"I'll report you!"

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Well, unless one is going to be accused of sexual age play or being underage, the threat of a false AR should hardly bother one very much.  Even in the former instances, LL does investigate before acting on ARs, and there is really very little to fear (most of the time) unless one has said or done something stupid or ill-considered. And one CAN get nailed for filing false ARs.  Someone who gratuituously threatens to file an AR is likely to be stupid, annoying, and drama-prone, but he or she doesn't constitute a real threat, nor need it reflect poorly on the system itself, which the vast majority of the time is capable of sorting out the legitimate from the specious.

As for the protests -- I am fairly active in feminist groups in-world.  One of our mandates is to both critique and generate discussion about depictions of violence against women in Second Life;  accordingly, about a year and a half ago (and as part of the international "16 Days against Gender Violence"), we held a protest -- really, a kind of information picket -- at the rape sim Hard Alley.  We had, at various times over the course of about an hour there, between 30 to 40 participants, I think.  It was a very interesting, and ultimately worthwhile endeavour.  We weren't there to "grief" (we have a pretty rigorous written code of conduct for protesters): we basically carried signs, shouted slogans, and engaged in discussion and/or debate with anyone there willing to do so.  So far as I know, no ARs were filed against any of us, and although we were eventually ejected, we weren't permanently banned. (In fact, the sim owner has invited me back.)  Particularly gratifying was the fact that a few of the people we engaged with at the sim actually followed us when we left, and continued discussions on our own sim.  It was all very civilized, really . . .

http://alphavilleherald.com/2009/11/hard-alley-protestors-issue-press-release.html

http://alphavilleherald.com/2009/11/a-view-from-the-back-the-hard-alley-protest.html

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Actually, now I think about it  . . . when the JLU wiki was hacked and published a year or so ago, it was revealed that they had had some discussion over whether I was or was not a "griefer" for leading that protest. Their conclusion, as I recall, was that what we had done was "technically" griefing (although I'm not clear what we did that could be said to violate the ToS), but that it was "well-intentioned" and not worth pursuing.

[Storm Clarence]

---

Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

  We weren't there to "grief"

(we have a pretty rigorous written code of conduct for protesters): we basically carried signs, shouted slogans, and engaged in discussion and/or debate with anyone there willing to do so.  So far as I know, no ARs were filed against any of us, and although we were eventually ejected, we weren't permanently banned. (In fact, the sim owner has invited me back.)  Particularly gratifying was the fact that a few of the people we engaged with at the sim actually followed us when we left, and continued discussions on our own sim.  It was all very civilized, really . . .

 

---

 

Let me preface my question with: I do not support 'rape' sims.  I don't visit places with this type of sexual conduct.

That being said, Isn't a protest 'griefing' whether that be with information pickets or sparkling objects painting the sim?

If the sim is not breaking the ToS is it not 'their' business? 

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I suppose that rather depends on how one defines "griefing."  We did not harrass individuals there; the only ones we engaged at all with, in fact, were those who chose to address us, and our engagement was limited to public chat (which has been published somewhere or another, btw).  We didn't interfere in any way with the operations of the sim; in fact, as the owner told me, we added to their traffic numbers.

And that's fine: we weren't there to shut the place down.  We were there to ask questions.

The point, I guess, is that we didn't break the ToS ourselves. In such cases, a sim owner has the option of applying his own sanctions, through ejections and bans.  And that is exactly what happened -- after close to an hour of us being there. The owner didn't feel strongly enough to keep those bans in place -- I've been back many times since, and was, as I said, even invited by the owner to return.  And, if I recall somewhere -- maybe even in the comments to one of those two articles -- he refused to classify it as a "griefing" himself.

So, is it "griefing" merely if you are doing something the sim owner doesn't like?  Maybe, or maybe not. But, even if it's not against the ToS, the sim owner has tools in place to deal with it.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Incidentally, Griffin . . . I think we may gain some insight into Love's dislike of the ToS and ARIng from some of the groups listed in his public profile. I direct your attention to the first of his listed groups in particular.

https://my.secondlife.com/love.leonoase/groups

(Please note that this is material that is available on the web, through SL's own web site, to anyone with a SL account.  I am not "disclosing" any information that Love has not himself chosen to leave publicly visible, or that LL has not chosen to leave available and visible on the web.)

 

ETA:  Oh yes, and definitely NSFW.  I might suggest you have a barf bag available as well.

[Void Singer]

---

Darrius Gothly wrote:

Ummm .. well ... yeah, there is a point to threatening. Sometimes folks get a little heated and forget themselves. They start doing and saying things that are ToS violations and could get them in a lot of trouble .. if reported. By granting them the courtesy of a threat, you offer them the chance to self-correct.

If they refuse to accept the courtesy, then yeah file an AR and let the Lindens sort it out. But a properly couched and well stated threat does indeed have a useful purpose.

---

 but a threat isn't a reminder, it's just an invitation to escalation... which is what usually happens when you threaten someone online... and the additional drama isn't worth it unless the person is a dramawhore. it's the difference between "one of these people might use a gun on you" and "I'm pointing MY gun at you"... the latter never goes well online.

[Darrius Gothly]

Hmm .. maybe I'm just incredibly intimidating then. Or I have a different definition of "threat". In either case, I do see your distinction.

Now .. do something bad and I'll show you how I threaten. *grin*

 

PS: I gotta tell this story, cuz it's a funny internet threat story. I had warned a guy that was stalking and harassing women on a video chat site to stop or I would do my best to remove him from the 'Net. His response was to send me a still picture (it was a vidchat that used stills and accompanying text) of his pistol aimed right at his webcam. Knowing that he lived in the Netherlands and I lived in the USA .. my response to him was rather short and to the point:

"Please DO shoot your own webcam .. you idiot!"

PPS: Yes, he backed off.

[Mayalily]

Good job, Scylla!  I very much admire you for standing up for what is right and what is wrong, and how you handled it. 

Back to address the OP:  I too am wondering what he was going to be reported for?  That's a blank?

Also, if it is a big deal, the AR report should be done in private without anyone knowing.  If it's a griefer, contact the sim owner, too... etc. 

Back to address Scylla again:  I can't understand why they allow rape sims in the TOS.  That's quite baffling to me in the first place and kind of coconuts imo. 

[Void Singer]

I laughed =)

it always amuses me that people get so worked up, or let others get them worked up.... we're all sitting at our own computers, and it's really easy to remove people that are wasting your time from you view, whether it's banning and muting, or just clicking through to a different place. we all have the godlike power to edit our virtual existance, and so few people bother to use that power.... you'd almost think they wanted to be harassed or annoyed.

[Void Singer]

---

Mayalily wrote:

[...] I can't understand why they allow rape sims in the TOS.  That's quite baffling to me in the first place and kind of coconuts imo.

---

 I don't get why people are into it either, but it's allowed because it's really just a ridiculous misuse of the word... look up "Rape Fantasy" and you'll see what I mean.... and why it fuels so mush idiotic macho behavior... If ever something something needed the labels self-contradictory and self-defeating, that's one that should filed near the top.

[Mayalily]

I always thought they had gun control in Netherlands?  I find that a bizarre story actually.   Internet webcams, that just sounds bizarre to me.  Sorry, off topic. 

[Mayalily]

As a person who's been raped in rl, I can't even understand why someone would want a "rape fantasy" at all?  They needs a psychiatrist.  Scary!!!

ETA:  They need some jails on those rape sims, and put the rapists in the jail cells and leave them in there for good!  That would teach 'em what's gonna happen to them in rl! 

[Griffin Ceawlin]

@Rabid: You say the OP has made it clear that it's not always a case of engaging in activities that some might find objectionable. I agree that it's not. But has the OP made it clear that his particular complaint is not a case of engaging in activities that some might find objectionable?

True, he's under no obligation whatsoever to answer the questions put to him, but he's the one who raised this topic. His refusal to answer them just might make one think that perhaps the someone threatening him with an AR had a very valid reason to do so. I think that their only mistake was probably making the threat instead of just doing it, without advising him of their intent.

@Scylla: Yes, his whole profile paints quite the picture.

[Dresden Ceriano]

It's called roll play for a reason. Honestly, if two consenting adults want to pretend whatever they want (well... besides sexual ageplay) they should be able to. It's not against TOS and it's not illegal either, nor should it be. Fantasies are fantasies, that doesn't mean the person that has them needs to be arrested or see a shrink in and of itself... lord knows some of them do.

I want to say that I truly have respect for Scylla for standing up for what she believes. Though I believe differently, I see where pornography can lead to the objectification of not only women, but men as well, in some reality-challenged minds. But I don't think that means the rest of the people that can differentiate between fantasy and reality should give up their right to partake in such activities if they so choose.

...Dres (I hope I haven't opened up a can of worms)

[Void Singer]

the only relation those regions have to actual rape is the word... really.

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

So, how big a problem is this "harassment by AR" thing, really?

I've been pretty active in Second Life now very nearly 3 years.

I think it's probably fair to say that I am reasonably outspoken,

And I've been banned from a number of places, some of which I've never even visited . . .

. . .

but I have

never

, to my recollection, been threatened with an AR. 

So, while I am not going to deny that people have been subject to this kind of harassment, I really have to wonder how common it is.  And what one has to do, where one has to go, or whom one must consort with to be subject to this?

---

I've put my foot in my mouth enough times on some third party forums to have gained a list of people who I'm sure have tried to file false ARs against me at one point or another. Or would have if they were that petty - and much as I may be frustrated with a number of them, I can only think of 3 that I would say would be that petty.

I won't say that LLs never gets lured by a false AR - but I do think its going to be rare and most likely would involve the victim being someone who could be easily stereotyped. That last part is regrettable - making it a much worse situation when the problem occurs. I suspect they're getting better about it over time.

Its almost a good argument for being a high profile resident. If you're well enough known, LLs is more likely to know of you and know that a given accusation is true or false. Prok might be the best example of this. Some people have such an irrational hatred of Prok that I suspect there were times when Prok was subjected to a 100 ARs a day... (there's a story that some people once even spray painted a false accusation against Prok onto the RL walls of LL's offices - definately taking their SL a little too seriously) but much as some may find frustration with that person - if Prok doesn't violate the ToS, Prok's probably safe. I doubt there's a Linden alive who doesn't know Prok's case file in detail. And any resident older than a year who doesn't know who Prok is needs to go play Blue Mars because they're obviously not using SL anymore...

That's not a fair system - just because someone's unknown doesn't mean they should be fair game... But sadly the Lindens and humans and humans tend to have two traits pretty often: They sometimes mess up, and they hate admitting it.

But I still say, I suspect its not all that common.

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

https://my.secondlife.com/love.leonoase/groups

(Please note that this is material that is available on the web, through SL's own web site

 

ETA:  Oh yes, and definitely NSFW.  I might suggest you have a barf bag available as well.

---

OMGWTFBBQLOLCATISTHAT?



 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Mayalily wrote:

 

Back to address Scylla again:  I can't understand why they allow rape sims in the TOS.  That's quite baffling to me in the first place and kind of coconuts imo. 

---

There's a good argument for saying that they're not allowed in the ToS but that there's been a refusal to date to enforce.

Its hate speech.

 

[Mila Edelman]

---

Darrius Gothly wrote:

Hmm .. maybe I'm just incredibly intimidating then. Or I have a different definition of "threat". In either case, I do see your distinction.

Now .. do something bad and I'll show you how I threaten. *grin*

 

PS: I gotta tell this story, cuz it's a funny internet threat story. I had warned a guy that was stalking and harassing women on a video chat site to stop or I would do my best to remove him from the 'Net. His response was to send me a still picture (it was a vidchat that used stills and accompanying text) of his pistol aimed right at his webcam. Knowing that he lived in the Netherlands and I lived in the USA .. my response to him was rather short and to the point:

"Please DO shoot your own webcam .. you idiot!"

PPS: Yes, he backed off.

---

Here's where I engage in a little amusing fantasy.

I have a lot of guns, big and small (yes, they're all registered and legal; we are hobbyists). I think I might consider sending back a picture of me in my white granny nightgown, holding my AK-47. Or the shotgun. No accompanying threats. Just a picture.

[Setekh Ichtama]

Dresden, I probably agree with you more than you think.

My position is that Linden Lab sets the rules and we really should do our best to follow them regardless of how sensible they are or not because they do allow space for everyone to be different. Ask yourself though, in what other virtual world can you run around naked or watch adult rated movies? You have to at least credit Linden Lab for being ahead of the curb in realizing that what might not be so popular today (amongst those who are less right-brained and more culturally conditioned) is still an aspect of human nature that has a place.

In the perfect virtual world, everything should be allowed in my opinion because it is just that,"Virtual". We all should have the freedom to express ourselves in whatever manor we wish because there is truly nothing wrong with it so long as no one is harmed. Just because you might, for example, write a novel having one character murder another or maybe you enjoy watching CSI and other shows, it doesn't follow that you're necessarily a wouldbe murderer or a threat to society. What happens in someones mind or virtual space shouldn't be censored so long as it stays there and others who seek to censor anything, for what they don't understand or what they find morally objectionable, need to come to terms with their condition and not just blindly follow their conditioning.

The simple reality is that the human being is still an imperfect animal and is still moved by certain drives and instincts; that's just who we are. As far as you questioning the intelligence of the Lindens, I think there's a lot they could be doing to accomodate everyone, understanding that those who "break TOS" aren't terrible people who should be banned but instead, an aspect of our nature that can be more creatively "controlled" so no one needs to be banned and this platform can grow to a point where people become more tolerant however, as I mentioned prior, the Lindens set the rules. They determine how liberal or conservative they want their platform to be, right or wrong so, until the day they decide to make a change that takes how they moderate their users in a different direction - and I really don't see that happening since even in these forums they had the word "darn" flagged as as dirty word (shakes head) - we have no choice but to live in accordance to their level of consciousness or leave for another platform that offers us more of the freedoms and tolerance we're looking for.

I will still report TOS violations though because it's a matter of consistency to me.  No one is above the rules here and you shouldn't just get away with violations beause the people around you are more tolerant and you shouldn't have to be punished because people seek to use the rules against you as they see fit. Everyone should abide by them as best they can all the time and if it becomes a problem, then Linden Lab I'm sure will recognize this and make the changes they need to make, but from what I can tell this is exactly the level of behaviour they want to maintain in their game so, helping them has to be a good thing in the longrun because it directly relates to the vision they have for Second Life and the image they want others to walk away with.

[Celestiall Nightfire]

---

Mayalily wrote:

....I can't even understand why someone would want a "rape fantasy" at all?  They needs a psychiatrist.  Scary!!!

---

Rape fantasies are fairly common, and a good percentage of women have this type of sexual fantasy.  (I'm sure Scylla is aware of this, as I'm sure she's read quite a bit, when it comes to human female sexuality) 

I've had rape fantasies, and don't mind saying that, as I do not consider it any big deal. 

[Celestiall Nightfire]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

---

Mayalily wrote:

 

Back to address Scylla again:  I can't understand why they allow rape sims in the TOS.  That's quite baffling to me in the first place and kind of coconuts imo. 

---

There's a good argument for saying that they're not allowed in the ToS but that there's been a refusal to date to enforce.

Its hate speech.

 

---

Two consenting adults, playing out their own sexual fantasies, is not hate speech.    Nor, is it hate speech, when a group of adult people, decide to create a location such as a sim and engage in mutual consenting sexual activities at that location. 

If the activities, language, or actions were directed at other non-consenting persons, then there might be a possible situation that would verge on harassment.  But, "rape sims" as far as I know, are Adult locations that clearly state their purpose, and the people that go there, go there willingly. 

I have no clue as to how someone would accidentally go to such a place.  I've been in SL for 3.5 years, and have never seen a "rape" sim, just like I've never seen a "child" or "kid avatar" sim.  That's because I don't seek those places.  It's not like the sims sneak upon us...and trick us into teleporting to them.   : )

[Mayalily]

Common?  I've never heard of any women having any and I have mostly women in my family including me. 

No such thought has ever occurred in my head, so I find that biased as no evidence was shared to reach such a conclusion.

 

But you know what, they say you can't understand a person unless you walk a mile in their shoes.  So, if you haven't been through it, I don't think you'd understand. 

I just really disagree with you, as since my family is mostly women, I can tell you most assuredly that they do not wish of nor fantasize about being raped, nor do I. 

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

---

Mayalily wrote:

 

Back to address Scylla again:  I can't understand why they allow rape sims in the TOS.  That's quite baffling to me in the first place and kind of coconuts imo. 

---

There's a good argument for saying that they're not allowed in the ToS but that there's been a refusal to date to enforce.

Its hate speech.

 

---

Two consenting adults, playing out their own sexual fantasies, is not hate speech.    Nor, is it hate speech, when a group of adult people, decide to create a location such as a sim and engage in mutual consenting sexual activities at that location.

---

If I made a sim where we 'roleplayed' putting certain members of a real life faith and ethnicity into gas ovens... or roleplayed a certain other ethnicity getting lynched... People would laugh if I tried to call it anything -but- hate speech. A rape RP environment is no different.

 

[Celestiall Nightfire]

---

Mayalily wrote:

Common?  I've never heard of any women having any and I have mostly women in my family including me. 

---

Yes, they are common.   All you have to do is a quick google search and you can find legitimate research on this topic.   Have you never read any research or college textbooks on human sexuality?   Or read articles, that cite their sources?  This is such a well known topic, that your reaction surprises me. 

Also, Mayalily, just because you have not actually heard the women you know state that they have these fantasies, does not mean they are not having them.  Do you discuss sexual fantasies with your family and friends?   There is quite a bit of research of this subject, if you care to look into it.

 

---

Mayalily wrote:

No such thought has ever occurred in my head, so I find that biased as no evidence was shared to reach such a conclusion.

---

Hmm, not sure I follow what you're saying with that sentence above?    Just because you have never had that particular sexual fantasy, does not mean that lots of other women have not had it.   (just as having a fantasy does not necessarily mean others do have it)  

But, as there is data collected on human sexuality, it has been documented that many women do have this fantasy.  There are probably more women that have the rape fantasy that do not admit to it, as they fear to reveal their secret sexual thoughts.  Many people grow up in sexually repressed environments and do not talk about sex with others.

 

---

Mayalily wrote:

But you know what, they say you can't understand a person unless you walk a mile in their shoes.  So, if you haven't been through it, I don't think you'd understand. 

---

It's called empathy Mayalily.  Empathy means that one can, through placing themselves mentally and emotionally into another's "shoes"....understand.   I do empathize and understand where you are coming from.  But, are you capable of doing that same for those that are different from you? 

 

---

Mayalily wrote:

I just really disagree with you, as since my family is mostly women, I can tell you most assuredly that they do not wish of nor fantasize about being raped, nor do I. 

---

Unless you have explicitly discussed sexual fantasies with the women in your family then you don't know what they fantasize about.  Even then, they may not admit it to you, or anyone. 

It's also possible that you and all the women in your family do not have this fantasy.  It varies from person to person.  Just as some people like chocolate and some like vanilla.  People desire, seek and are aroused by different things.

Remember the thread discussing avatar looks that others find attractive?  There were so many different opinions and reactions.  Well, human sexuality and sexual fantasies are the same, they vary greatly across a spectrum.

If you're interested in learning more about human sexuality, I suggest taking some college courses on the subject.  There are also a great deal of seminal studies and research on this subject that can be located at public libraries.