Maturity policy boiled down to just one document left in the official parts of the knowledge base.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

You'll probably remember, back on the RA forum, when Jig's private residence on a Mature sim, which doubled as an art gallery (but which was not advertised) was ARed for "nudity."  I've heard of other instances of the same.

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As I recall, Jig ran into problems precisely because her private residence was also an art gallery (and thus open to the public and not really private) and because the images were photographs of RL models.  She thought she was OK because they were images of works by bona fide artists, which had been displayed in RL galleries, but someone at LL didn't agree.

This, by the way, is one reason I'm unhappy about any attempt to extend the rating system -- experience shows us that we can't rely on individual Lindens exercising what you and I would regard as common sense in reaching decisions in such matters, any more than we can rely on the automatic word filters in the Marketplace so doing.

[Deltango Vale]

"Someone once said that the two great themes of all literature were sex and death."

- Jim Morrison

"but it is simply silly to argue that sex and violence are not the two biggest red flags in SL, or indeed in just about any RL culture you want to name."

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They are red flags and flashpoints precisely because no one agrees on how to define them. Sex and violence are like religion and politics: forever subjective, forever relative, forever debatable - especially in a virtual world.

Yes, all societies do share a concern for 'sex' and 'violence'. Here is the framework that currently measures such concerns:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_picture_rating_system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_majority

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America)

Tell me if you see universal, objective agreement on 'sex' and 'violence' anywhere in those stats. Sure, one finds a universal interest in those stats and definitions, but no universality within the stats and definitions themselves.

I belabor this point because it is impossible to discuss the partitioning of Second Life into maturity levels and zones without accepting the arbitrary nature of such an exercise.

[Ceka Cianci]

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

 

it is very confusing if we look at it from a private residents point of view..because all three definitions are telling those that wish to open a business or have a business or something that is for public use..look here to see where you fit in..

and if you are not sure..you better check to make sure you are not operating like one of these or you will get a rating of one of these or moved  if we find out you are and are doing it in the wrong place heheheh ..

 

in other words private residents and their private homes don't fall under the ratings defenitions.

nothing has changed from what it was before for private residents..

we could never be nude or have sex on General lands..it's always been disney..

You'll probably remember, back on the RA forum, when Jig's private residence on a Mature sim, which doubled as an art gallery (but which was not advertised) was ARed for "nudity."  I've heard of other instances of the same.

What is most worrisome, I think, about the way in which they've retired the wiki entry, and mothballed the discussions with Blondin, is that it was

there

that the important information about how the ratings changes would affect

private

citizens were worked out, and made public.  If one were ARed for having sex in one's own residence in a mature sim, or indeed even in engaging in BDSM, one could point (however futilely, perhaps) to Blondin's public assurance that, as you say, the ratings system was primarily about the marketplace and advertising, and that they did not, in M regions anyway, apply to private content and behaviours that were kept behind closed doors.

So, I think that the changes that Pussycat has noted are worrisome. I don't know that they represent a "real" change in LL policy towards private behaviours and content, but I do think that they return us, at least potentially, to the uncertainty that we were facing in the run-up to the introduction of Zindra and AO.

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i'm just gonna use commercial for merchants and places that had to be moved to zindra or rate up to adult rating and residential for private residents to kind of simplify it.. so i don't have to keep typing out so many things on the commercail side..

anyways..the three main things that separate commercial from residential are this..

 if it hosts, advertises, or publicly promotes..then it is commercial..

if it doesn't.. then it is residential..

if jig was doing any of those three then she would have fallen into commercial..because her home was now a business or open to the public..

i don't remember all that well what went on back then..it's been so long..

i'm just saying that if she was hosting the content..then that could have been why she was ARed..that is open to the public  and not considered behind closed doors..

it's not all just about the search..people walking passed seeing a sign  for her gallery..

i remember the thread itself as far as it happening..but i just don't remember any details that went on in it..

 

as far as blondin and what he said..i really myself don't even look at any of his things he has said  in the past..i mean i do but it's not what i really fall back on for anything..

i may have back then because in RA when the definitions first came out i was pretty confused with them like everyone was back then..

then after reading and them over and over and bouncing back and forth from audio files and looking at other lindens talking about them..just a bunch of things really..one day it just clicked and all made sense..

 

i remember this one line from the old FAQ's  and LL saying nothing would change for residents..meaning residential..where a lot took it as them meaning everyone..

i can't remember it word for word becauase it was a couple years ago hehehe..

if you ask me if they would have just called them the commercial maturity ratings then so many people would not be wondering so much what they are reading..

then if they needed something for general and mature residential..they could have did that as well..

or even better..each rating given it's own page with commercial and then below each one  a residential as well..

just saying maturity ratings has everyone thinking they are speaking about everyone..

thats lawyer talk if you ask me..my father used to tell me..you can try to reach some of the people talking all fancy if you want but you are more likely to reach them all if you speak to everyone on  the same level..

i admit they are very confusing..thats why i am in every thread i see that comes up..

i keep hoping i can maybe find a better way of trying to explain them in each one..

i don't think LL is trying to be confusing to anyone..i think they just don't really know how to talk to us or they feel they have to word it like the laws word it or adding something  easier to understand may void what they were trying to put up there..i don't know..

but when i read them after it all clicked..it all was very clear after that..not confusing anymore..

 

wow am i rambling or what hehehe..sorry i just got home from work and am running on only two hours of sleep before work yesterday..so if i strayed all over or have letters scrambled a little..it's just from being tired hehehe

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

 

Or, another possibility? Keep the public pronouncements vague, but make the internal company guidelines more detailed and rigid?  Nothing like a tightly-controlled hidden agenda, and a highly flexible set of rules for public conduct, to keep 'em guessing.

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/me passes some Scylla some extra tinfoil for the new hat.

Personally I'm of the belief that the root of most conspiracies is incompetence rather than anything actually going on.

 

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Yeah, I'm not really suggesting that LL are that clever. I think incompetence does explain a great deal more. But I'm also pretty certain that LL likes "vague," or at least has in the past.  They really don't like to be nailed down on definitions.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

You'll probably remember, back on the RA forum, when Jig's private residence on a Mature sim, which doubled as an art gallery (but which was not advertised) was ARed for "nudity."  I've heard of other instances of the same.

---

As I recall, Jig ran into problems precisely because her private residence was also an art gallery (and thus open to the public and not really private) and because the images were photographs of RL models.  She thought she was OK because they were images of works by bona fide artists, which had been displayed in RL galleries, but someone at LL didn't agree.

This, by the way, is one reason I'm unhappy about any attempt to extend the rating system -- experience shows us that we can't rely on individual Lindens exercising what you and I would regard as common sense in reaching decisions in such matters, any more than we can rely on the automatic word filters in the Marketplace so doing.

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Well, two points with relation to Jig.  There were at least some assurances that "artistic merit" or something like that would be taken into account when applying the mature classification.  And I'm pretty certain that Jig didn't "advertise" her gallery -- it was "open," but in no real sense a "public" gallery. And that, as Ceka's comments below imply, should have safeguarded it from an AR, just as a set of sex pose balls in a private residence should be safe.

You'll get no argument from me that LL's classification system is poorly defined, and even more poorly policed. But that could be an argument for improving the system, rather than scrapping it.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Who knew Jim Morrison was so clever?

 

Of course there aren't hard and fast definitions for sexuality and violence; there never will be.  There aren't universally agreed-upon standards and definitions for just about anything, including the definition of life itself.  All rules, laws, and social standards, in RL and SL, are always going to be somewhat arbitrary: at best, they can reflect the "dominant" view of any given culture and attempt to apply a generalized and reasonably tolerant solution that will leave as many people comfortable as is possible.  This is true of nearly everything to do with governance in RL and SL; it's always about accommodation and compromise.

Take the instance of the law. Even a simple crime like robbery may not be black-and-white: that's why we have juries deliberating over and weighing the evidence. Your suggestion seems to be that, because we can't resolve shades of grey to black and white, we should simply leave everything unregulated. How might you apply this same principle to other forms of governance? What constitutes griefing or harassment in SL?  Well, there is no absolutely definitive way of determining that: at some point, someone has to make a judgement about each individual case.  Does that mean we should simply allow griefing and harassment?

The fact that there is little agreement in detail on such things as sex and violence isn't a reason to ignore the views of everyone who does have a view on them: it's a more pressing reason to accommodate those different perspectives as best we can. There are lots of ways to do that, of which a ratings system is but one -- but it's an important one, because it is backed by the threat of sanctions.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Well, as I said somewhere above in relation to Jig's case, I'm pretty sure that she was not "advertising" her gallery: it really was just a large part of her personal residence -- in a skybox at that point, I think -- that happened to be given over to displaying art.  So I'd say that it would not fall into the "commercial" category.

I think LL will always try to deal with merchants, in preference to more general consultations with the SL "public," because merchants are considered important stakeholders who contribute to SL's well-being, and because they represent a smaller and more easily define segment of the SL population. It's also an approach that is entirely in accord with LL's largely laissez-faire approach to the SL economy.

[Gavin Hird]

I am sure you will find a good deal of people who says it shall be unregulated on the one hand and you have the other camp that expects LL to be lawmaker and judge for everything.

What would be far more ideal would be resident driven regulation:

It could be organized along the lines of residents drawing up a set of community standards and regulations subject to democratic processes. Sims could join a block of standards that then were enforced inside the block. (I don't think it is practical at the parcel level.)

The advantage is that you would get a more diversified grid, and people could settle and set up shop inside a regulatory area they felt comfortable with. 

Linden Lab could get out of the business of micro-managing the grid and only have to satisfy the minimum legal requirements set by the state of CA.

User regultated communities also tend to get much less scrutiny and intervention from politicians and legislators. 

I would be easier to accomodate multiple cultural norms like you always will have in a global audience. 

[Innula Zenovka]

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

Well, as I said somewhere above in relation to Jig's case, I'm pretty sure that she was not "advertising" her gallery: it really was just a large part of her personal residence -- in a skybox at that point, I think -- that happened to be given over to displaying art.  So I'd say that it would not fall into the "commercial" category.

I think LL will always try to deal with merchants, in preference to more general consultations with the SL "public," because merchants are considered important stakeholders who contribute to SL's well-being, and because they represent a smaller and more easily define segment of the SL population. It's also an approach that is entirely in accord with LL's largely

laissez-faire

approach to the SL economy.

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Actually, having done a bit of research, I think that Jig's problem was that her gallery was on PG land and LL warned her the stuff should be on an M rated sim -- see http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/327/d2/336680/1.html

[Innula Zenovka]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

I am sure you will find a good deal of people who says it shall be unregulated on the one hand and you have the other camp that expects LL to be lawmaker and judge for everything.

What would be far more ideal would be resident driven regulation:

It could be organized along the lines of residents drawing up a set of community standards and regulations subject to democratic processes. Sims could join a block of standards that then were enforced inside the block. (I don't think it is practical at the parcel level.)

The advantage is that you would get a more diversified grid, and people could settle and set up shop inside a regulatory area they felt comfortable with. 

Linden Lab could get out of the business of micro-managing the grid and only have to satisfy the minimum legal requirements set by the state of CA.

User regultated communities also tend to get much less scrutiny and intervention from politicians and legislators. 

I would be easier to accomodate multiple cultural norms like you always will have in a global audience. 

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Having attended so many Adult Content User Group meetings, do you think that organising residents "to draw up a set of community standards and regulations subject to democratic processes" on Zindra would get very far?   

It works, to an extent, on private estates, in that you can -- as have I done - flag the place as Adult and then impose your own set of restrictions ("don't do anything that upsets Innula, the tenants or the customers") but I can do that because I pay the tier.   But I am trying to imagine getting, let alone maintaining, consensus on Zindra between various factions for very long, and having a really hard time of it.   

[Gavin Hird]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Having attended so many Adult Content User Group meetings, do you think that organising residents "to draw up a set of community standards and regulations subject to democratic processes" on Zindra would get very far?   

It works, to an extent, on private estates, in that you can -- as have I done - flag the place as Adult and then impose your own set of restrictions ("don't do anything that upsets Innula, the tenants or the customers") but I can do that because I pay the tier.   But I am trying to imagine getting, let alone maintaining, consensus on Zindra between various factions for very long, and having a really hard time of it.   

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Well, you can't really compare the two as Zindra was clobbered together by a bunch of business people who quickly found themselves hampered by significant loss of revenue and visibility in combination with destructive Linden Lab representative behavior.

What you would do here, would be to put together a sensible framework – lets just call it legislation for simplicity – and there has been done some significant work on this by i.e. Metaverse Republic, and declare an area of land to be a "protectorate, state, republic, kingdom – whatever you'd like to call it) to be governed by this framework.

Obviously there would have to be an initial buy-in (totally lacking in Zindra), and some rules for how to administer, develop and enforce the "legislation" for the area (more or less lacking in Zindra when push comes to shove.) The democratic rules would be part of the initial framework, and of course the initial buy-in. 

It could be applied to both estate and mainland sims, as whole sims could elect to (by the residents of the sim) to join or step out of the framework.  These sims could be disjoint physically, but still belong to a framework, or legislative area if you may.

It could even be extended to other grids that could belong to a common legislative area (using GOR sims and GOR grids as an example.)

Tehnically it should be possible to create a new administrative domain above group, where you would be notified that you entered a new realm governed by a given set of legislation, and you'd have to accept it to enter. This would also make it possible to have a global ban list for a realm; in essence declaring an avatar persona non-grata inside the realm.

EDIT:

...come to think about it you could almost implement it by extending the current estate to also include mainland. The only difference today is that mainland belongs to a Linden estate, but there there is nothing in the software that says a mainland sim cannot belong to an arbitrary estate. Where you'd have to make some additional functionality would be on landscaping as you obviously don't want a non Linden estate to screw up the mainland landscaping.  

[Dillon Levenque]

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

Who knew Jim Morrison was so clever?

 

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Me.

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The fact that there is little agreement in detail on such things as sex and violence isn't a reason to ignore the views of everyone who

does

have a view on them: it's a more pressing reason to accommodate those different perspectives as best we can. There are lots of ways to do that, of which a ratings system is but one -- but it's an important one, because it is backed by the threat of sanctions.

---

 

I have a lot of respect for you, but on this subject I am in complete disagreement. I do like the idea of a 'PG Place' in SL. I personally enjoy being in a PG environment, most of the time. I like it when I have to watch what I say and do; it makes it feel a bit more like RL. But I just cannot accept that certain non-PG activities should be segregated from others. I simply do not buy into the argument that someone stumbling into a sim that celebrates an activity that particular someone finds horrific or terrible or disgusting is in any way a big deal. Going away is so easy. Can you be TP'd to someplace that invokes memories of something horrible that happened to you in your real life? Yes, I suppose so. But you can also TP out. And you should only have that happen once before you stop being stupid enough to accept tp's from people you don't know and trust.

I think rating adult behavior HERE is a bad idea. Nobody is ignoring anyone's views. If something offends you, avoid it. There was a dance club in the sim next to the one I live in that was so incredibly racist it made me want to throw up. It wasn't close enough to intrude on my space and as far as I know it's long gone—I only happened to see it while exploring the neighborhood to see what was new. But even had it been next door I'd have lived with it. I'd have given it all the crap it could handle and banned anyone who belonged or showed up, but I'd have lived with it. That's what this place is about.

[Jaylin Wytchwood]

 

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Jennifer Boyle wrote:

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

But as we North Americans seem to be far more horrified by sexuality than by violence... 



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Yep. You literally made me laugh out loud.

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Check!

There is an MMO called "Age of Conan", hoving, for an MMO-Game a high level of bloody combat moves, and the ability, to undress the Avatars.

 

Funnily, in the German version, a few of the really hard finishing moves were removed.

In the US-Version, all the bloody moves were still in, but the Avatars wear underwear, that cant be taken off.

 

So, whos scared of what ?

 

[Deltango Vale]

Don't default SL avatars now have paint-on underwear? My great grandmother used to take a bath in her underwear. Poor old Linden Lab, stuck in the 90s - 1890s.

Yes, for some strange reason, North Americans have big hangups about nudity and sex.

[Ceka Cianci]

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Deltango Vale wrote:

Don't default SL avatars now have paint-on underwear? My great grandmother used to take a bath in her underwear. Poor old Linden Lab, stuck in the 90s - 1890s.

Yes, for some strange reason, North Americans have big hangups about nudity and sex.

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whats the population of everyones country? anyone with 250+ million or more raise your hands   \o

[Innula Zenovka]

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Deltango Vale wrote:

Don't default SL avatars now have paint-on underwear? My great grandmother used to take a bath in her underwear. Poor old Linden Lab, stuck in the 90s - 1890s.

Yes, for some strange reason, North Americans have big hangups about nudity and sex.

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To be fair, a lot of people new to SL, whatever their cultural background, don't particularly like finding themselves unintentionally nude in public as a result of their attempts to get to the hang of how to change clothes and stuff.    Voluntary public nudity is a rather different experience to the involuntary kind, at least to my mind.

[Anaiya Arnold]

None of which explains how every other kind of animal in existence, including many that live in large groups with plenty of naked males, manage just fine without clothes. 

[Ceka Cianci]

humans have always had something in them that makes them excited about clothing..

a lot think it is sex that sells when really it is sexy that sells..nude avatars are more boring than ones dressed in nice sexy lingerie..

even something as tiny as a belly chain  or bangles or a garter or even tattoo's can  dress up and change how someone looks at a nude body..

covering the body would excite us more than it showing up uncovered..uncovering it slowly..now thats like unwrapping  a present hehehe..covered excites us because now our curiosity is aroused..

it can be more dangerous than fully exposing someones body..

if you ask me apes would probably be more curious or agressive if they wore undies and bra's hehehehehe

 

nudity to us is only a big deal because a lot of us were told it was over and over by the people around us as we grew from the nude little children feeling free when our diapers came off and too young to have the worries yet ..really i think what makes us look sexy is not nudity..but the jewelry we wear to intice our mates..sometimes that jewelry can be as simple as a bikini for men or a pair of sexy boxers on a man for us..

so if people feel north america is doing it wrong..well i guess it all depends on what some feel is sexy..