Scylla Rhiadra Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 17 hours ago, Qie Niangao said: I've observed wildly varying behavior from one login to the next, without even restarting the phone or tablet. Sometimes it rezzes my avatar and surroundings without much delay, and sometimes I stay a ghostly, unanimated outline in mostly unrezzed surroundings until I just have to give up and go do stuff. Try again right away and maybe it'll be fine. No pattern I've been able to discern. This has been my experience. Generally, though, so long as I don't go anywhere, it looks fine and works well. TP somewhere else, and it's a crap shoot. Including, most amusingly, leaving the camera behind when I go . . . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InnerCity Elf Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 On 9/11/2024 at 2:55 AM, Coffee Pancake said: Android Play store : 2.6 stars. The <5 star reviews are harsh, and all of them predictable before launch. The low reviews that I saw, complain about installing the app and then not being able to use it, though, because you need to be premium plus or whatever - which should most apparently be communicated clearer. The reviews of people who actually could use the app, seemed mostly positive. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 Were I designing this thing, I'd bear in mind two target audiences. 1) Existing users, who mostly are probably not going to need or want a fully-loaded viewer, but will want access to a full range of communication tools, the ability to shop on the MP, and the ability to move money (and maybe inventory) around. 2) New users. I think that, initially, they should focus on potential segments of a new demographic. Judging by what is popular both in SL, and in other games and apps, I'd focus first on avatar customization. Give people the basic tools to play Barbie on this app, and I'm reasonably confident you'll find a market. What I don't think is needed initially as much is 1) the ability to explore, go places, or interact with scripted objects in-world, and 2) the ability to build. Start off small. Focus on doing a few things that are likely to attract users, old and new, very well. Then start expanding what can be done with this thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynite00 Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 16 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said: I believe - it could just be me - that your initial statement above is a tad bit cynical. Cynical? Perhaps. Accurate? You bet! 5 hours ago, Istelathis said: To answer the original post, in the most concise and accurate way possible. At this time, the mobile viewer is for people who enjoy beta testing. It is not for people who dislike beta testing, it is more than likely going to just frustrate people who expect to have a fully functioning viewer while it is still being created, and while bugs still exist, as well as while functionality is not present. It is for people that enjoy tinkering around, looking for problems, and being part of the development cycle even if it is in a small way. As to the end goal, when it is out of beta testing, it is anyone's guess, just like we will have a hard time pinpointing exactly what Second Life is for, we have some that insist it is for art, some that insist it is for sex, some that insist that it is building, etc, etc, etc - I mean, not most people, most people just do what they enjoy doing. I think at this point, through all of LL's products, they are for beta-testers and tinkerers. If I were to encapsulate how I view LL and their staff, from 'testing' their products from Blocksworld to SL to Sansar... definitely 'tinkerers' and beta testers. As much as I have enjoyed SL and participated, it has always seemed like an unfinished product 'with potential', but after 20 years... still waiting for the full experience to happen and for management and team to get serious. It is what it is... but it is definitely lots of tinkering. They're not named Linden Lab Research for nothing. 4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Were I designing this thing, I'd bear in mind two target audiences. 1) Existing users, who mostly are probably not going to need or want a fully-loaded viewer, but will want access to a full range of communication tools, the ability to shop on the MP, and the ability to move money (and maybe inventory) around. 2) New users. I think that, initially, they should focus on potential segments of a new demographic. Judging by what is popular both in SL, and in other games and apps, I'd focus first on avatar customization. Give people the basic tools to play Barbie on this app, and I'm reasonably confident you'll find a market. What I don't think is needed initially as much is 1) the ability to explore, go places, or interact with scripted objects in-world, and 2) the ability to build. Start off small. Focus on doing a few things that are likely to attract users, old and new, very well. Then start expanding what can be done with this thing. When an app presents itself as access to SL, I expect it to give me the full experience, not much unlike logging into Roblox and able to play games and have full access (with expected mobile limitations) to the platform. I'm not there to be a tester, so don't release an unfinished app, or my review WILL BE "Unfinished app, can't access games, says I can't do this that.. wait until full release" 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 19 minutes ago, Cynite00 said: Cynical? Perhaps. Accurate? You bet! I think at this point, through all of LL's products, they are for beta-testers and tinkerers. If I were to encapsulate how I view LL and their staff, from 'testing' their products from Blocksworld to SL to Sansar... definitely 'tinkerers' and beta testers. As much as I have enjoyed SL and participated, it has always seemed like an unfinished product 'with potential', but after 20 years... still waiting for the full experience to happen and for management and team to get serious. It is what it is... but it is definitely lots of tinkering. They're not named Linden Lab Research for nothing. When an app presents itself as access to SL, I expect it to give me the full experience, not much unlike logging into Roblox and able to play games and have full access (with expected mobile limitations) to the platform. I'm not there to be a tester, so don't release an unfinished app, or my review WILL BE "Unfinished app, can't access games, says I can't do this that.. wait until full release" So, do you feel your information quoted below is helpful? Or is it intended to be sarcastic, and essentially a "negative review"? Do you feel that LL will be able to take this information and make some positive change? 19 hours ago, diamond Marchant said: At this point, I suggest that this particular mobile viewer exists so that people employed at Linden Lab can report in meetings that they are doing stuff... you know... to justify their salaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynite00 Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: So, do you feel your information quoted below is helpful? Or is it intended to be sarcastic, and essentially a "negative review"? Do you feel that LL will be able to take this information and make some positive change? Yes. All feedback is helpful, and many times valid. LL needs to hear this, and hear it repeatedly and ASAP so that they make the appropriate changes to give the customer what they want (or even attain their own professed goals). My review and feedback style as always been 1) Genuine 2) Pointing out realistic flaws and detrimental things 3) Being blunt about it 4) Many times offering/suggesting solutions People can label that feedback anyway they want, but I sincerely believe LL needs to hear it all - and as blunt as possible - so that they live in reality, and make proper decisions based on it. I don't expect them or anyone else to tailor to me specifically, but I do want my points considered.... without being 'tone policed' Edited September 12 by Cynite00 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaerolleClaudel Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 6 hours ago, Istelathis said: It is for people that enjoy tinkering around, looking for problems, and being part of the development cycle even if it is in a small way. As to the end goal, when it is out of beta testing, it is anyone's guess, just like we will have a hard time pinpointing… “May the gods grant me the years to see the mobile app fully functional!” 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: 1) Existing users, who mostly are probably not going to need or want a fully-loaded viewer, but will want access to a full range of communication tools, the ability to shop on the MP, and the ability to move money (and maybe inventory) around. 2) New users. I think that, initially, they should focus on potential segments of a new demographic. Judging by what is popular both in SL, and in other games and apps, I'd focus first on avatar customization. Give people the basic tools to play Barbie on this app, and I'm reasonably confident you'll find a market. What I don't think is needed initially as much is 1) the ability to explore, go places, or interact with scripted objects in-world, and 2) the ability to build. Maybe we could formulate prioritized lists of activities the mobile viewer must accommodate in order to be useful and/or attractive to different demographics, and take some stab at drawing the line of "minimum viability" for each. Existing users, for example, can fall back on a combination of the desktop viewer and the website to do SL-related stuff, as they do now. I'm pretty useless for prioritizing features for existing users because personally, I'd almost never use a mobile client that only did comms, MP shopping, and Inventory-shuffling, even though I realize those would all be very appealing for many. I hadn't even thought of needing avatar customization for new users, but yeah: that's a whole thing that people enjoy doing as an end in itself. Unfortunately I bet it's monstrously complex to implement in SL because our avatars consist of all these archeological strata of interacting complexity. What's the "minimum viable" set? Does it include being able to re-order BoM items within a layer, to get that new tattoo on top of the skin that was delivered on the tattoo layer? And honestly, I end up in the build tool before I finish with most outfits, so… okay, that part isn't for the new users. So, there would need to be some additional customization beyond the currently supported choice among outfits in inventory. This process of formulating requirements is starting to feel perilously like work. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaerolleClaudel Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 46 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said: I hadn't even thought of needing avatar customization for new users, but yeah: that's a whole thing that people enjoy doing as an end in itself. IIRC you can choose some different outfits and hair for the Sansa but to *really* play virtual Barbie you need access to the MP. And for these new users I would think it needs to be in the app, and not requiring them to go to MP on a browser, though I guess they could do that on their mobile too. Seems to me that LL has a LOT of high hurdles to making the app appealing to anyone other than the existing users who want to communicate and manage their money. I guess we’ll see how it goes, I find it fascinating to watch what is going on lol. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 Wouldn't access to your avatar's "appearance sliders" be useful, even if using Mesh Head/Body HUDs is a long way off (or never)? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaerolleClaudel Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 17 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: Wouldn't access to your avatar's "appearance sliders" be useful, even if using Mesh Head/Body HUDs is a long way off (or never)? Give it a few years, it’s just beta, m’ok? 😉😂 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 1 hour ago, CaerolleClaudel said: IIRC you can choose some different outfits and hair for the Sansa but to *really* play virtual Barbie you need access to the MP. And for these new users I would think it needs to be in the app, and not requiring them to go to MP on a browser, though I guess they could do that on their mobile too. Seems to me that LL has a LOT of high hurdles to making the app appealing to anyone other than the existing users who want to communicate and manage their money. I guess we’ll see how it goes, I find it fascinating to watch what is going on lol. I keep toying with a vague, amorphous concept that there could be some rearrangement of what's done in the (desktop) viewer and on the web, such that the web exposure also benefits the app somehow. I hate the Marketplace so much that I can't be rational about it, but I've said for years that (some future generation of) the Marketplace needs to be unified with in-world vending, which could be a way to make some practical use of the (no longer recent) Casper buy-out: If they can define a way merchants establish an item is for sale, and then make it a seamless operation for it to be listed on the Marketplace and offered on the merchant's choice of vendor locations, maybe that same operation can expose it to the mobile viewer. Of course that all assumes there's some very secure means of conducting L$ transactions in the mobile viewer. But it seems as if that's much in demand for existing users anyway, to pay rent, bribe the DJ, pay the alt's blackmail demands, or something. Personally, I'd never buy L$s on a mobile viewer, and in fact I never would on the desktop viewer either, but then I don't actually buy L$s, so that's not saying much. Still, if I did buy L$s, I wouldn't feel inconvenienced by going to the LindeX webpage, but presumably it's in LL's interest to make it as easy as possible to put US$s into the SL economy—especially in the "social casino" and skilled gaming regions. Oh. Would Combat 2.0 sports betting be considered skilled gaming? Oh, no, very bad idea. Never mind. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said: Oh. Would Combat 2.0 sports betting be considered skilled gaming? Oh, no, very bad idea. Never mind. We need "fractional L$", surely "betting" L$0.02 would be ok. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 3 hours ago, CaerolleClaudel said: “May the gods grant me the years to see the mobile app fully functional!” Plan A (the apparent) - Tinker poke & hope at great expense. Fail to understand poor outcomes. Sansar bubble party. Plan B (gear up) - Realize this landed like a lead balloon, address and restructure development teams, hire in house devs & managers with established mobile credentials, Srs Bizness. Plan C (hello nurse) - SIKE! It was all to woo a buyer and it worked. I for one welcome our new moon based ai crypto cutting edge fintech pastry overlords. Place your bets! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 Just now, Coffee Pancake said: Tinker poke & hope This sounds like my Slex life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said: Maybe we could formulate prioritized lists of activities the mobile viewer must accommodate in order to be useful and/or attractive to different demographics, and take some stab at drawing the line of "minimum viability" for each. Existing users, for example, can fall back on a combination of the desktop viewer and the website to do SL-related stuff, as they do now. I'm pretty useless for prioritizing features for existing users because personally, I'd almost never use a mobile client that only did comms, MP shopping, and Inventory-shuffling, even though I realize those would all be very appealing for many. I don't really have much use for it myself, but I do have friends who use or have used Speedlight and Lumiya largely to pop-in and keep in touch with friends. They don't seem to "do" anything -- they'll just stand on a platform and shoot IMs back and forth. I suspect that that sort of thing is likely to be one of the more important ways the mobile viewer might be used. And we know from what has been said here that people would like a quick and easy way to do housekeeping chores when they're away from the computer, or can't log in on a regular viewer -- paying rent, for instance. Those are really the only main insights I have into how existing users might want to employ the mobile viewer: they are anecdotal and I'm sure incomplete. One would hope that LL has done some market research on this???? 2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said: I hadn't even thought of needing avatar customization for new users, but yeah: that's a whole thing that people enjoy doing as an end in itself. Unfortunately I bet it's monstrously complex to implement in SL because our avatars consist of all these archeological strata of interacting complexity. What's the "minimum viable" set? Does it include being able to re-order BoM items within a layer, to get that new tattoo on top of the skin that was delivered on the tattoo layer? And honestly, I end up in the build tool before I finish with most outfits, so… okay, that part isn't for the new users. So, there would need to be some additional customization beyond the currently supported choice among outfits in inventory. Yeah, it would be complicated -- but if this were a focus of development initially, it might be possible? We just know that mucking about with avatar customization is a very popular activity among users in SL, and that it's also a really important part of the appeal of other apps such as the Sims. I think, in fact, that there are simple phone apps that are just about playing Barbie. But that process is, as you note, not easy in SL. Caer makes this relevant point: 1 hour ago, CaerolleClaudel said: IIRC you can choose some different outfits and hair for the Sansa but to *really* play virtual Barbie you need access to the MP. And for these new users I would think it needs to be in the app, and not requiring them to go to MP on a browser, though I guess they could do that on their mobile too. One problem is that a great many avatar components, such as mesh heads and bodies, aren't even available on the MP: you have to buy them in-world. So there's an additional wrinkle. 2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said: This process of formulating requirements is starting to feel perilously like work. Yes, but I sure that LL has been doing that "work," right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 6 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said: Would Combat 2.0 sports betting be considered skilled gaming? Oh, no, very bad idea. Never mind. Absolutely. What SL needs is monetized blood sports! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaerolleClaudel Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 3 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said: I keep toying with a vague, amorphous concept that there could be some rearrangement of what's done in the (desktop) viewer and on the web, such that the web exposure also benefits the app somehow. I hate the Marketplace so much that I can't be rational about it, but I've said for years that (some future generation of) the Marketplace needs to be unified with in-world vending, which could be a way to make some practical use of the (no longer recent) Casper buy-out: If they can define a way merchants establish an item is for sale, and then make it a seamless operation for it to be listed on the Marketplace and offered on the merchant's choice of vendor locations, maybe that same operation can expose it to the mobile viewer. Of course that all assumes there's some very secure means of conducting L$ transactions in the mobile viewer. But it seems as if that's much in demand for existing users anyway, to pay rent, bribe the DJ, pay the alt's blackmail demands, or something. Personally, I'd never buy L$s on a mobile viewer, and in fact I never would on the desktop viewer either, but then I don't actually buy L$s, so that's not saying much. Still, if I did buy L$s, I wouldn't feel inconvenienced by going to the LindeX webpage, but presumably it's in LL's interest to make it as easy as possible to put US$s into the SL economy—especially in the "social casino" and skilled gaming regions. Oh. Would Combat 2.0 sports betting be considered skilled gaming? Oh, no, very bad idea. Never mind. Yeah, I too despise the MP, though most people seem to be successful at finding things and consider it very useful. Probably just incompetence on my part. I *only* buy Lindens through the SL viewers lol. May be a bad idea, I dunno. And while I am sure am a pretty small customer relative to a lot of other people, I have spent a lot of money in SL over the years. Most of that was in bursts when upgrading my main avi or upgrading or duplicating an alt, but for me it was a lot. I got lucky one time and did it the week of US Black Friday, and saved a ton of money, but when I did major upgrades to my avi a few months ago, plus buying new clothes and hair, I spent probably at least 80 USD. I also tip (bribe lol) Hosts and DJs pretty well, and do it at every club I visit, which can be several a night when I am active in SL. I also make donations to various sites. Plus, when I am active in SL I always keep some place to set as Home. In the end, if I had to go to some external site to buy money, I would spend a lot less of it. I typically buy about 20 USD Lindens at a time and it is just so easy to hit Buy in a viewer lol. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Absolutely. What SL needs is monetized blood sports! The oft-advertised "Wrestling" Federation (?) has a head start! (I wonder if they make L$?) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 3 minutes ago, CaerolleClaudel said: I *only* buy Lindens through the SL viewers lol. May be a bad idea, I dunno. No no noo .. only one step worse than buying L$ at the marketplace checkout. Limit buy on the website. More L$ for your real monies. It's easy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaerolleClaudel Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: The oft-advertised "Wrestling" Federation (?) has a head start! (I wonder if they make L$?) I had a Mistress once who made me wrestle another sub. It may surprise people, but I seriously hated it. I am extremely non-competitive and very much against fighting with people. In the end the other sub and I worked it out so the contests were boring and Mistress got frustrated at how bad we were and abandoned the whole thing. But maybe that is a thing, sub wrestling contests lol. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaerolleClaudel Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: No no noo .. only one step worse than buying L$ at the marketplace checkout. Limit buy on the website. More L$ for your real monies. It's easy. So Lindens are cheaper on whatever website you can buy them on outside a viewer? It would have to be a fair amount to overcome the convenience for me. Thanks for the tip though! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 1 minute ago, CaerolleClaudel said: I had a Mistress once who made me wrestle another sub. It may surprise people, but I seriously hated it. I am extremely non-competitive and very much against fighting with people. In the end the other sub and I worked it out so the contests were boring and Mistress got frustrated at how bad we were and abandoned the whole thing. But maybe that is a thing, sub wrestling contests lol. Maybe. For Entertainment Purposes Only. But if there's wagering involved, you know the Motorcycle Clubs will get the "collections" action, and before you know it there will be spandex-clad superheroes and then where will we be? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 5 minutes ago, CaerolleClaudel said: So Lindens are cheaper on whatever website you can buy them on outside a viewer? It would have to be a fair amount to overcome the convenience for me. Thanks for the tip though! It's the Linden website. The same one you're using right now. https://secondlife.com/my/lindex/buy.php 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaerolleClaudel Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 Just now, Qie Niangao said: Maybe. For Entertainment Purposes Only. But if there's wagering involved, you know the Motorcycle Clubs will get the "collections" action, and before you know it there will be spandex-clad superheroes and then where will we be? Getting WAY OT, but we used to play a LOT of Greedy at the lesbian BDSM sim that I practically lived at once-upon-a-time, and depending on who was playing, stakes were involved (being non-competitive, I rarely played, just watched and cheerled for the people playing, esp those I was crushing on lol…when I did play I really, really sucked). The stakes involved activities rather than money though, lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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