Creators, how do you want your meshes being served?

[Vincent Nacon]

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

Thanks for your feed back. I see comments from people with a critical eye more as a present then as an attack.

When it comes to efficiency of using texture space, you are right.

But on the other hand skin- and fashion artists work with non effecient used texture space for years already. So it is a kind of format the community is used to.

But with the sticks you have a point. It would even make it more easy to apply a wood texture to them when all sticks are lined up next to each other.

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

Yes, you are right. This is not a final model I will put for sale, because the model is still too prim heavy. The final model uses less polygons and has a prim count of 3.

But this is what I just had for hand to show people who don't know anything about mesh or texturing mesh how a UV map might look.

 

 

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Helping is nice but being taught by someone who isn't quite professional yet isn't the best idea. As for the format, yes it does happen a lot but I wouldn't call it a "standard" to be fair. Which is why it happens in the first place.

[Madeliefste Oh]

The templates from Chip Midnight and Robin Wood are in SL the standards on which skins and clothes are designed. I'm not aware of any other 'standards', but I would like to hear from you which standards you mean.

[ralph Alderton]

Why should the back of the fan occupy the same size area on the UV ?

Because every pixel counts when you are making objects for realtime streaming worlds. The back and front need to be the same size otherwise the back will be a different resolution to the front. The back will have less pixels and won't look as good as the front.

 Also it makes matching up the front and back seems more difficult for your customers if the back and the front don't share the same amount of pixels on the UV map, for symetrical objects

You should also only be supplying a maximum 512x512 UV map for an object of this size, so every pixel really does count. You don't want the back to look fuzzier than the front

While we're at it, your sticks have not been unwrapped they are just planar mapped, straight through right now. The texture would drag down the sides. you need to  unwrap the sticks, so each side of the stick is available for texture mapping

Hope this info helps

[Toysoldier Thor]

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ralph Alderton wrote:

Also, I didn't like to say but if we're now helping  Madeliefste with feedback :

The back and front UV's for the fan should be the same size - right now the back is smaller

As Vincent suggests the sticks should be stacked and there are ALSO way too many  vertical verts and edges in the sticks. As there are 10 sticks that's a whole bunch of unecessary polygons

Also the knob looks seriously dense with  verts and edges as it appears white in the UV - more optimisation needed

Since there are no prim limits for AV accessories I foresee a lot of enthusiastic mesh beginners piling on the polygons and not optimising their models. This is particularly bad with full perm creators as they will be effectively selling and distributing laggy content 

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Actually this comment of Ralph's about the likely onslought of mesh models - many of them potentially very ineffecient and therefore also potentially very PE costly and laggy - made me think of something regarding the sale and listing of mesh models on SLM or inworld....

Can there be / will there be some new field in the SLM listings, OR, would there be a value that any responsible mesh creator would point out in a mesh listing that can tell the potential customer how efficient the mesh model is?  Again, I am no mesh terminology expert but maybe you experts can think of something that a Mesh Seller can mention in their listing that would give the buyer a good indication of its effeciency on the grid.

Almost like when you buy a car - the car maker would tell you the car's fuel economy (city / highway).  Or when you buy a furnance or appliance - its EPA power consumption efficiency rating with others of its kind.

Is this the PE value?  Lets look at Made's oriental fan.  A few of you are saying although its a beautiful fan - its structurally an ineffecient build for what its purpose is that its accomplishing.  So... if Made told you its PE was 150 (just a number I pulled out of my hat), is that all you would need to know to be able to tell its efficiency?  Or is there more that Made would have to tell you in the SLM Listing when you are buying that would give you a much more accurate impression on its efficiency?

THIS is a question that goes directly to the OP's question....

 

[Mylar]

There are a couple of tools in the UV edit window that can help you out. I'm using Blender 2.58, but if you're using 2.49 I'm sure there's something similar. In the UV menu there's Pack Islands, which tries to fit the UV map into the most available space, and there's Average Island Scale, which makes all the sections of your UV map scaled to evenly match how they fit on the mesh.

Another useful tool (again, I'm only sure of how it works in 2.58) is the "Stretch" tool. in the properties panel there should be a check box labeled "Stretch". This will highlight the UV map in (hopefully) blue. Any areas that are not blue indicate areas that the texture is being stretched over the mesh in an odd way.

Just a couple of tips I thought I'd throw out there, hope it helps:matte-motes-big-grin:

[Mylar]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

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ralph Alderton wrote:

Also, I didn't like to say but if we're now helping  Madeliefste with feedback :

The back and front UV's for the fan should be the same size - right now the back is smaller

As Vincent suggests the sticks should be stacked and there are ALSO way too many  vertical verts and edges in the sticks. As there are 10 sticks that's a whole bunch of unecessary polygons

Also the knob looks seriously dense with  verts and edges as it appears white in the UV - more optimisation needed

Since there are no prim limits for AV accessories I foresee a lot of enthusiastic mesh beginners piling on the polygons and not optimising their models. This is particularly bad with full perm creators as they will be effectively selling and distributing laggy content 

---

Actually this comment of Ralph's about the likely onslought of mesh models - many of them potentially very ineffecient and therefore also potentially very PE costly and laggy - made me think of something regarding the sale and listing of mesh models on SLM or inworld....

Can there be / will there be some new field in the SLM listings, OR, would there be a value that any responsible mesh creator would point out in a mesh listing that can tell the potential customer how efficient the mesh model is?  Again, I am no mesh terminology expert but maybe you experts can think of something that a Mesh Seller can mention in their listing that would give the buyer a good indication of its effeciency on the grid.

Almost like when yo ubuy a car - the care maker would tell you the car's fuel economy (city / highway).  Or when you buy a furnance or appliance - its EPA power consumption efficiency rating with others of its kind.

Is this the PE value?  Lets look at Made's oriental fan.  A few of you are saying although its a beautiful fan - its structurally an ineffecient build for what its purpose is that its accomplishing.  So... if Made told you its PE was 150 (just a number I pulled out of my hat), is that all you would need to know to be able to tell its efficiency?  Or is there more that Made would have to tell you in the SLM Listing when you are buying that would give you a much more accurate impression on its efficiency?

THIS is a question that goes directly to the OP's question....

 

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I believe the terms your looking for are face count, or poly count. In blender you can get this information in the upper right of the screen when you select a mesh in object mode 

[Vincent Nacon]

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

The templates from Chip Midnight and Robin Wood are in SL the standards on which skins and clothes are designed. I'm not aware of any other 'standards', but I would like to hear from you which standards you mean.

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I think we might be confused between few things about "standards".

As you should know, Chip and Robin didn't create UV mapping for SL's avatar, as it can't be changed.  Linden Lab created the UV map, however... wouldn't call it as standard for that matter either. They made it simple and dumbed down for anyone to create texture for clothes. They left behind a too much voids that could have been used; like independent arms and foot.

[Madeliefste Oh]

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ralph Alderton wrote:

Why should the back of the fan occupy the same size area on the UV ?

Because every pixel counts when you are making objects for realtime streaming worlds. The back and front need to be the same size otherwise the back will be a different resolution to the front. The back will have less pixels and won't look as good as the front.

 Also it makes matching up the front and back seems more difficult for your customers if the back and the front don't share the same amount of pixels on the UV map, for symetrical objects

You should also only be supplying a maximum 512x512 UV map for an object of this size, so every pixel really does count. You don't want the back to look fuzzier than the front

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I don't agree with you. In this design the front site is much more important then the back site. A fan is worn with the front site to be seen by the world, the backsite might be shown now and then when the avatar moves with the fan, but much less then the front.So because every pixels counts, I like the best quality to be on the front site, and not loose valuabe pixels for use at the back that will get a lot less attention.

And also when the fan is not used as an avatar attachment but as a decoration it is most likely that the fan will hang against a wall,showing the front, not the back.

Making the front and backsides match is not needed in this design. At the sides the paper is covered by the sticks, so a matching seams is not needed there. Since the object is rather flat, you cannot look at the front and the back site at the same time anyway, so nobody is able to see if the seams match at the top and the bottum.

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While we're at it, your sticks have not been unwrapped they are just planar mapped, straight through right now. The texture would drag down the sides. you need to  unwrap the sticks, so each side of the stick is available for texture mapping

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The sticks are very thin at the sides, and the object won't be rezzed at a very large size, so this planar mapping is not a real problem either in my opinion. You only will see the sides when you cam really close with the camera. Who will be interested to zoom in at the sides of sticks, when the fan paper is the eye catcher in the design?

 

 

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Vincent Nacon wrote:

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

The templates from Chip Midnight and Robin Wood are in SL the standards on which skins and clothes are designed. I'm not aware of any other 'standards', but I would like to hear from you which standards you mean.

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I think we might be confused between few things about "standards".

As you should know, Chip and Robin didn't create UV mapping for SL's avatar, as it can't be changed.  Linden Lab created the UV map, however... wouldn't call it as standard for that matter either. They made it simple and dumbed down for anyone to create texture for clothes. They left behind a too much voids that could have been used; like independent arms and foot.

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But despite your problems with the UV mapping of the SL avatar, the largest branche of the virtual goods market in SL is based on these maps. It might not be a standard in 3D design, but it is a standard in SL.

Following this 'bad example' that LL has set, I want to make it simple to create textures for my meshes.

[Chelsea Malibu]

If I'm buying a mesh, I'll just go to Turbo Squid and buy the OBJ or Max file and edit it if needed in 3DS Max.  For that reason, I wouldn't want it imported but would rather have a downloaded file.

[Chelsea Malibu]

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

Good grief, Ralph!

Who are you tell someone who has a fantastically marketed niche and offers a valuable service that they are not contributing to the economy or the community?  Get a grip, dude. 

Madeliefste is my idol on proper marketing!

I purchase sculpties all the time to use in products.  Will assume others do.

It's like going to the unfinished wood store in physical world and purchasing an unfinished wood cabinet, then getting out your paints or stains and creating your own piece.

Or like a seamstress purchasing a bolt of fabric, then creating a dress. 

No reason someone has to learn woodworking or fabric weaving in order to make something.

 

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Ditto!!  It's a creative community.  If you have issues with this NOT being your commerce nirvana or have issues with the way others run their extremely productive business, then you may want to go check out IMVU or Red Light Center.  There you can be an elitist without a cause.

[ralph Alderton]

Chelsea, Please take a look at the Turbo Squid User License.

You are not allowed to buy models from Turbo Squid load them up into 3DS max, create a derivative product and sell them in SL.

Turbo Squid actually specifically forbids the resale of TurboSquid models in Secondlife.

Basically, selling models you've bought from TurboSquid, even if you change them and create something you think is new , is illegal.

Derivative models breach copyright in the same way as if you were to sell a mesh model that didn't belong to you, as is

 

[Vincent Nacon]

Ralph, she didn't say about reselling them... However.

Chelsea, but then you'd have to deal with UV mapping down to 8 material per object or less, optimized for less prim count and provide a proper physic boundary.  While SL's viewer does provide their optimization tools, it's not the best versus Blender's or any of AutoDesk's softwares. Much as it need some handling than letting it alone be shipped in.

[Chelsea Malibu]

I also build within the Unity 3D platform usually and far more than SL builds.  I build games and corporate worlds for real money, SL is a hobby.  Also, 90% of what I create is for my sim builds which I do not sell as products.

[Ishtara Rothschild]

I've created my own Poser textures before I joined SL, so I'm used to working with texture templates. Of course it's always nice to be able to change the mesh itself if necessary, but 2D templates would be sufficient for me in most cases.

[Ciaran Laval]

Indeed Ralph, Turbosquid names Second Life as an example of what can't be done when you purchase an item there, however this is the Turbosquid who sell items with a standard royalty free license hey

[Sassy Romano]

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ralph Alderton wrote:

The only things that should be full perm are scripts and textures

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Why are scripts to be considered less in IP value than your mesh?  A no mod script with a published link message interface is easy to use.  No reason for that to be full perm at all!