Mainstream failure of SL & Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

[Sammy Huntsman]

29 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

We're past subtly nudging the needle to create a broad platform for all types. It doesn't work.

If we can get just one demographic to show up and keep showing up we win, we have to start somewhere and that somewhere will favor one group more than another.

And how would you achieve this? Who would you bring in? But even then people are giving ideas and you are turning them down, like cmon. We don't just need one demographic in SL, we need to be able to cater to many demographics. So please enlighten us,  which demographic would you bring in? 

[Coffee Pancake]

24 minutes ago, MissSweetViolet said:

But I don't think it's as simple as just take one suggestion, it is a diverse base, it needs a diverse approach.

We have to start somewhere.

Say we picked "SL is a great place for adults with physical difficulty, disability or mental health issues to meet, socialize and enjoy a personally rewarding experience with other adults" .. which is objectively true and a huge use case for the platform.

There would be screaming that we're leaning in on SL being for broken people who can't get any IRL. Debates about disability and sex. Worry's that we're turning people away by favoring a specific group. .. Even though SL is world changing for people with disability, especially when it comes to expressing adult interests.

Here come the rebuttals .. well of course we should make efforts to attract that demographic, but do we need to mention sex? No one does that, least of all "the disabled".

24 minutes ago, MissSweetViolet said:

I don't recall you giving any ideas on what LL should implement (and you may correct if I have missed or forgotten anything).

I have a few proposal threads here going back years. No one here wants to do anything, or have anything happen that might impact them at all .. even if it wouldn't.

There is an incorrect perception that welcoming one demographic pushes out another, and that is not the case at all. 

There is also the incorrect perception that "build and they will come" is some how true, as though more art or a better 'thing' will attract sufficient people. It wont. No one cares.

You know who do care?

All the disabled people who come here to play out BDSM sex fantasies.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Coffee Pancake

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

We have to start somewhere.

Say we picked "SL is a great place for adults with physical difficulty, disability or mental health issues to meet, socialize and enjoy a personally rewarding experience with other adults" .. which is objectively true and a huge use case for the platform.

There would be screaming that we're leaning in on SL being for broken people who can't get any IRL. Debates about disability and sex. Worry's that we're turning people away by favoring a specific group. .. Even though SL is world changing for people with disability, especially when it comes to expressing adult interests.

Here come the rebuttals .. well of course we should make efforts to attract that demographic, but do we need to mention sex? No one does that, least of all "the disabled".

I have a few proposal threads here going back years. No one here wants to do anything, or have anything happen that might impact them at all .. even if it wouldn't.

There is an incorrect perception that welcoming one demographic pushes out another, and that is not the case at all. 

There is also the incorrect perception that "build and they will come" is some how true, as though more art or a better 'thing' will attract sufficient people. It wont. No one cares.

You know who do care?

All the disabled people who come here to play out BDSM sex fantasies.

 

 

So you just want the people who are into BDSM fantasies and for LL to advertise for just them? Again, there is more than just in SL so to advertise for just one, may give people the wrong idea what SL is for. If we take the diverse approach and say its for everyone, no matter who or what you are. That would be the better approach. It's less Gatekeepy, if you know what I mean. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

And please for the love of god, stop saying you are trying to help LL to make SL better. You just want to make this an adult sex platform. This whole trying to help LL thing is just a ruse, and it has ulterior motives. 

[Coffee Pancake]

  

Just now, Sammy Huntsman said:

So you just want the people who are into BDSM fantasies and for LL to advertise for just them? Again, there is more than just in SL so to advertise for just one, may give people the wrong idea what SL is for. If we take the diverse approach and say its for everyone, no matter who or what you are. That would be the better approach. It's less Gatekeepy, if you know what I mean. 

Thank you for proving my point so quickly and so exactly.

It will probably horrify you to know that BDSM has been a core part of this platforms social construct right back it earliest days.

Back when people couldn't just roll infinite disposable 'after dark' alts because it cost money, people had to be subtle. Most everyone was owned by someone if you knew were to look, or read between the lines, or highlight transparent to see all the hidden collars.

Why? (omg why!?) .. because BDSM provided an increased level of personal connection, it raised and expanded the emotional bandwidth a little, it was also thrilling and fun.

But most of all .. it allowed people to feel belonging and connection to another person.

Guess which demographic doesn't have a lot of that in their life.

 

I could post a picture, perhaps some kind of pyramid with basic needs .. but honestly, it would just be something else to pick apart rather than address the actual points.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

Thank you for proving my point so quickly and so exactly.

It will probably horrify you to know that BDSM has been a core part of this platforms social construct right back it earliest days.

Back when people couldn't just roll infinite disposable 'after dark' alts because it cost money, people had to be subtle. Most everyone was owned by someone if you knew were to look, or read between the lines, or highlight transparent to see all the hidden collars.

Why? (omg why!?) .. because BDSM provided an increased level of personal connection, it raised and expanded the emotional bandwidth a little, it was also thrilling and fun.

But most of all .. it allowed people to feel belonging and connection to another person.

Guess which demographic doesn't have a lot of that in their life.

But here is the thing, I don't mind that whole aspect. I am just saying, that SL just doesn't have to be about BDSM sex. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Sammy Huntsman said:

But here is the thing, I don't mind that whole aspect. I am just saying, that SL just doesn't have to be about BDSM sex. 

Nor should a diverse platform such as SL be reduced down to only to a BDSM Sex Platform. 

[Gabriele Graves]

29 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

We have to start somewhere.

Say we picked "SL is a great place for adults with physical difficulty, disability or mental health issues to meet, socialize and enjoy a personally rewarding experience with other adults" .. which is objectively true and a huge use case for the platform.

There would be screaming that we're leaning in on SL being for broken people who can't get any IRL. Debates about disability and sex. Worry's that we're turning people away by favoring a specific group. .. Even though SL is world changing for people with disability, especially when it comes to expressing adult interests.

Here come the rebuttals .. well of course we should make efforts to attract that demographic, but do we need to mention sex? No one does that, least of all "the disabled".

I have a few proposal threads here going back years. No one here wants to do anything, or have anything happen that might impact them at all .. even if it wouldn't.

There is an incorrect perception that welcoming one demographic pushes out another, and that is not the case at all. 

There is also the incorrect perception that "build and they will come" is some how true, as though more art or a better 'thing' will attract sufficient people. It wont. No one cares.

You know who do care?

All the disabled people who come here to play out BDSM sex fantasies.

 

 

I thought the problem was one of retention and not bringing them to SL in the first place?

In one place in this topic it's declared that the problem isn't sign-ups that's the issue, it's the retention and then in another place in this topic the issue shifts to a kind of "if people just knew we were we would have more people here so we should advertise to that demographic".

If plenty of people are trying out SL even today then advertising isn't the problem.  What is the problem?

If some people coming are already coming to live out their BDSM sex fantasies and it's a huge market, what is stopping the others who abandon it if that is also why they come - to live those same fantasies?

Not enough BDSM in the new user experience?
Presumably not a lack of gaming facilities.

These constantly shifting goal posts and rambling all over the place only serves to show me that nobody really knows what the problem is with any certainty.  Not me, not any one else here and especially not the original poster of this topic.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Gabriele Graves
corrections

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I thought the problem was one of retention and not bringing them to SL in the first place?

In one place in this topic it's declared the problem isn't sign-ups that's the issue, it's the retention and then in another place in this topic the issue shifts to a kind of "if people just knew we were we would have more people here so we should advertise to that demographic".

If plenty of people are trying out SL even today then advertising isn't the problem.  What is the problem?

If some people coming are already coming to live out their BDSM sex fantasies and it's a huge market, what is stopping the others who abandon it if that is also why they come - to live those same fantasies?

Not enough BDSM in the new user experience?
Presumably not a lack of gaming facilities.

These constantly shifting goal posts and rambling all over the place only serves to show me that nobody really knows what the problem is with any certainly.  Not me, not any one else here and especially not the original poster of this topic.

Basically it's an attempt to turn SL from a very diverse platform, to a platform who only serves a certain demographic. So the OP has effectively created a post, that is an echo chamber. Where she just wants to hear everyone agree with her. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

11 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Basically it's an attempt to turn SL from a very diverse platform, to a platform who only serves a certain demographic. So the OP has effectively created a post, that is an echo chamber. Where she just wants to hear everyone agree with her. 

That is the message I keep getting and why I walked away from talking to a brick wall that constantly moves the goalposts.

[Arielle Popstar]

14 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Basically it's an attempt to turn SL from a very diverse platform, to a platform who only serves a certain demographic. So the OP has effectively created a post, that is an echo chamber. Where she just wants to hear everyone agree with her. 

Meh, it really isn't that diverse. At the end of the day there is a fairly narrow range of interests that will keep residents coming back for decades. What this thread seems to have attracted is some outliers from a typical bell curve convinced their interest is much more common then it really is.

[Luna Bliss]

21 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Why? (omg why!?) .. because BDSM provided an increased level of personal connection, it raised and expanded the emotional bandwidth a little, it was also thrilling and fun.

But most of all .. it allowed people to feel belonging and connection to another person.

BDSM provides structure, much like a game. It's game-afying what should be a spontaneous and freely evolving experience between two people. Sorry, but I hate it. I would never advocate taking it away from people that want or need it as all should be free to enjoy their sexual life in the way they choose, but let's not revere it as you seem to be doing.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

Meh, it really isn't that diverse. At the end of the day there is a fairly narrow range of interests that will keep residents coming back for decades. What this thread seems to have attracted is some outliers from a typical bell curve convinced their interest is much more common then it really is.

I mean yeah, I get that. But the I see these posts as more of a way to get people to support her idea of making SL just one big platform all about BDSM sex. That being said, my ultimate point was. LL made it for people to do what they want, and have a diverse amount of things to do

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

BDSM provides structure, much like a game. It's game-afying what should be a spontaneous and freely evolving experience between two people. Sorry, but I hate it. I would never advocate taking it away from people that want or need it as all should be free to enjoy their sexual life in the way they choose, but let's not revere it as you seem to be doing.

I rarely say this to you, but it's actually good to have another voice of reason ♥

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I thought the problem was one of retention and not bringing them to SL in the first place?

We have a catastrophic retention problem. 

"Why am I here?" "What is there to do?" 

In order to answer that question we must pick some messages, 

You are here for the art / sex / boating / prims / music / friends / ........ only they can't know what most of the things on that list means. What's a prim and why would they care .. who know! but my magic 8 ball says that in a month, that's what you will want.

Answering .. "you can do anything here, it's so diverse" .. is like a restaurant with no menu and a Chef who can make anything. Practical considerations aside, there is a reason restaurants have limited and heavily themed menus, even if they have a chef who will sneak in a cheese burger if you ask nicely.

People leave because they don't get it. They haven't been exposed to the hook that gets their attention. Their base needs are not met.

 

As a mentor (from the start), my honest experiences ... the big hooks are

Friends - If someone already has a friend in SL when they first join, high chance they will stay. That friendship is enough to get most to endure all the garbage SL can throw at them.

Friends2 - If someone makes a friend in their first or second session, see Friends. Lower chance of success, but it can get someone back a second or third time.

Sex - Most people have an itch to scratch fairly regularly. If this mess helps .. great! They will likely find all the other stuff and friends and prims, no worries.

Money - Less of a thing now, but back in the day people heard they could make bank in SL. I was rarely true then, less so now.

Lurr - Oh wow, this place, wow, it's amazing, my hands .. they can touch everything but themselves .. 

 

That's pretty much it. Some people would come for the fashion or because they had seen pictures or something or roleplay .. and if you pushed a little, the base need tended to resolve back into friends and sex. Lurr would rarely get off help island, but he would stay for weeks!

 

1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

If plenty of people are trying out SL even today then advertising isn't the problem.  What is the problem?

If some people coming are already coming to live out their BDSM sex fantasies and it's a huge market, what is stopping the others who abandon it if that is also why they come - to live those same fantasies?

LL don't advertise anymore. The issue is the tiny window that exists between making an account and leaving forever disappointed.

Newbie : I am here for one thing and I have no idea what it is, you may make two guesses before I leave.

SL : So .. sex and friends it is !!

Newbie 3 weeks later : I love prims. omg. who knew .. prims ❤️ .. also this is my wife.

 

People are allowed to like other things.

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

We have a catastrophic retention problem. 

"Why am I here?" "What is there to do?" 

In order to answer that question we must pick some messages, 

So yes, let's make SL a platform that is all about BDSM and sex, that is sure to bring in more people. 

[SabrinaCooke]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

People are allowed to like other things.

Yes, they are. So why do you keep insisting that people are only here for sex? 

[Coffee Pancake]

9 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

BDSM provides structure, much like a game. It's game-afying what should be a spontaneous and freely evolving experience between two people. Sorry, but I hate it. I would never advocate taking it away from people that want or need it as all should be free to enjoy their sexual life in the way they choose, but let's not revere it as you seem to be doing.

Sorry I ruined BDSM for you ❤️

[Sammy Huntsman]

3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

As a mentor (from the start), my honest experiences ... the big hooks are

Friends - If someone already has a friend in SL when they first join, high chance they will stay. That friendship is enough to get most to endure all the garbage SL can throw at them.

Friends2 - If someone makes a friend in their first or second session, see Friends. Lower chance of success, but it can get someone back a second or third time.

Sex - Most people have an itch to scratch fairly regularly. If this mess helps .. great! They will likely find all the other stuff and friends and prims, no worries.

Money - Less of a thing now, but back in the day people heard they could make bank in SL. I was rarely true then, less so now.

Lurr - Oh wow, this place, wow, it's amazing, my hands .. they can touch everything but themselves .. 

That is subjective, not everyone that is new comes for that. They come for a whole bunch of other things. 

[Gabriele Graves]

They are just cherry picking very selective bits and either reiterating possibly flawed rhetoric without any further evidence or posting a wall of text that doesn't address anything.

I declare this topic well and truly done.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, SabrinaCooke said:

Yes, they are. So why do you keep insisting that people are only here for sex? 

I'm not, but sex (!) is a big hook that gets people in the door and keeps them focused. 

SL is really hard, and really low in rewards early on.

I've been at this over 17 years now. Everyone I have ever known here (save about 3 people) kept coming back for the sex (or the promise of sex) and happen to find something they enjoy more .. like building or scripting or running a shop or clubbing.

It's also an easy sell. What can I do in SL? You can work in a club! .. oh .. um .. well that's actually prostitution most of the time, so bad example 😂 (from the Lindens own published book on Second Life from way back when .. yes I own that too).

Its very fair to say sex (or the promise of sex) keeps the lights on, and has always kept the lights on. Even after people decide it's not for them and they get into _________. 

 

[Sammy Huntsman]

On 6/29/2023 at 8:23 AM, Caeruleiae said:

BeYou would be the last system I would recommend ll take on-though some sort of system similar would indeed contribute to solving most of the issues people have presented here in this thread and others about what to do in sl and how to give more people that something to do.

If ll ever did choose to add something like this-I wouldn't recommend any of the existing systems be used as a base-for all kinds of reasons no one wants to read. But ll could pretty easily have their own similar system that people can use. They don't have to use it but they can choose to if they want to. Even better if ll decided to make it some type of free hud system that exists in the library-with various places inworld that work along with the system. The ground work for those kinds of things has already been put into place by creators-so we know it's possible. Making sure residents don't have to pay for it and have to choose to use it will help to remove possible retention issues surrounding it

But it's likely just another project ll will say soon to and never finish.  I don't think ll need more on their plate they don't intend to finish anytime soon. 

I mean how many people come to SL to do the basic necessities of life, Eat Sleep, bathroom shower. This idea is kinda farfetched. If I wanted to play a survival game, I would just play the dozens I already have. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I'm not, but sex (!) is a big hook that gets people in the door and keeps them focused. 

SL is really hard, and really low in rewards early on.

You are though. That is the thing. You basically said screw diversity, let's just serve one demographic and well the other demographics don't matter. 

[Coffee Pancake]

5 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I declare this topic well and truly done.

Again? I'm glad we appointed you to decide when threads are finished .. Will you keep posting even if its not .. I hope so !

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

You are though. That is the thing. You basically said screw diversity, let's just serve one demographic and well the other demographics don't matter. 

Which demographics are those Sammy .. 

Come on .. pick one and lets explore that.