Dartagan Shepherd Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Dakota has probably been working on releasing a new line of high quality freebies under her alt and snickering over her waffles when she should be working. Wouldn't be surprised if Brooke is in on it. Did you catch her in that vid from SLCC? Shifty eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Susanto Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Or they could be busy trying to figure out what to do about the perfect SLM griefing tool, which I showed to Dakota that LL had provided to me (and everyone else), apparently by accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Good catch if that turns out to be a real issue. Must deny having any knowledge of accidently receiving an SLM griefing tool. You assume all responsibilities whether implicit or implied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 You're fairly new here. Lemme explain. Tuesday is Fish Taco and Mojito day in San Fran. Has been for years. Well known fact. Trace back on all the Tuesday afternoons, and you'll get my drift. Look at what time Ralph appears back into the thread. yep...about midway through 3rd Mojito. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WADE1 Jya Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Is it time for a lolcat yet? I think this thread desperately needs one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blot Brickworks Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I decided to give out T shirts for this thread............................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Hopkins Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Someone may have already pointed this out, but... Its sort of in merchant's interests to have fewer participants in selling "low quality" content, for obvious (if relatively insignificant) reasons. But I don't really think of people in Second Life as being primarily potential consumers of the stuff other people make. Second Life is special because people can be creative for creativity's sake, regardless of the result. If given the choice between selling something to someone and their never learning to create on their own, or them passing on buying my thing and getting into building themselves, I think the latter is far better. Second Life "looking good" seems like a secondary concern to the openness and freedom of it. So if freebie clutter is a consequence of that freedom and openness, I don't really think the perceived inconvenience to merchants trumps it. And there are other factors behind why Second Life didn't take off like tech guru's predicted. Your stuff being buried under listings of things you perceive to be inferior just wouldn't make a top 10 list of those reasons. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 @Nathan: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralph Alderton Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Hello Nathan, I absolutely agree with you that the most wonderful thing about Secondlife is the openness and freedom. I would never want that to change. VIVA SECONDLIFE ! Secondlife IS special in this regard and of course it's amazing that everyone can build and create if they want to learn to do so. But how Secondlife LOOKS is not a secondary concern. It's a primary concern. If Secondlife doesn't look good it won't attract people and they won't stay. The mass market are NOT creators they're end users, consumers, socialisers - Rodvik stated as much in his recent keynote speech at SLCC - and those social creatures want somewhere exciting and attractive to be social. The failure to convert 16k signups to active users and then eventually paid users could easily be attributed to way Secondlife looks and that is because of the dominance of junk in the marketplace and consequently inworld The Lab is searching and wondering why they are not converting these 16k signups to active users. The answer is simple a SUPERABUNDANCE OF JUNK CAUSES CHURNOVER LL churnover 16k users per day. Concurrency is flat even with 16k signups a day ! That's incredible churnover of users. Clearly the Lab don't think junk is a problem and don't think the way Secondlife looks is a problem. And that IS the problem. LL don't perceive, they don't GET why people are not staying and why the churnover is so incredibly high. Imagine saying to a 3D game company - hey it doesn't matter what the game looks like. Top 3D game companies entice new users with exciting screenshots of their games prior to release. They spend millions getting the art style and graphics right. To suggest that how a virtual world looks has no baring and is a secondary concern is simply wrong. Forgetting any perceived inconvenience to Merchants, how new users perceive Secondlife is of absolute concern, now and for the future. The super-duper high churnover is indicative or something. If there's a shadow, there's something casting that shadow - and junk is casting a dark shadow over Secondlife. Perhaps the problem is that very few Lindens actually use Secondlife so they don't know or care what it looks like. They don't think it matters, but it does ! How things LOOK is of primary importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 ralph Alderton wrote: How things LOOK (to me) is of primary importance (to me). ... And only you may decide what you like. However your likes are not mine nor anyone elses. We get that you don't like how it looks. Build a bridge and get over it already Ralph. It's not your say-so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 ralph Alderton wrote: Imagine saying to a 3D game company - hey it doesn't matter what the game looks like. To suggest that how a virtual world looks has no baring and is a secondary concern is simply wrong. How things LOOK is of primary importance. I'm not a Facebook user, it has no interest to me and I think it looks awful. It's just..a..website. With a market capitalisation of 66 billion dollars. It's also free. What is it that Facebook does for social intercourse that SL doesn't do, it cannot be about looks or what people wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralph Alderton Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 16k people a day , 112000 people a week, 480000 per month agree with me - they walk away from Secondlife because it doesn't look good enough to make them want to stay How things look is of primary importance, it's foolish to think otherwise. I'm not the only one who thinks this way, the nearly half a million people per month who walk away from Secondlife feel the same way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralph Alderton Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Sassy, Nobody expects visuals from Facebook, it's a 2D web site. Secondlife is a 3D virtual world, it's all visuals, new users will compare it to 3D games Rodvik stated that Secondlife is starting to attract a younger crowd, these younger users will compare Secondlife to the latest games and it won't compare well How things look is of primary importance to all human beings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasher Oh Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 "How things look is of primary importance, it's foolish to think otherwise. I'm not the only one who thinks this way, the nearly half a million people who walk away from Secondlife feel the same way" Realy Ralphy - you've asked them all - ROFL. What a silly thing to state. When you come down out of your cloud why not go have a look at how successful AVN has become with it's restricted freebie policies and marketplace embargos designed to cater for merchants more than customers. From what I can see they are getting pretty desperate for supporters of their strict elitist stance. In fact they are getting pretty desperate for anyone. As for why folks log in and don't stay to spend with you or anyone else I have a feeling that it has a lot more than just how where they happened to land looks. Viewer complexity, harrasment, and lag just to name a few. ^L^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralph Alderton Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 The Lab is searching and wondering why they are not converting these 16k signups to active users. The answer is simple a SUPERABUNDANCE OF JUNK CAUSES super-duper CHURNOVER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralph Alderton Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Hey Lasher, There are dozens of computer games with millions of users which are far more complex than SL. If it's beautiful and compelling enough people make the effort needed to acclimatize to the new But and here's the biggy and I'm going to say it again because it has to be said : Secondlife is drowning in junk and poor quality content and the SUPERABUNDANCE of said JUNK in the marketplace is to blame. Linden Lab should stop pretending that the massive AWESOME amount of junk is having no effect. They are pushing everyone to the marketplace which is full of junk. So people see junk, they buy junk, they download junk, they use junk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ralph, see my other message about the way that younger people expect to socialise and their attention span. From the younger people that i've met, they're usually more interested in which free items they can get, how they can NOT spend money, where to party and chat. The pursuance of excellence in their look is not the most important thing, that usually comes later. I believe you're very wrong in your assessment. SL doesn't and won't look as "cool" as computer games because it's not optimised or created by 3D game artists so it's inappropriate to compare apples with oranges. I don't know about anyone else but I didn't stick around because of great content, that interest in what I wear came some time after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralph Alderton Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Sassy, I understand and appreciate what you are saying but if the world doesn't LOOK GOOD and excite them first, they won't be here later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaiya Arnold Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Obviously I do not get out much because I have to say I've never encountered a game or social environment as complex as SL at the entry end of things. The basic viewer constitutes a significant aggravation of this factor. I do not know anyone who has quit because freebies are ugly, but I know people have quit when I tried to explain merely how to get out of basic mode and into the "advanced" mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoki Enoch Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ishtara Rothschild wrote: Yoki Enoch wrote: Freebies improve rention rates. If people come in here for the first time and see that they have to pay for everything right off the bat, they will get turned off. Your thesis is severly flawed. I bought lots of clothes, a skin, hair, a plot of land, a prefab, furniture, and plants on day one. That used to be the thing to do back when LL demanded a credit card number during account signup. People who are willing to spend a little money on their digital entertainment won't be discouraged by commercial content, and aren't those exactly the people that we want to retain? Differently put: Both Armani and the Red Cross distribute clothing. Who do you think makes more revenue? I bought clothing and other items early on too. Regardless, when one arrives in SL housed in pure and utter ugliness, it is nice to find some quick and free fixes. People who natter on about how freebies are killing SL have not a clue what they are talking about. Kill the freebies, and you give another death blow to SL. It is bad enough as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Since I am active in SL I have see a lot of people leave. Not one single time I have heared the argument that someone leaves because SL doesn't look good. The reasons I have heard most is: relations and changes in RL. I'm talking now about the average user, not the people who are active in the commercial field of SL (those have other reasons to leave). Another thing I see happen is that there are limited periods that SL is attractive for people. I didn't study it enough to be able to say how these periods exactly are, but one thing I have observed is that for a lot of residents after about two years something as SL tiredness appears. The adventure is out of SL, it has become routine, they have visited all great sims, seen a lot of bands, have a house and have moved a few times, have roleplayed for a while, have played with there breedables, have made a lot of friends and also lost a lot of friends again. And then slowly but steadily SL begins to feel as dull. It starts with login in less often and it ends with selling their land because they are hardly active in SL anymore. I'm glad with this 16k joining every day. It cannot be that all of them leave immediately. There are stayers among them, who fill the gap the leavers leave. And that is what keeps the economy still healthy. There must be several reasons for people not to stay in SL after a first login. My guess is that the people who don't stay because SL doesn't look good is less then 1%. It would be very interesting for LL to get a finger behind these reasons. They could think of things like: when someone made an account, and didn't come back within a week, to send them a survey and ask them what the reason is that they did not come back after the first signup. The response on such a survey might not be too high, but everything you can learn from this is knowledge that is not available till now. I know just a small group of people who have tried SL, but didn't stay. From non of them I have heard they didn't stay because it didn't look good. Or actually I have heard from one, but that is another kind of not looking good, then you refer too. That was someone who saw is avatar just as a grey puppet among lot of other grey puppets. His computer was just not strong enough for SL. When LL is going to advertise SL, ofcourse they must make it look very good. And that is very well possible, because a lot residenst made content that looks very good. I don't think LL denies the idea that quality of design is attractive to people. For example destination guide and those lookbooks they had for a while (are they still there?) are attempts to highlight the quality in SL. But when I listened to Rods keynote, I find it most remarkle that he started his speech with the celebration of creativity. (Creating is the best thing there is, besides what you do in the bedroom). He more or less defines SL as a platform to share creativity. I like that vision very much, because I think of SL in the same way. Creativity is not only making things to sell on the marketplace. Creativity is for all people in SL, whether your are creative with decorating your house, creative in the parties you organise, creative in shooting pictures from yourself in your new dress, creative on your blog, creative as a roleplayer or creative in your friendships. Each avatar is the main character in the story of a second life.Your story is one of a creator who cannot bear the low quality some people produce. But creativity not only comes in very many forms, it also comes with people who have very different skills. There are roleplayers that are so good that they could be RL actors. And there are roleplayers who will never get the real spirit of the 'magic if'. There are clothingdesigners who have 20 years experience with Photoshop, and there are clothing designers who learned how to work with Gimp after they joined Second Life. Of course both will produce a different quality. Nevertheless both can be very passionate about fashion and have very strong design ideas. Being active in a world with user generated content means that users of every skill level can create content. What you call junk is often a creation of someone who is not very skilled yet. What I actually hear you pleating for is that they should not be allowed to create in SL. Because you think that it makes SL look bad and people don't stay for that reason. But I think it's the strongest point of SL that éverybody can be creative in SL in the way that fits him. A beginner can be as passionate about his creation as you are about yours. You must not destroy that passion by putting quality barriers. You must give people room to grow in their skills. In the end the buyers decide who's merchandise they will buy. People who stay long in SL become sensitive to quality. The stayers are the ones who spend money. So when you are a merchant with high quality items, you must not fear from the people who are less skilled then you... they don't target the same buying audience as you do. But they do have an important function in the economy, because... the possibility to be creative in SL is what makes them stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoki Enoch Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 ralph Alderton wrote: Mickey, what I want is for Secondlife to succeed and prosper and I don't see that happening when the world is overwhelmed with junk, free or otherwise There have been several possible good solutions in the thread such as separate areas for junk and freebies, listing fees, mechanisms to remove stale content, premium account only to sell at the marketplace etc Junk and freebies, which are effectively product spam, is a real issue that is damaging the Secondlife brand and preventing growth Sure, give the freebie makers their own continent, like LL did for the "sleaze" makers. Boy, that sure gave SL the good old boost, eh? Not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralph Alderton Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Clearly the Lab don't think junk is a problem and don't think the way Secondlife looks is a problem. And that IS the problem. LL don't perceive, they don't GET why people are not staying and why the churnover is so incredibly high. Imagine saying to a 3D game company - hey it doesn't matter what the game looks like. Top 3D game companies entice new users with exciting screenshots of their games prior to release. They spend millions getting the art style and graphics right. The SUPERABUNDANCE of junk IS a problem and IS damaging the growth and popularity of Secondlife Not a popular opinion, not even considered a problem, but it's true none the less. The SUPERABUNDANCE of junk is hurting Secondlife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralph Alderton Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Perhaps the problem is that very few Lindens actually use Secondlife so they don't know or care what it looks like. They don't think it matters, but it does ! How things LOOK is of primary importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I would purchase that kitty... and the keyword market on that is wide open eta: only one tin foil hat on the marketplace. there's the problem right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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