motorcycles in SL, and to get everything to look right when compared to avatars he multiplied the RL dimension by 1.25.  Take your RL height, etc. and multiply by 1.25 and se how your avatar is perceived by others.

[Penny Patton]

Every single one of the avatars from this image is in the bottom 20% or so of the height slider. My own avatar, in the middle, has a height slider setting of exactly 15. Several of them are in the single digits including a height setting of "0". You can actually drop the height slider all the way to 0 without running into problems, so long as you compensate with a dozen or so other sliders to keep all the proportions consistent.

 I get what you're saying, except for the "little boy hips" comment, but if you balance all the sliders well enough as you scale the avatar mesh down you can avoid the issue of stubby, thick looking arms and legs or a squashed torso.

 The issue of "troll arms and legs" comes more from people who don't understand how all of the sliders work together and just squash themselves down using only the height slider.

 I tried to give some more in-depth explanations on the appearance editor and working with smaller shapes in my article "A Matter of Proportion".

[Penny Patton]

---

JohnnyMercury wrote:

I know someone who has built a few motorcycles in SL, and to get everything to look right when compared to avatars he multiplied the RL dimension by 1.25.  Take your RL height, etc. and multiply by 1.25 and se how your avatar is perceived by others.

---

The thing is, we shouldn't need to scale up just to appease people who don't know any better. Things like land are a static size in SL. Ergo, making your avatar larger is the same as making the sim smaller by the same amount. This creates other issues, too, such as reducing the relative size between the average and largest avatars which limits creativity.

[Jo Yardley]

Exactly.

If LL gave us all just normal sized avatars, everyone could build objects, animations, furniture and vehicles for people with realistic scale and then everything would always fit fine for everyone... unless you decide to be an unusual avatar and then you could buy stuff from special creators who make stuff for giants, tinies, etc.

Now you buy stuff and realise it was actually made for giants.

[Dana Hickman]

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Penny Patton wrote:

Every single one of the avatars from this image is in the bottom 20% or so of the height slider. My own avatar, in the middle, has a height slider setting of exactly 15.

---

 

Correct, and every single one of those avatars, including your own, suffer from mesh issues relating to size. This pic is a poor example due to deliberate hiding of the bad thighs, arms, and hips by prim or baggy setting on the clothing. Of those you can actually see, the sharp angles created in mid-thigh, the sunken-in and skewed upper arms, the double hip folds on one of them, as well as the extended joint stretch area in the groin of your own AV (no it's not only the pose) are just a few examples that are clear and obvious. These are things you do NOT get if the AV was sized above the minimal thickness threshold, and you would NOT have to jump through tons of hoops to try hiding the over-compressed mesh deformations with baggy clothing, prim addons, or unnaturally inflating an adjacent body part to blend it in. Of the issues that are inherant in the mesh itself and that do show up on taller AVs as well, those issues are worse.. and sometimes hideously worse on very short AV's. There's no argument here, it is fact.

[Jo Yardley]

I've been realistically scaled for over 2 years now and have to say that these mesh issues never bothered me, I never even noticed them.

Either way, I'd rather be properly scaled and have some mesh issues then be 8ft tall.

[Rowan Villiers]

Ok, there's a couple of issues here that people are only barely touching on- for one, SL is not RL.  I am slightly above average height for a caucasian woman in rl(5'6"), and in SL my slider for height sits at 50- exactly the middle. It makes most of my clothes sit in the right place and stuff like that, so I'm about "average" height in SL.  That is NOT tall, in reference to everything around me as far as builds and most avatars go.  However, my appearance editor says that it equates to about 6.5 feet tall.  That means someone who is my "actual" rl height, in SL, is going to look really tiny next to me.  Also, most people build and make clothes based on SL scale, not rl.  I take mild offense to the deprecating terms being used to describe avatars that fit into SL by people being **bleep** and pretentious about numbers- you're not better than the person who fits into the SL environment just because you make things harder on yourself.  It seems really silly to me to be so determined to let some number... based on WHAT, if not your environment... make SL so much more difficult for you.  Being so picky about "realistic"(come ON people, we can FLY) height is going to mean more time spent editing, on top of getting kicked out of adult sims that have height requirements and everything else.  It-is-not-RL.  If I were you, I would fashion my avi to be shorter TO SCALE, IN SL, instead of fixating on what your height translates to irl.  Find an a building and make yourself the same height you would be in a rl doorway, something.  The simple fact is- "realistic" height is not realistic in SL.  It can make you look like a child.  You don't have to fit into the SL scale if you don't choose, but don't whine because other people don't want to change the way things have always been to suit YOU.(Not talking to the OP just there.)

 

Marianne LIttle said:

"I have seen very many small female avatars lately.  They all seem to have narrow eyes, grumpy mouth and very, very wide hips.  They reach up to my shoulders, so I wonder if short and angry is the new black? **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif" border="0" alt=":smileysurprised:" title="Smiley Surprised" /> Maybe the male height will shrink a bit too, as dance animations and other animations will be "off" between so different heights."

I seriously hope this does not become some kind of "norm" that changes things, honestly.  It looks ridiculous. especially since most of them have freakishly huge Mr Mackey heads.  I don't know if this is because they're too lazy to edit their bajillion piece single attachment piercings and hair to fit a proportionate head, or whether they don't know any better- I just hope it goes away.  

***edited to add*** since when is "a  n  a  l" a curse word?  Pfft.  Censorhip blows.

[Jo Yardley]

" That is NOT tall, in reference to everything around me as far as builds and most avatars go. "

Ah yes, but that is the whole issue.
Because of the SL avatar editor being vague and the camera placement, people have been making their avatars and sims too big for ages.
So it IS tall but so is everything else.
More and more people are realising this and changing avatars and builds, but in general people still are very tall and sims very big.
Not a problem, but for many different reasons described elsewhere I prefer the realistic scale and have build my sim around the real SL scale, rez a prim and it it 0.5 meters big, there is your SL scale.

"Also, most people build and make clothes based on SL scale, not rl."

They base it on the scale made up by people for years, based on what makes them look good and what makes camera placement work for them.
SL scale is the scale of the prim and land.

"I take mild offense to the deprecating terms being used to describe avatars that fit into SL by people being **bleep** and pretentious about numbers- you're not better than the person who fits into the SL environment just because you make things harder on yourself."

Of course we're not better but when you have created something scale 1:1 and see one after the other bump their head, or if you, knowing you are 6ft tall, stand next to someone who is very very tall and they claim you are short, it does create an odd situation.

"It seems really silly to me to be so determined to let some number... based on WHAT, if not your environment..."

Based on the SL metric scale.
I build my sim around that so yes, also based on my environment.

"The simple fact is- "realistic" height is not realistic in SL.  It can make you look like a child.  You don't have to fit into the SL scale if you don't choose, but don't whine because other people don't want to change the way things have always been to suit YOU.(Not talking to the OP just there.)"

Realistic height is realistic in SL, everything and everyone else just isn't
I spend 99% of my time in a realistic scale sim with mostly realistic scaled people, we're not asking anyone or anything to change.
Just trying to explain that we're not short.
Only one party to blame here; LL, for starting SL with a wonky appearance editor, creating very tall starter avatars, creating a weird camera position and directly contradicting their own prim scale.

 

[Rowan Villiers]

Your idea of "too big" is just an opinion.  As I stated repeatedly... SL is not RL.  There is no reason to apply rl norms to SL unless you choose to, and even now most people don't.  By saying "everyone and everything else" isn't realistic, you're making my point for me.  This is a virtual world/metaverse/pick your term.  To say that if it doesn't conform to the real world it isn't "right" is just like I said, silly.  What needs to disappear, probably, is the comparison to real world height and size that really doesn't matter, because that's where all this "but their scale is wrong" crap comes from.  When I say "SL scale" I'm referring to how my slider is IN THE MIDDLE, exactly.  That makes me average, in SL.  That makes people who are waist high on me child size, in SL.  The "shoulds" and "woulds" are all nothing but opinion.  This is how things ARE.  I don't see most of the grid rebuilding because of some numbers in an appearance editor screen that don't really mean anything, where they're being used.  They are just numbers.  This stuff isn't real.  People take shtuff way too freakin seriously.

[Jo Yardley]

But SL has a RL scale, the meter.

The scale prims have.

Of course anyone can be what they want to be and if you want to be 8ft tall and build big houses, furniture or cars, that is fine by me and it will all look fine to you.

But it is not related to the SL scale.

The avatar editor is flawed, setting your slider in the middle doesn't say much about scale.

When I first build a 2 meter tall prim and stood next to it and realised that I was much taller, I changed my avatar, simple as that.

Using the SL metric scale to build stuff is great, I can copy rl sizes from buildings, building plans, etc.

And making things realistic compared to the SL scale also gives me more space, allowes me to use smaller textures, save prims, etc.

I don't care what other people do or look like, but there is a SL scale, even if most people chose to ignore it.

The appearance editor is flawed, that is the problem.

The only SL scale there is is the one that comes with prims.

And of course all of SL isn't real, but some of us enjoy recreating realism.

I like living in a realistic sim and having a realistic avatar, I don't want to look like a model or barbie, I want to look like RL me as much as possible.
That may not be your cup of tea, but it is mine.

The same goes for building, I am very happy that the Brandenburg Gate I build is exact scale to the one in RL and because I am RL scale as well I can make snapshots of me standing by it that are realistic.

Looking at it will give me an idea of what it is like to stand by the RL one.

When I see a RL scale Zeppelin in SL I am in awe because I know that compared to me and my surroundings, this is what seeing a zeppelin would have looked like.

If I had a non SL scale avatar I would have to guess the measurements or somehow compare them to my avatar, the building would end up looking great just for my avatar, not for others.

When I stand by a car that is RL SL Scale 1:1, my avatar and it fit together, when I sit in it the animations and chairs and roof, it all goes very well together and makes sense.

But an average SL car is made to another scale, not sure what scale but not based on the RL version, or made larger.

Once you decide to go for the SL scale, replicating RL stuff becomes a lot easier.

Here I am by my RL scale based car in a RL scale based sim.

[Perrie Juran]

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Rowan Villiers wrote:

Your idea of "too big" is just an opinion.  As I stated repeatedly... SL is not RL.  There is no reason to apply rl norms to SL unless you choose to, and even now most people don't.  By saying "everyone and everything else" isn't realistic, you're making my point for me.  This is a virtual world/metaverse/pick your term.  To say that if it doesn't conform to the real world it isn't "right" is just like I said, silly.  What needs to disappear, probably, is the comparison to real world height and size that really doesn't matter, because that's where all this "but their scale is wrong" crap comes from.  When I say "SL scale" I'm referring to how my slider is IN THE MIDDLE, exactly.  That makes me average, in SL.  That makes people who are waist high on me child size, in SL.  The "shoulds" and "woulds" are all nothing but opinion.  This is how things ARE.  I don't see most of the grid rebuilding because of some numbers in an appearance editor screen that don't really mean anything, where they're being used.  They are just numbers.  This stuff isn't real.  People take shtuff way too freakin seriously.

---

The only valid point I see in building the SL World accurately according to the heights in the avatar sliders is that it could (and probably would) make better use of resources.  For instance, smaller homes could leave you more space for a bigger garden.

But no one else can see the numbers you chose on the sliders unless you go out of your way to announce it.  So if you want to size yourself so you appear shorter or taller, skinny or fat, do it relative to the World as is and just go enjoy yourself.  Cause again, people see you relative to the world.  They do not see your slider numbers unless you announce it.

 

Disclaimer:  This does not mean I am against fixing the problem of 'scale.'  I'd love to see LL fix it.  But until and if they do, adapt and adjust and go do what you came to SL to do.

 

[Perrie Juran]

The SL meter is not a scale.  It is a measuring tool. 

I agree, the original default sliders resulted in an avatar that by the measuring tool was larger than RL average numbers.  That was based upon an empirical judgement based on the physics model at that time.

I have an H.O. Railroad set.  H.O. is a scale based upon a ratio.  If I try to use an engine based on an N scale on my H.O scale tracks, it won't work.  So it is in SL.  For better or for worse, the World was built upon a ratio based on the original empirical model.  So my 6'5 Avatar really has little problem fitting in just about anywhere it goes in SL even though I am not 6'5 in RL.

Could it be better?  Yes.  But let's not confuse scale with measurement.  You have built a SIM scaled upon what you perceive to be accurate measurements.  And I applaud you for this.   But if you hold a real life Meter or Yard Stick up against your computer monitor, how many centimeters will your SL meter measure to be?  That is scale.

[Jo Yardley]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

The SL meter is not a scale.  It is a measuring tool.

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Is scale not a measuring tool as well?

I see the SL meter as a meter, because it is called a meter and not a Lindenmeter or something imaginary.

And having build a sim in semi RL SL scale meters I know that it works perfectly well as a real meter.

LL has left us in the dark here, the appearance editor is odd, the SL meter is a meter or is it not a meter, the camera is flying all over the place.

[Jo Yardley]

I am not short... now can someone help me open this door?

[Perrie Juran]

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Jo Yardley wrote:

I am not short... now can someone help me open this door?

---

That is correct.  You are trying to use an H.O. scaled Avatar on an N scaled model railroad set.

You are using a 1:1 scale avatar in what is about a 1.3:1 model set.  Of course it looks wrong.

ETA to add, scale is not the same thing as measure. And I never said you were "short."  What I said was that you are choosing to use a different scale.

Second ETA:  Now the choice is do we edit the rest of the world to fit to the 1:1 scale (which I agree would be ideal but highly unlikely to happen unless LL steps in or do we edit the Avatar to fit the ~1.3:1 scale the world is currently built with?

[Penny Patton]

It's pretty ridiculous to insist that content in SL is currently built to any consistent scale. That is ismply not the case, and easily demonstrrated with a quick glance around pretty much any given sim (1920's Berlin excluded).

The average male avatar is about 7' tall, but men 7' to almost 9' are common.  Women tend to average much smaller, with women 5' to 5'10" becoming increasingly common. Even the average SL woman is only about 6'4" and it's becoming increasingly common to see women shorter than that and increasingly uncommon to see them taller.

 Already there's a scale inconsistency between the genders!

 While most furnishings (chairs, tables, etcetera) are built to slightly larger scale than the more common avatar sizes (even the 7' tall men look like children sitting in a lot of the chairs around the grid), most environments (houses, studios, skyboxes, RP sims) are built to a much larger scale, most pushing around double size to accomodate for SL's poor default camera placement.

So we're already working with at least four different sets of scale here, and we're bound to see these inconsistencies before we've even left Help Island!

Vehicles are a mixed bag. Many cars are created way over scale, often pushing double size. Many boats, the physical vehicle variety at least, tend to be smaller than realistic scale. Airplanes tend to be built on the small side as well, with some scale inconsistencies built into them to accomodate their large scale pilots.

 

 

To put it plainly, scale in SL is broken. Completely and utterly. It doesn't matter what size you are. Chances are your avatar won't be to scale with everything inside the room you're standing in, let alone the rest of the sim.

 

 So where does that leave us? My take is that SL users to make their avatar the size that suits them. Just have fun with it and there's no need to harass anyone else for their choice in the matter.

However, if you own land or like to play with SL vehicles it's simply a good choice to scale down. Land is a static size. If your avatar is larger, it's exactly the same as making the land around you smaller. An 8' tall avatar with default camera placement pretty much needs a double scale house, which means they are paying four times as much for the same experience a 5'10" avatar with improved camera placement enjoys on a smaller parcel of land. This is basic grade school geometry.

 So the "it's a virtual world so scale doesn't matter" argument goes right out the window. 

 Also, nearly every single gigantic SL avatar out there has no idea how large they are. They did not make their avatar that size due to a concious decision, they made their avatar that size because LL starts everyone off a giant and does not provide the tools to make that obvious. So the idea that people are huge by choice is a pretty faulty argument as well.

Still, it's foolish not to consider the social side of things. The casual user doesn't want to fight the good fight against Linden Lab's design mistakes, why should they? They're here to have fun! There's nothing wrong with that! Having a 7' tall avatar because that's what LL started you with and it's to scale with all your friends and more or less to scale with the inventoy you've acquired over the years is a perfectly good and valid reason to stay just the way you are! Anyone who says differently is as much an idiot as the people insisting the smaller avatars they should scale up.

 

 I personally recommend smaller avatars. Both for the money issue and because of the creativity issue. If the average avatar were more realistically sized we'd actually wind up with a wider variety of avatars because it would be possible, for the first time in the history of SL, for the huge avatars to stand out from the crowd as huge.  In addition, building smaller affords larger, more detailed environments. I am consistently having builds I've created in SL mistaken for being much larger than they are. Hamlet at New World Notes recently mistook my build for the Milk and Cream club as a full simn build. It's only 1/4 a sim. Before that I had a similar build on a 900 prim parcel that was mistaken on multiple occaissions for a quarter sim build.

 But this doesn't mean I'm going to tell everyone they need to scale down? No! I understand the problems associated with scaling down, first hand! It's difficult! Do you know how much work it is to take a 7' tall shape and scale it down even to 6'? It's pretty time consuming. You're looking at a few hours worth of work, and that's before you get into the issue of having to scale down all your outfits and attachments to work with the new size. Then there'sthe issue of your circle of friends. Are you comfortable being half their size? No? Then maybe you're better of staying the way you are and enjoying yourself!

 

 How difficult a concept is that?

 

What I do strongly believe, however, is that Linden Lab needs to address the scale issue themselves. They need to start providing realistically scaled and proportioned human starter avatars. They need to start building better quality starter environments and leading the scale issue by example with those builds. They need to fix the appearance editor to display correct height. They need to fix SL's camera placement so it doesn't recquire excessive amounts of space around the avatar.

 If LL takes these steps then the scale issue will correct itself over time and without breaking content anymore than the introduction of sculpties, flexiprims, windlight or mesh broke content.

[Perrie Juran]

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Penny Patton wrote:

My take is that SL users to make their avatar the size that suits them. Just have fun with it and there's no need to harass anyone else for their choice in the matter.

---

I absolutely agree with this statement.  Have never said different.  It's just that people sometimes get fixated on that number in the slider.  You see it in what they write in their profiles and in statements they make.  But no one else sees the number a person has chosen so then they look out of place in the mis-scaled world like you do in the picture you posted.  So why not adjust as appropriately as one can when one goes out in the wide world of Second Life.  That is all I really am saying.  Instead of being fixated on that number, go enjoy yourself.

I do admire the work you have done.  I do think its great, especially a lot of the information on Avatar proportions, camera angles, etc.  I really appreciate having it and use it.

All I am trying to do is point out that there can be a happy medium here as an interim solution to the problem until we are able to persuade LL to fix the problem.  That it is possible to look shorter or taller, fat, skinny, etc and still look 'presentable' (for lack of a better word) in this out of scale world we have as long as a person is not fixated on "I have to be that number." 

 

[Penny Patton]

Sorry, I should have specified. I was replying to both yours and Rowan's comments.

[Jo Yardley]

I've been trying a new hud/radar/etc that gives you information on avatars, including their height and I think it is pretty spot on when it comes to finding an avatars real measurements.

With hair and heels I am about 1.86, my avatar without those should be aroun 1.80, so yes, pretty good.

When you are very very tall, it tells you that you are rather tall

But it also tells you who is using how many scripts, information on the sim, etc

There is also a measurements scale people can try themselves.

From the notecard;

This handy, little device is a MUST HAVE for every brave sim explorer, land or region owner, containing many powerful features.
Includes the most vital tools for your everyday second life, such as an avatar radar, lag meter, performance monitor, sim or
parcel diagnostics, detailed avatar informations (precise height detection, script memory and CPU time usage, age detector, etc),
flight assist and many more. It also alerts the owner in case of low sim performance or extreme crowd - every function is
configurable via an easy to use menu system!

I rather like it and it has been fun to tell other people their height during avatar related issues and as a sim owner it is also rather handy to find out if someone perhaps is using a little too many scripts.

 

Anyway, nice to see such a gadget actually using the scale as we've been discussing it here for ages.

There is a travel hud but also a measurement scale at this place so you can check your own avatar;

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Verdigris/80/66/70

This handy, little device is a MUST HAVE for every brave sim explorer, land or region owner, containing many powerful features.
Includes the most vital tools for your everyday second life, such as an avatar radar, lag meter, performance monitor, sim or
parcel diagnostics, detailed avatar informations (precise height detection, script memory and CPU time usage, age detector, etc),
flight assist and many more. It also alerts the owner in case of low sim performance or extreme crowd - every function is
configurable via an easy to use menu system!