Maturity policy boiled down to just one document left in the official parts of the knowledge base.

[Pussycat Catnap]

So what's this mean...

All that's left is:

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Maturity-ratings/ta-p/700119

All of the various discussons and explainations are gone, or moved into 'history':

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/History/Adult_Content_FAQ

This article is obsolete, but kept as a historical record. Do not rely on this information in any way. However, it may be used in the future, so please do not delete or modify.

 

Warning: This article was compiled by Residents and hasn't been reviewed or verified by Linden Lab employees. For official information, refer to the Maturity ratings page.



The one official file says vary little about where 'M' lies on the scale of things.

 

This came up for me when a friend mentioned she was looking to buy land on Zindra.

I went to look at the policy...

And noticed a lot of things gone, and a lot less clarity now. No more relying on any of those various discussions with Blondin - as the compilation of them is now stamped with a big red 'don't rely on this' banner.

Could be interesting now to figure out what's allowed on M and how it differs from G. It seems to still imply nudity is ok, but it takes a little more implying to to reach a conclusion that a private sexbed is ok (all we have now is that they're not ok on G).

 

[Jennifer Boyle]

My house is in Zindra, and I wouldn't have it anywhere else.  It has been there ever since Zindra opened.  I find it to be a pleasant place where  people are mostly nice.  Unlike my previous mainland experience, I have never encountered a griefer there.  I could do what I do in a mature area, but I like the idea of havinng the most possible freedom, even if I don't take full advantage of it.  I also think that, should LL decide to further restict behavior in the future, Zindra is the least likely place to be affected.

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Jennifer Boyle wrote:

My house is in Zindra, and I wouldn't have it anywhere else.  It has been there ever since Zindra opened.  I find it to be a pleasant place where  people are mostly nice.  Unlike my previous mainland experience, I have never encountered a griefer there.  I could do what I do in a mature area, but I like the idea of havinng the most possible freedom, even if I don't take full advantage of it.  I also think that, should LL decide to further restict behavior in the future, Zindra is the least likely place to be affected.

---

Ok but what's that got to do with the price of cheese in Istanbul?

Or better yet - the policy going from a series of links to dropping all reference to anything but the one document?

[Jennifer Boyle]

"This came up for me when a friend mentioned she was looking to buy land on Zindra."

I was offering additional information about why Zindra is a desirable place, notwithsatanding the deficient doceumentation of Mature and Adult.

[Sassy Romano]

I'm all for it, i'd be quite happy to see M disappear and then we'll have adults on one continent and teens on another.  Oh wait, we had that before lol.

 

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

Item #1: If you have been banned, you have broken a rule.

Item #2: If you want to know what the rules are, see Item #1.

Far from good policy, I say. (T_T)

 

 

[Ceka Cianci]

when reading the maturity definitions you have to look at it as if you were a business or someone using search or some sort of advertising to promote your land..looking at it as they are talking to private residents will keep it confusing..

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

The original wiki page and resident discussions with Blondin obviously contained too much clarity. Those responsible for governance, whether political or corporate, will almost always prefer fuzziness and vagueness over clarity, as the former allows them more lattitude and freedom of action.

I'd certainly like to see an awful lot more clarity in the description of "M," which seems largely to be defined negatively -- i.e., it is not "A" or "G." (I still think that "Adult" is a pretty hilarious misnomer to describe the sorts of things that characteristically go on in "Adult" areas . . . :matte-motes-oh-rly:)

I'd also like to see depictions of consensual sex moved back into "M," so someone seeking a "vanilla" experience (i.e., one not involving instruments of torture, degredation, or murder and the like) isn't exposed to representations of violence. But as we North Americans seem to be far more horrified by sexuality than by violence (much of which is still permitted in "M" areas), I guess that isn't going to happen.

@sassy:  There are a great many people who are neither teens nor prudes who would like experiences that fall between "G" and "Adult." As in RL, I don't want much to hang out in a community run by the Moral Majority, but I also don't necessarily want to be living next door to a BDSM dungeon.



[Sassy Romano]

---

Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

@sassy:  There are a great many people who are neither teens nor prudes who would like experiences that fall between "G" and "Adult." As in RL, I don't want much to hang out in a community run by the Moral Majority, but I also don't necessarily want to be living next door to a BDSM dungeon.



---

When we just had two classifcations, where did you live?  I'm not seeking confrontation, just asking.  They added "adult" after several years, how was it before then?  After adding adult, M tended towards confusion.  A is the new M.  M is the new G for adults and G is the teen grid.  That's how I see it anyway.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

---

Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

@sassy:  There are a great many people who are neither teens nor prudes who would like experiences that fall between "G" and "Adult." As in RL, I don't want much to hang out in a community run by the Moral Majority, but I also don't necessarily want to be living next door to a BDSM dungeon.



---

When we just had two classifcations, where did you live?  I'm not seeking confrontation, just asking.  They added "adult" after several years, how was it before then?  After adding adult, M tended towards confusion.  A is the new M.  M is the new G for adults and G is the teen grid.  That's how I see it anyway.

---

Well, I "lived" and explored mostly in Mature, which generally served my needs. But I frequently found myself annoyed at exploring what I thought was a "medieval" sim, only to stumble across BDSM or Gorean dungeons. Or watching a porn palace, with easily observable large-format RL photos, moving in next door to my favourite hangout.

I'd agree that the current system fosters confusion:  hence my criticism of it, above. But the principle of giving people more choice in the kinds of experience they have in SL is a good one.  How could providing choice not be?

[Ceka Cianci]

actually blondin was speaking with residents..but it was residents that were merchants..

these are the ones directly affected by the changes and ratings.

 

if we look at the definitions as if we were opening a business it all makes sense..if we look at it from a private residents view we have a hard time seeing anything mentioned about us..

the reason is because private residents don't advertise  the things they do in sl or  on their lands..

 

an example would be say an escort living on mature land that owns land..she takes her customers to her home to perform her job..there is nothing wrong with that..she is still following the guidelines of mature rating..

now she see's there is a good interest in her so she wants to widen her horizons more to get more customers..

so she says to herself..i'll put an add in search..that should get me more customers..

so she looks over the rating definitions and see's where she would fit in..she see's that advertising sex from her home would have her fitting into Adult content rating..so she would have to move to an adult rated land...

not advertising and she could  still do what she was doing before and stay on mature..she would still be considered a private residrent having sex in her own home because she is not promoting her business from her mature land..

Adult definitions do tell us what we can have on mature  by telling us what has to be on adult.. if we decide to go public with those things or whatever falls under those things that qualify for adult..we have to rate up to adult or move to adult..if we don't go public with them we can stay on mature..

 

 

it is very confusing if we look at it from a private residents point of view..because all three definitions are telling those that wish to open a business or have a business or something that is for public use..look here to see where you fit in..

and if you are not sure..you better check to make sure you are not operating like one of these or you will get a rating of one of these or moved  if we find out you are and are doing it in the wrong place heheheh ..

 

in other words private residents and their private homes don't fall under the ratings defenitions.

nothing has changed from what it was before for private residents..

we could never be nude or have sex on General lands..it's always been disney..

 

if we look at the CS we see right away what rating they are speaking of..adult is all that stuff that is open to the public and in search and things we would do in our bedrooms gone live on channle 9 so to speak hehehe..so this part of the CS is speaking about pretty much advertising..

what is highlighted in blue is also speaking about land and groups and listings and events and other things that are ment to draw the public so to speak..

it's not speaking about private residents and things they do in their private homes..because private residents don't advertise..

 

1. Adult Regions, Groups, and Listings

   Second Life is an adult community, but "Adult" content, activity and communication are not permitted on the Second Life "mainland." Such material is permitted on private regions, or on the Adult Continent, Zindra. In either case, any Adult content, activity, or communication, that falls under our Adult Maturity Definitions must be on regions designated as "Adult," and will be filtered from non-verified accounts. Other regions may be designated as either "Moderate" or "General." For more information on how to designate land, events, groups, and classified listings, please carefully read the"Maturity Definitions"

i hope i didn't just add to the confusion  lol

[Ceka Cianci]

Actually for private residents as far as rules go are pretty much where they were before the adult changes..

the same things apply to them now that did back then..the only difference is they can buy adult rated land if they want..but they don't have to..unless they feel they need it..

they can do the same things now that they were doing before..

if ratings were set up to where we had to qualify to be able to move to those lands..private residents would not qualify for adult  rated lands..

[Jennifer Boyle]

---

Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

But as we North Americans seem to be far more horrified by sexuality than by violence... 



---

Yep. You literally made me laugh out loud.

[Suella Ember]

This debate is all well and good, but what I want to  know is, what is the price of cheese in Istanbul?!

[Janelle Darkstone]

---

Suella Ember wrote:

This debate is all well and good, but what I want to  know is, what

is

the price of cheese in Istanbul?!

---

[Dillon Levenque]

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

actually blondin was speaking with residents..but it was residents that were merchants..

these are the ones directly affected by the changes and ratings.

 

 

in other words private residents and their private homes don't fall under the ratings defenitions.

nothing has changed from what it was before for private residents..

we could never be nude or have sex on General lands..it's always been disney..

 

it's not speaking about private residents and things they do in their private homes..because private residents don't advertise..

---

I was wondering about that and still am. I looked at a piece of land for sale in a G (as in PG) sim and having read the current ratings wasn't sure. Did that mean I couldn't have a sexbed in my house? The owner never answered probably  because he or she didn't know either. It says one can not be 'located' without any further descpription.

A typical (if there is such a thing) American residential area in RL is pretty much PG. Anything out of line would draw fire from somebody. But I am almost positive that behind closed doors sexual intercourse takes place in those areas. I do realize that 'camming' in SL is a lot easier and less expensive than doing so in RL, but it seems to me that a person should be allowed some discretion in his or her private residence no matter where it's located. I even read a quote from a Linden on one of the wiki's saying in essence that 'we won't be looking at what people are doing in their houses'. Is that official?

I'd like to see those definitions 'unfuzzed' at least to that degree.

[Deltango Vale]

Linden Lab will spend eternity and a day trying to define categories of avatar appearance and behavior. It's like trying to divide the color spectrum into unique bands. At what point does vermilion become burnt orange? This was pointed out repeatedly to Linden Lab by no less than a hundred trillion people when the 'adult' policy was announced. One quote by Miro Collas stood out very clearly at the time:

I have lived exactly this scenario, in a different setting, the Open Directory Project. The result of attempting to define "adult" results only in bickering and fighting, from the moment you make the decision to *create* a definition, the fighting will continue until either the idea is scrapped or the place shuts down. Fighting not only among residents, but also staff. Been there, done that, for 5 years, have the scars still. It is ugly. And ultimately not worth it....

It was also pointed out clearly by no less than a hundred trillion people that PG/Disney, being at the extreme end of a self-selecting subset of the SL population, would be easier to define as a maturity level and easier to monitor on a separate, purpose-built continent. In other words, Zindra should have been designated PG/Disney, but, as usual, Linden Lab did its clapping-monkey-in-the-head-of-Homer-Simpson routine and got everything backwards.

The solution now remains the original solution: construct a zero-nudity, zero-sex continent for kids and those who crave such restrictions and convert the rest of the mainland back to Mature (meaning 18+, meaning adult, meaning grown-up, meaning mind your own business in a global, multicultural environment). Personally, I would jettison the underage players, but if we must have them, park them on a PG/Disney continent with PG/Disney residents. Problem solved.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Well, LL would have loved to keep this whole issue in the domain of the marketplace, and certainly their laughingly-termed "consultation" process involved only a select handful of tame merchants, educators, and . . . well, who knows?  The names were never publicized. It was a small, select "elite" crowd.

But what became very clear early on is that the impact of this went far beyond stores and Xstreet listings. Art galleries in Mature land were ARed for "nudity," and there was a lot of very real anxiety about what sorts of behaviours were permitted where. An awful lot of what was addressed at office hours at that time focused on the merchants, because they had the loudest voices, and the biggest "stake," but read the forums from that time, and you'll get a broader picture.

I'm afraid that, while I agree that there are immense difficulties in clearly categorizing content, I have to disagree with Del that categories should simply be abandoned. The world isn't easy divisible between those who are "disnifeyed" and those who don't mind tripping over blood-stained St. Andrews Crosses: there are lots of shades in between, and any reasonable society has to make some effort to accommodate that -- just as in RL. The difficulty of categorizing hasn't prevented my RL government from effectively preventing strip clubs from opening up next door to me, nor are there really immense problems with keeping people from having sex on their front lawns where I live. What is needed is a recognizable system that is transparent, fair, and non-arbitrary.

Additionally, there is something rather dismissive and contemptuous about the "let them have their own grid" attitude that entirely belittles the real contributions that people who prefer PG actually make to SL. We are all stronger and more interesting for diversity. I don't want to hang with JUST the PG crowd, or JUST the Adult crowd, and I want SL to reflect the variety of both.

[Deltango Vale]

@ everyone

I must admit, I am baffled by people's obsession with sexuality. To understand the absurdity of sexual classifications, imagine the whole rating debate replayed for builds. Let's say, for some bizarre reason, Linden Lab decides to zone SL based of the size, shape and color of houses. One group screams that SL should be partitioned into L (large), M (medium) and S (small) houses. Linden Lab then opens a rip-roaring debate on the definition of a 'large' house as opposed to a 'medium' house.

The fora catch fire: Person A says that a diagonal line should be used to measure the size of a house. Person B says total prim count should be the working definition. Person C says average color saturation x max width should help reconcile the differences. Person D rants that houses are evil. Person E gets into a flame war with Person D. Thousands and thousands of posts about how to define small, medium and large houses.

Then cooler heads chime in and ask why there should be a debate about house sizes at all? They point out the problems of defining house sizes and problems of enforcing such definitions. Moreover, they explain, some people like big palaces, others like Medieval castles, others like country cottages and others like modern glass bungalows. If a Spanish person wants to build a Bullring on his land or a Frenchman builds a chateau or an Indian builds the Taj Mahal, what are the neighbors to do? AR the builders because they don't like Bullrings or Medieval castles next to their treehouses?

And yet we conduct this same lunatic debate for dress codes and behavior codes with respect to appearance and sexuality. Person Q says he does not like nudity (or purple houses). Person R says she does not like public displays of sexuality (or French chateaus). Person S says he does not want to be exposed to another person's sexual fantasies (or red brick office blocks). Meanwhile the people who like purple houses, French chateaus and red brick office blocks ask why the hell they can only build in a separate continent. Why, they ask, should LL set country cottages as the norm and standard for SL?

Oh, but sexuality is different from houses! Is it? Is it really? Why? Think about it. Think deeply. Explain to aliens landing on Earth why sexuality should be treated differently from - exaggerated way out of proportion to - musical tastes, academic specialties, career choices, hair color, food preferences or, closer to home, whether to have children or not? Shall we partition SL into R (rock & roll), M (metal), H (hiphop) and F (folk)? How about R (Republican) and D (Democrat)? C (Christian), J (Jewish), M (Muslim), B (Buddhist)? Perhaps E (university degree) and H (high school only). Absurd? Of course. It is equally absurd to partition SL based on sexual tastes and preferences.

And yet, for some wild and crazy reason, people get all worked up about other people's sexuality as if it were somehow different from hair color or house types. If someone were to rant about how redheads should be banned from SL, he would be treated as a kook (yet it seems perfectly acceptable to rant about child avis). If someone began a campaign to stop builds being taller than 20 meters, he would be ridiculed (yet banning avatar breasts in a Marketplace ad barely raises an eyebrow). If a group of people formed a committee to force rock-metal clubs to Zindra, they would get shouted down as anathema to SL (yet it was fine to force strip clubs to move to Zindra). Everyone is a tolerant of other people except when it comes to sexuality. We all agree to respect other people's religion and politics, but mention sexuality and all hell breaks loose as if it were a serious topic for 'community control'. We wouldn't dream of partitioning SL based on race, religion, politics or gender, yet here we are, partitioning SL based on sexual preferences.

Personally, I would eliminate all the maturity levels, but I am quite willing to have a PG/Disney continent for those who want the seclusion and conformity of a zero-sexuality environment. I offer the analogy of a lighting dimmer switch: 'off' or a wide range of 'on'. In my opinion a PG/Disney continent would represent the 'sexuality off' setting; the rest of SL would represent the wide range of 'sexuality on'.

Perhaps more importantly, people need to get a passport and see the world. I realize SL caters specifically to those who can't easily travel, but at least read books about the world, discover the huge differences in national customs and social norms, learn about human sensuality in different cultures and sub-cultures, go to some clubs! The world is a marvelous place, rich in diversity. That people come to SL from all over the world makes it imperative we avoid narrow thinking and crude sexual stereotypes. If SL is to survive, we must stop being dogmatic about personal tastes and preferences.

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

when reading the maturity definitions you have to look at it as if you were a business or someone using search or some sort of advertising to promote your land..looking at it as they are talking to private residents will keep it confusing..

 

---

I know...

And that drives me nuts because I suspect a -LOT- of us do more in SL than -just- sell stuff to the noobs.

After all... the noobs buy the stuff, for a reason. Usually that reason is to go do 'stuffz'.

So what kinda stuffz can we do where?

-sigh-

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

 

I'd also like to see depictions of consensual sex moved back into "M," so someone seeking a "vanilla" experience (i.e., one not involving instruments of torture, degredation, or murder and the like) isn't exposed to representations of violence. But as we North Americans seem to be far more horrified by sexuality than by violence (much of which is still permitted in "M" areas), I guess that isn't going to happen.



---

I'd prefer the addition of a 'V' rating for violent. A for 'teh sexxors' and V for the whips and chains.

- Though I guess then we'd be arguing over where the BDSM folks fall...

 

 

[Dillon Levenque]

---

Deltango Vale wrote:

We all agree to respect other people's religion and politics, but mention sexuality and all hell breaks loose as if it were a serious topic for 'community control'. We wouldn't dream of partitioning SL based on race, religion, politics or gender, yet here we are, partitioning SL based on sexual preferences.

Personally, I would eliminate all the maturity levels, but I am quite willing to have a PG/Disney continent for those who want the seclusion and conformity of a zero-sexuality environment. I offer the analogy of a lighting dimmer switch: 'off' or a wide range of 'on'. In my opinion a PG/Disney continent would represent the 'sexuality off' setting; the rest of SL would represent the wide range of 'sexuality on'.

Perhaps more importantly, people need to get a passport and see the world. I realize SL caters specifically to those who can't easily travel, but at least read books about the world, discover the huge differences in national customs and social norms, learn about human sensuality in different cultures and sub-cultures, go to some clubs! The world is a marvelous place, rich in diversity. That people come to SL from all over the world makes it imperative we avoid narrow thinking and crude sexual stereotypes. If SL is to survive, we must stop being dogmatic about personal tastes and preferences.

---

Deltango, I will argue with you a little about some of this. You and I have talked here and elsewhere about how SL's tolerance has made being here such a wonderful experience for me personally. I don't get anything from the 'Rating' rules that defines sexuality or even discusses same. The rules are, as I understand it, merely in place to describe the behavior permitted in certain places. Granted, that can lead to absurdities such as ones mentioned earlier in which galleries were reported for showing pictures of unclothed humans. I would hope that doesn't happen often and when it does is quickly corrected. But even that has to do with behavior or at least graphical representation. It has nothing to do with sexuality. I purely love that I can go anywhere and carry on a conversation with anyone here without my particular sexual preferences being relevant to the discussion.

I still disagree with anything that prohibits any behavior done in private, even given the fact that privacy in Second Life doesn't really exist. If something is happening behind walls it's private, SL or RL. The fact that someone can 'cam' through the wall and watch is the problem of that someone. This of course assumes that the wall doesn't have a big sign reading "Hot All Nude Sexshow Inside!".

I do agree that there should be only two ratings. PG or Not PG. That should be enough. I can understand not being pleased at discovering that a brothel is opening next door to your lovely cottage. I'd not dig that myself (although when a Ladies Only dance club was being built across the way I must admit I looked forward to rounding up strays). But stuff like that is pretty easily controlled by picking your spots. Live on an estate with a covenant. Rent. The Mainland should be open.

Your last paragraph I agree with completely. Learn. Grow.

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

---

When we just had two classifcations, where did you live?  I'm not seeking confrontation, just asking.  They added "adult" after several years, how was it before then?  After adding adult, M tended towards confusion.  A is the new M.  M is the new G for adults and G is the teen grid.  That's how I see it anyway.

---

I think that this is what gave SL a 'roll your eyes' impression in the general public. The lack of a place for people who wanted something in between Disney and Hustler.

At that time I was in my 'omg this sexxors stuffz is so funny, strap me to a pole somebody and just make sure I put my coffee cup down first before I start laughing at all these funny guys getting into this' stage... so I was happy to hit some of the sex-clubs.

BUT... I still paid careful attention to the ones that were violent and worked to avoid them.

BUT... sometimes they're crowd of people would just show up next to me anywhere. Girls on leashed collars running around nude on all fours. People stopping to beat them using animations they had on them, or walking to the road outside of a shop and seeing people 'getting it on'...

Sometimes it was not funny, but I had no option to avoid it unless I wanted to break out in a song and dance number of 'Its a small world after all!'

 

I'm not pleased with even less calrity now over what M means. Its was vague enough before...

 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Deltango Vale wrote:

 

Oh, but sexuality is different from houses! Is it? Is it really? Why? Think about it. Think deeply.

---

Because we are halfway between chimps and bonobos.

When we see a strange nude, we either want to rip it limb from limb as a threat to our mating rights, or we want to bounce on it like a bunny...

And to avoid either of these complications, we have a better brain than either the chimp or the bonobo that lets us develop tricks to con our instincts with a bit of 'slight of hand' distraction. "See that male has no **bleep**, no need to kill him" (well, actually, he's just wearing clothes... but the slight of hand works).

- That probably reads pretty crazy... I wrote it up in more detail in a post in the avatars thread on why can't we walk around nude...

Sadly we're not in Eden, and outside of small tribal units, we're not evolved enough to handle the pressure from our instincts.

So yeah... sex is different. Because we're biological creatures.

 

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Del, personally I agree with you entirely about sexual hang ups.  I don't particularly "want" to run across people going at it all over the place, but neither would it much bother me.  That's why I suggested that representations of consensual sexual practices be permitted again in "M" areas.

So, assuming that happened . . . would you then take issue with those who get turned off by violence? Is it equally "silly" to be nauseated or disturbed by animations depicting gutting, garroting, throat-slitting, or rape? Should we all just take a deep breath and realize that these too are just part of the "human experience"?

And I'll say it again, because I don't think you really answered it: what is wrong about giving people choices? No one here is talking about banning different forms of sexuality -- sex is no more "ghettoized" in Zindra than "prudery" (to use a loaded term) is being "ghettoized" in PG areas. 

It seems to me a bit arrogant to decide that because you -- and I -- are cool about sexuality, others must be "educated" through forced exposure into a similar attitude.  Real tolerance, surely, is providing a place where everyone can feel "safe" and at home.