Cristiano Midnight Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 17 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said: I take a stand on issues that are important to me. I think most people do. I do, however, play it safe with my words and try to keep to the topic and ideas instead of the people who posted them. Occasionally a I'll look at a post and think "Nope, not touching that." I fail at that sometimes, but I try. There will always be flamers and instigators that enter threads with the sole intention of riling people up and derailing threads like its some sort of sport to see if they can get a post locked. There are some that post incredibly obvious personal attacks over and over again and nothing happens. There are some who bring RL issues and politics into every thread over and over and nothing happens. There are some who derail threads over and over and nothing happens. It's the same few people over and over. Has me wondering who they know in the inside that lets those posts stand over and over. I like the forum and get a lot of news here about rule changes, updates, new features, issues with viewers, and even some entertainment, but it is difficult to just have a chat about some things. That is the best approach to take. There are people who thrive on negative attention. I just step past their posts and do not reply (and I finally put someone on ignore here for the first time since they are so toxic). On my own sites I am often a target, which I used to take personally but now ignore (or just laugh off). There are productive ways to talk about issues without it having to devolve into a cluster*****. No one is immune to wanting to clapback sometimes, but it is honestly better not to. The immediate satisfaction doesn't justify having to deal with a toxic person, and most have the maturity of "I know you are but what am I?" so it is not worth the effort. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 50 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said: The TOS does not apply outside of SL and these forums. It does not extend to any third party sites, including Discord, Reddit or other forums. If they are disciplined for something outside of what was said in SL or here, then LL is violating their own user agreement. Of course, the whole premise of this thread is selective enforcement of violations, so... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said: Of course, the whole premise of this thread is selective enforcement of violations, so... Yes, the original thread about the topic got locked. I still wonder if there is more to the story there, but it would not surprise me that there is selective enforcement. I was amused that the OP threw another vendor under the bus while making their case. That is SL for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 37 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: I signed up with your forum using my SL name, and picture. Good luck with that! I've lasted much longer here then there when I was posting there but it could be a different dynamic there nowadays. 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said: Good luck with that! I've lasted much longer here then there when I was posting there but it could be a different dynamic there nowadays. 😉 I don't remember your posts - but you are welcome always. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 15 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said: I don't remember your posts - but you are welcome always. Thanks but you graciously closed my account after I requested it. At the time some of the site supporters were begging you to ban me but you refused because you only disagreed with 97% of the things I posted! 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 37 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: Good luck with that! I've lasted much longer here then there when I was posting there but it could be a different dynamic there nowadays. 😉 i see a lot of faces from here in that forum, would probably be the same pileon i experience here 🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 7 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: i see a lot of faces from here in that forum, would probably be the same pileon i experience here 🙄 You'll be fine, just stay out of the Politics and Religion section.....and the climate part. 😏 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codex Alpha Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 (edited) Chicken and egg fallacy when relating to a perceived offense in the past. I see this sort of thing playing out in modern times on many platforms: "I am treating this person badly, because they (allegedly) treated me badly in the past" or "I am disciplining this person more harshly than someone else in the same position because of a past history, whether true or not" The "chicken and egg" fallacy, also known as circular reasoning or begging the question, occurs when the premise of an argument assumes the truth of the conclusion. In the context of perceived offenses and validating abuse, this fallacy manifests as a self-perpetuating cycle of harm. When someone perceives an offense, they may react with abusive or harmful behavior towards the perceived offender. This abusive reaction then becomes justification for the perceived offender to view the initial person as abusive, validating further retaliation or abuse in response. The cycle continues, with each party using the other's behavior as a premise to conclude that their own abusive actions are warranted. However, this reasoning is fallacious because it assumes the very conclusion it aims to prove - that abuse is justified based on the other person's perceived offensiveness or abusive behavior. It creates a vicious circle where harm begets harm, without a clear starting point or logical basis for the initial offense. To break this cycle, both parties must recognize that perceived offenses or past abusive actions do not inherently justify further abuse. Each person's behavior should be evaluated independently, without using the other's conduct as a premise for retaliation. Resolving conflicts through open communication, empathy, and a commitment to non-violence is crucial to prevent the perpetuation of harm. The fallacy lies in using the other person's perceived offenses or harmful actions as a premise to conclude that one's own harmful behavior is justified. ------------ In relation to these forums, many of the back and forths seem to rely on this premise to justify how they post or react to another here.. Want to improve these forums and your experience here? Let it go. Edited June 15 by Codex Alpha 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 50 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: Thanks but you graciously closed my account after I requested it. At the time some of the site supporters were begging you to ban me but you refused because you only disagreed with 97% of the things I posted! Well I still would rather have some contrary voices to avoid the echo chamber. If you ever want to return, please let me know. I would love to have you. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolig Loon Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 1 hour ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said: There will always be flamers and instigators that enter threads with the sole intention of riling people up and derailing threads like its some sort of sport to see if they can get a post locked. There are some that post incredibly obvious personal attacks over and over again and nothing happens. There are some who bring RL issues and politics into every thread over and over and nothing happens. There are some who derail threads over and over and nothing happens. It's the same few people over and over. Has me wondering who they know in the inside that lets those posts stand over and over. As I think about some of the posters who annoy me the most, there are a few who seem to be able to get away with almost anything. Most of them, though, are very clever about avoiding direct personal attacks. They use sarcasm like a knife, daring anyone else to snap back (and then get themselves whacked by a moderator), or they set up a straw man argument that baits other people into starting an argument that derails the thread. Or they find a logical error in a post and respond with a "know it all" haughtiness that rubs everyone the wrong way and starts a pile-on. There are lots of variations on the theme, but the successful instigators all know how to stir the pot just enough to get other people to do the stupid things that kill a thread or get themselves warnings. I remember those people from grade school. They learned how to trigger others to start a fight so they could rat to the teacher. They were just smart enough to skate up the the edge of trouble and back off before throwing the punch or saying the slur that would get them a time out. They got even more practice in middle school and beyond. Now they've brought their talents to the forums, where we all fall for the tricks. Teachers and moderators hate those guys, but they can have a hard time figuring out exactly which rule they broke. Worst of all, they can't decide whether they want to nail them because they did something wrong or because they just got under their skin. It's really hard to defend punishing someone who did nothing more than annoy the hell out of you. Instead, you punish the suckers who make the obvious mistakes. So, the smart, successful instigators get away with things all the time and it looks like they must know some fixer on the inside who lets them skate. 8 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Nightingale Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said: To break this cycle, both parties must recognize that perceived offenses or past abusive actions do not inherently justify further abuse. I'm going to strongly disagree with part of that - the part I've emboldened in the quote. My scum neighbours are masters of what you are talking about. They've been doing it for fifteen years to me and my wife, up to calling the police on me and making false accusations, malicious lies to the other neighbours, and so on. Basically, everything they do to us, they claim we have done to them and they are just reacting to that. I think they (or she, at least, he just goes along because he's that sort) actually believes it; she's said things about us so often she's convinced herself they are true. It's outright bull; they are just twisted, nasty pieces of dirt that decided one day to take a dislike to us. (We have theories why, a police officer gave us probably the most likely one, but those aren't relevant and we did absolutely nothing wrong to them.) We have never done anything wrong to those people, and all we have done is what was made necessary by them to defend ourselves: not allow ourselves to be bullied in all sorts of pathetic ways, have things stolen off us and our property repeatedly damaged. There is no 'both parties' in it and never has been. It doesn't always take two. It only needs one. Yet we always here things like "no smoke without fire" and "it takes two to tango". Outright nonsense used to vindicate bad behaviour in society rather than actually tackle the scum. Edited June 15 by Rick Nightingale 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 23 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said: As I think about some of the posters who annoy me the most, there are a few who seem to be able to get away with almost anything. Most of them, though, are very clever about avoiding direct personal attacks. They use sarcasm like a knife, daring anyone else to snap back (and then get themselves whacked by a moderator), or they set up a straw man argument that baits other people into starting an argument that derails the thread. Or they find a logical error in a post and respond with a "know it all" haughtiness that rubs everyone the wrong way and starts a pile-on. There are lots of variations on the theme, but the successful instigators all know how to stir the pot just enough to get other people to do the stupid things that kill a thread or get themselves warnings. I remember those people from grade school. They learned how to trigger others to start a fight so they could rat to the teacher. They were just smart enough to skate up the the edge of trouble and back off before throwing the punch or saying the slur that would get them a time out. They got even more practice in middle school and beyond. Now they've brought their talents to the forums, where we all fall for the tricks. Teachers and moderators hate those guys, but they can have a hard time figuring out exactly which rule they broke. Worst of all, they can't decide whether they want to nail them because they did something wrong or because they just got under their skin. It's really hard to defend punishing someone who did nothing more than annoy the hell out of you. Instead, you punish the suckers who make the obvious mistakes. So, the smart, successful instigators get away with things all the time and it looks like they must know some fixer on the inside who lets them skate. Anyone who moderates a forum can see those types of people from a mile away. It can be tricky sometimes to not be too heavy handed, but to not let them ***** stir. There is also an art to being able to tell someone to go ***** themselves without them realizing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 24 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said: Or they find a logical error in a post and respond with a "know it all" haughtiness that rubs everyone the wrong way and starts a pile-on. I find doing this can help combat the guys who do the OTHER things you listed! Does that make me bad? Hope not! 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codex Alpha Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 12 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said: Anyone who moderates a forum can see those types of people from a mile away. It can be tricky sometimes to not be too heavy handed, but to not let them ***** stir. There is also an art to being able to tell someone to go ***** themselves without them realizing it. Why would this even be necessary on these forums or anywhere else? Some of us just want to discuss issues. So what, people disagree. But where is it and why is it turning into a personal thing or a feeling that someone has to play these games? Chicken or egg? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovestofu Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 (edited) Forums are antithetical to Second Life. If Second Life is the premier virtual world experience, then Second Life is supposed to be where you meet people, not on 2000s style forums. Instead, there should be forums in world, ideally styled as public squares, where general discussion topics are the focus. This would be an immersive in-world offering that would further differentiate Second Life from generic internet communication platforms (Discord, Twitter, etc). As long as Second Life does not offer in-world forums and instead keeps these text based ones, it shows that their value proposition is not all they claim. Their continued hosting and support for the forums is, in my view, a signal that degrades their brand. Forums are also a direct competitor to Second Life as a entertainment platform. Forum users post memes and share jokes and media here to entertain what seems to be a small circle of friends. It makes little sense that Linden Lab would be hosting a forum to entertain people to the detriment of Second Life. Such users can log in to Second Life to socialize instead, and so could the Moles and company Employees. When this is not the case, it suggests that the company is not dogfooding its product and that the company is on autopilot. Worst yet, it signals that the company is struggling with user engagement metrics and needs as much SEO as it can get, to the peril of any contributor to these forums, whose words and ideas will continue to be scraped to train AI models with no consideration to any forum poster. Therefore, the existence of the forums cannot be good for either Linden Lab or its users. Edited June 15 by lovestofu 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 1 minute ago, Codex Alpha said: Why would this even be necessary on these forums or anywhere else? Some of us just want to discuss issues. So what, people disagree. But where is it and why is it turning into a personal thing or a feeling that someone has to play these games? Chicken or egg? It is human nature sadly. Anonymity online makes it much worse. When you do see it, it does become necessary to put a stop to it for the health of a community. I have had to ban people, which I don't like to do, but it was what was needed to be done. Certain people can suck all of the oxygen out of a place if you let them. In response to bans, I have had my life threatened violently and also told that they hoped I got cancer, AIDS, and hit by a bus (they were quite thorough in wishing my demise for banning them). People be crazy. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codex Alpha Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 5 minutes ago, lovestofu said: Forums are antithetical to Second Life. If Second Life is the premier virtual world experience, then Second Life is supposed to be where you meet people, not on 2000s style forums. Instead, there should be forums in world, ideally styled as public squares, where general discussion topics are the focus. This would be an immersive in-world offering that would further differentiate Second Life from generic internet communication platforms (Discord, Twitter, etc). As long as Second Life does not offer in-world forums and instead keeps these text based ones, it shows that their value proposition is not all they claim. Their continued hosting and support for the forums is, in my view, a signal that degrades their brand. Forums are also a direct competitor to Second Life as a entertainment platform. Forum users post memes and share jokes and media here to entertain what seems to be a small circle of friends. It makes little sense that Linden Lab would be hosting a forum to entertain people to the detriment of Second Life. Such users can log in to Second Life to socialize instead, and so could the Moles and company Employees. When this is not the case, it suggests that the company is not dogfooding its product and that the company is on autopilot. Worst yet, it signals that the company is struggling with user engagement metrics and needs as much SEO as it can get, to the peril of any contributor to these forums, whose words and ideas will continue to be scraped to train AI models with no consideration to any forum poster. Therefore, the existence of the forums cannot be good for either Linden Lab or its users. Yep, even at the least, people are spending their energies chatting, showcasing, showboating, debating, discussing on the forums or in Discord - and so no need to go into SL - that which most of us did earlier in it's existence. SL isn't the only platform suffering this - this can happen anywhere where people did not have options. Discord is big though on this front, almost all chat can be found there now - while a platform inworld is vacant... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 Just now, Codex Alpha said: Yep, even at the least, people are spending their energies chatting, showcasing, showboating, debating, discussing on the forums or in Discord - and so no need to go into SL - that which most of us did earlier in it's existence. SL isn't the only platform suffering this - this can happen anywhere where people did not have options. Discord is big though on this front, almost all chat can be found there now - while a platform inworld is vacant... A significant portion of my users no longer use SL or rarely sign in. Hell, I was out of SL for 10 years after the experiences with crazy people escalated to a dangerous RL situation for me. Groups moved to Discord because of how unstable the group chat is in SL. Also, the communication tools in general are terrible for a social platform. Plus people use forums when they can't log in to still be able to connect and discuss. I think they add to the experience, not detract from them, whether it is forums, Discord, Reddit, etc.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovestofu Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 Just now, Cristiano Midnight said: A significant portion of my users no longer use SL or rarely sign in. Hell, I was out of SL for 10 years after the experiences with crazy people escalated to a dangerous RL situation for me. Groups moved to Discord because of how unstable the group chat is in SL. Also, the communication tools in general are terrible for a social platform. Plus people use forums when they can't log in to still be able to connect and discuss. I think they add to the experience, not detract from them, whether it is forums, Discord, Reddit, etc.. You are a forum host yourself, and you hardly log into Second Life either. If anything you demonstrate exactly the issue with forums. They siphon away engagement, your experiences are nothing but examples of this. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 5 minutes ago, lovestofu said: You are a forum host yourself, and you hardly log into Second Life either. If anything you demonstrate exactly the issue with forums. They siphon away engagement, your experiences are nothing but examples of this. I log into SL daily, and use it more now than I ever have. Not sure why you think that. My not posting a lot here doesn't mean I am not involved in SL. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovestofu Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 (edited) Just now, Cristiano Midnight said: I log into SL daily, and use it more now than I ever have. Not sure why you think that. My not posting a lot here doesn't mean I am not involved in SL. I had misread your post about your absence from SL. Disregard my previous claim. My point still stands. Forums do keep people connected to SL while they are away, but for the most part they are a detriment when they become the focus themselves. Second Life itself is perfectly capable of hosting general discussions and should be encouraged, not watered down. Edited June 15 by lovestofu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starberry Passion Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 7 hours ago, sirhc DeSantis said: Fascinating. Hence a Modest Proposal Given that the General Section of the Forum Does Not Reflect the Population of Second Life a) posting to the General Section should be limited to those logged in World. b) Once established the Company should Henceforth provide a Sim or Region dedicated to the Usual Denizens as said General Section c) Profit (cue Gnomes) It is true that the forums do not reflects a lot of the population of Second Life, inworld. I think this is why the Lindens are able to make some of the decisions they made, that ticked off some of the people inside of the forum. I feel like they do the same thing I do, instead of going by personal feelings and opinions, they look at it as if they were someone else, in someone else's shoes and try to make a judgement based off of that. Like I look at things from others perspective and not just my own. Why do people want to come online and make this avatar or look, aesthetic? Maybe they want to feel girly, feel cute, look like a princess. Maybe they had a bad upbringing, so they want to experience what it's like to have a good family. Why is this person tall? Must be because they were either picked on or they like really tall people. Some people, for example, hate the anime community but in Second life, anime community is not as small as people think and people like it, they see people liking it. The small group, in the forums, are like "Shut them down." Second life is like "No... the community is just fine and we know about them. They're not hurting anyone. Same with Furries. Some people hate furries, but inworld there are far more furries than furry haters on the forum. There are far more Kawaii community than kawaii haters on the forum. I don't think the Lindens look at the forums as an end all to be all, but a way to just give opinion and talk about some small things that go on in Second life. It might not feel like it, but I think Lindens are far more active inworld than people give them credit for. Look at Kiera for example, she came to the meeting in kawaii fashion, comfortable hot pink girly outfit, hear done up in twin puffs, she came in cute and some people were like "Are you going to get ride of the kawaii aesthetic, what about BBG?" I don't think Kiera is a BBG but I high no doubt she already know about it, she's probably seen several people say it already and yet people still see her dressed, sitting there asking her if these things are banned. She came there a girly girl in an adult avatar. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 14 minutes ago, lovestofu said: I had misread your post about your absence from SL. Disregard my previous claim. My point still stands. Forums do keep people connected to SL while they are away, but for the most part they are a detriment when they become the focus themselves. Second Life itself is perfectly capable of hosting general discussions and should be encouraged, not watered down. SL does not handle groups well - it is not a great communication platform. Hell, we still have to use repeaters for chat to cover beyond a certain area. That is part of the issue. I would love to see big discussions inS L, and there are community groups hosted by LL to discuss issues. I don't see forums as detracting from that. They are a different medium from realtime communication. It is much more asynchronous, and hopefully, some thought is put into what you are saying before you hit submit. The reality is that is not always the case and people vomit out a stream of consciousness and venom, but for the most part, forums do have value as a communication platform. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 (edited) 2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said: You'll be fine, just stay out of the Politics and Religion section.....and the climate part. 😏 If its left leaning, i’ll be a lone voice crying in the wilderness Edited June 15 by BilliJo Aldrin changed a word 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebook
Instagram
Twitter
YouTube
Flickr
Recommended Posts