Discrimination or not?

[Gwendolyne Finney]

I think it is fun to play with the darker side of creatures in Second Life, whether human, elf or otherwise, and make them look nearly believable and/or realistic. So mostly I go around in SL as a dark, horned elf and occasionally as a light blue horned elf, a mermaid or a vixen. The only thing that sometimes makes me sad, is that you aren't always allowed in certain sims when you are not human. For example, I would love to go sailing on the seas in [some] sims such as [redacted], but alas, I am not allowed there, because I do not fit to their rules (although mermaids are okay?). That said, it doesn't make me change my avatar to access those places anymore. My loss or perhaps theirs, depending how you look at it? After all, I am who I am.

I realise that every sim owner has the right to decide how to run their own sim, but it does seem odd that you can have fantasy segregation in certain sims where certain creatures next to humans are allowed, but not others (especially when they are made to look as realistic as possible)?

Edited April 10, 2023 by Gwendolyne Finney
Criticising region by name

[benchthis]

Maybe regions need review system? I don't travel as openly as I used to. If I could read reviews on a region, I would travel there. Maybe only residents with payment information on file can review and a way the region own can respond to reviews. For example.

Review: This region descriminated against me because I have a dark skin avatar.

Region Owner: We apologize for the misunderstanding and we have members from all mesh skin tones and all are welcome. We will follow up with the reviewer and come up with ways to fix.

 

[steeljane42]

You've answered your own question. Their place - their rules. Also they are not obligated to even explain you a reason why either, so unless someone would be dumb enough to actually announce banning people of certain skin colors, there wouldn't be any outcries.

Place's owner can eject/ban you even if they don't like your name, or the hair color, and you have zero rights about it. Just move on and find places you enjoy and that are more fitting for your avatar of choice.

And as much as I enjoy fantasy looks myself, in some places, for example some history or even just modern days/urban RP regions they are out of place. Most users of said fantasy avatars realize that and don't move past landing area where they can read the rules and adjust avatar if they want to join, but some still jump in using their not fitting (for the place's theme) look.

 

4 minutes ago, benchthis said:

Maybe regions need review system?

No. See the MP reviews. "I didn't read the product's description, I didn't try the demo, and I don't know how to use SL. Awful product - 1*" and then some creators trying to explain those things to them in replies that most likely remain unread forever.. Not to mention some language barriers.

Plus a whole field for leaving fake reviews on a place that someone might dislike for some reason.

[Rowan Amore]

57 minutes ago, Gwendolyne Finney said:

odd that you can have fantasy segregation in certain sims

Many regions have a "human only" avatar restriction.  If a more realistic environment is their desire, having a blue elf would break that realism they enjoy.  It's not exactly the same as discrimination against skin color of human avatars.  There are no such things as elves, mermaids or vixens.

On the reverse, there are also regions that don't allow human avatars so there ya go.

[Dafadilia Wayfarer]

 I don't think it is discrimination at all. You can't discriminate against something that only exists in fantasy. Sim owners have every right to decide on their own rules. They are paying for that right. It is their space. Just as it is your choice to dress your avatar as you wish.

Personally, I've never experienced anything like this and I'm an elf full time in SL.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

If you were on steam or Uplay and tried to get into a game that had to do with zombies, but wanted to take your character from Mario bro's in there, you wouldn't be able to do it.. Because they are separate games

A lot of people set their themes in their worlds in SL the same way..They want to keep the theme in their world for immersion.

Don't look at SL as the world, because it's not.. Look at SL as the universe with a lot of worlds..

The theme for the universe of second life is, Your world, Your imagination.. As much as we want others to respect our world and our imagination, we should respect their worlds and their imagination as well..

 

[Gwendolyne Finney]

Maybe I should rephrase the bit about fantasy segregation in certain sims. Of course I understand that when certain RP is wanted, they would like a specific look to a sim. I was really aiming at those sims, that do not have that specific aim, but advertise themselves as sims that are lovely to e.g. sail in or enjoy nature - without any other meaning. I am surprised that one would allow a mermaid in (also a fantasy creature), but not a dark elf. In those cases, both are humanoid, but still fiction figures. That was really my question in this case. I am not so unaware to not understand the difference and I am aware, that humans are not always allowed in certain other sims. I was just referring to sims that in a way do not mention the whole RP/reality regulations, but do differentiate between certain fantasy creatures.

[steeljane42]

25 minutes ago, Gwendolyne Finney said:

I am surprised that one would allow a mermaid in (also a fantasy creature), but not a dark elf. In those cases, both are humanoid, but still fiction figures. That was really my question in this case

It's really up to personal preferences of the place's owner who to allow or not. Maybe they like mermaids and dislike elves, or it can be the other way around in another place. That's it, there's no need for any other reason other than "place's owner does not want avatars looking like this or that at their place".

And again, they don't even owe you (me, or anyone else) a reason why they don't want someone around. Even if there would be some rules in place regarding those things, hypothetically speaking of course, then people would just keep the reason to themselves and not even reply to your question why they did it.

[Maitimo]

11 minutes ago, Gwendolyne Finney said:

Maybe I should rephrase the bit about fantasy segregation in certain sims. Of course I understand that when certain RP is wanted, they would like a specific look to a sim. I was really aiming at those sims, that do not have that specific aim, but advertise themselves as sims that are lovely to e.g. sail in or enjoy nature - without any other meaning. I am surprised that one would allow a mermaid in (also a fantasy creature), but not a dark elf. In those cases, both are humanoid, but still fiction figures. That was really my question in this case. I am not so unaware to not understand the difference and I am aware, that humans are not always allowed in certain other sims. I was just referring to sims that in a way do not mention the whole RP/reality regulations, but do differentiate between certain fantasy creatures.

My guess is that the owner, staff member or a very close friend of one of the above, wanted to be a mermaid, but didn't want to be a dark elf. So they made a new rule to accommodate that one person's wishes. My other guess is that, unless you are a staff member or very close friend of the owner, you're not going to be able to get them to change their mind. Because this region's primary product is sex, and their customers, on the whole, want sex with humans.

I'd also lay a bet that it's more about skin colour and hair colour (in a "does it look like a colour that's possible in humans" sense rather than a racist sense) than anything else. I've been an elf for 14 years, and I've hung out at this particular place many times, with no issues and I've never been asked to leave, even when my pointed ears were visible. But, I have a skin colour and hair colour that's common in humans. And I don't normally have horns.

It's not discrimination though, it's simply a dresscode, because in SL, it's never about something you can't change. Your avatar's species, size, manner of dress, hairstyle, shape and skin are all changeable. If you want to visit a place, you have a choice; change your appearance to meet their dresscode,  or don't visit. It's the same thing as the fancy swanky restaurant uptown that doesn't allow guests wearing jeans and sneakers.  If you're not willing to change your appearance, that's on you, not on the region owner.

I have to say though, I think your avatar is absolutely gorgeous. 

[Ceka Cianci]

28 minutes ago, Gwendolyne Finney said:

Maybe I should rephrase the bit about fantasy segregation in certain sims. Of course I understand that when certain RP is wanted, they would like a specific look to a sim. I was really aiming at those sims, that do not have that specific aim, but advertise themselves as sims that are lovely to e.g. sail in or enjoy nature - without any other meaning. I am surprised that one would allow a mermaid in (also a fantasy creature), but not a dark elf. In those cases, both are humanoid, but still fiction figures. That was really my question in this case. I am not so unaware to not understand the difference and I am aware, that humans are not always allowed in certain other sims. I was just referring to sims that in a way do not mention the whole RP/reality regulations, but do differentiate between certain fantasy creatures.

I'll usually make sure by looking at the rules of the world before I start to move about.. For sailing, some may have a reason for mermaids but also not want  demons running the beaches and so on.. Sailing and mermaids do have a certain theme together even if they aren't fully RP..

Usually it will be in the rules or note cards of what someone wants in their world for the setting.. There may be a reason they allow this type of fantasy character like  mermaids and not others.. There doesn't really have to be RP involved to want a certain feel to a world.. Some may just like the feel of the presence of certain things and not the others for atmosphere..

Myself ,I'll usually just weigh  things out on if it's worth changing or not..

 

[benchthis]

1 hour ago, steeljane42 said:

1 hour ago, benchthis said:

Maybe regions need review system?

No. See the MP reviews. "I didn't read the product's description, I didn't try the demo, and I don't know how to use SL. Awful product - 1*" and then some creators trying to explain those things to them in replies that most likely remain unread forever.. Not to mention some language barriers.

Plus a whole field for leaving fake reviews on a place that someone might dislike for some reason.

This is why it's important to have built into the review process a way owners can respond and then after resoultion is met the original reviewer may have opportunity to update review. This is common in real life and appears to work. Example:

Reviewer: This product does not fit my avatar and no one responds for help

Owner: Reached out to buyer for resoultion.

Reviewer: resolution reached great service. 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

8 minutes ago, benchthis said:

This is why it's important to have built into the review process a way owners can respond and then after resoultion is met the original reviewer may have opportunity to update review. This is common in real life and appears to work. Example:

Reviewer: This product does not fit my avatar and no one responds for help

Owner: Reached out to buyer for resoultion.

Reviewer: resolution reached great service. 

 

Moron: "The 'Strictly no male avatars lesbian hangout' region is terrible, they banned me immediately because I'm a guy, 0/10 for customer service"

Sim Owner: "The clue is in the name, you dimwit"

Moron: "This is terrible customer service, LL need to fix this discrimination now!"

Sim Owner: "Fork off and Dye..."

 

Yeah, review system for parcels, let's not and say we did.

[benchthis]

1 hour ago, Gwendolyne Finney said:

Maybe I should rephrase the bit about fantasy segregation in certain sims. Of course I understand that when certain RP is wanted, they would like a specific look to a sim. I was really aiming at those sims, that do not have that specific aim, but advertise themselves as sims that are lovely to e.g. sail in or enjoy nature - without any other meaning. I am surprised that one would allow a mermaid in (also a fantasy creature), but not a dark elf. In those cases, both are humanoid, but still fiction figures. That was really my question in this case. I am not so unaware to not understand the difference and I am aware, that humans are not always allowed in certain other sims. I was just referring to sims that in a way do not mention the whole RP/reality regulations, but do differentiate between certain fantasy creatures.

If I payed hundreds of $ per month for a region I would want people to visit not repel them and stir up negative energy. Who knows why people do what they do, some get on a power trip and they basically pay to block people all day and try to ruin people's days. I feel sorry for people like that. "it's my land and you are not invited, it's my land and you are not invited." I avoid places like that. Honestly the place sounds more like a nightmare than a fantasy. 

[benchthis]

41 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

It's really up to personal preferences of the place's owner who to allow or not. Maybe they like mermaids and dislike elves

that sounds like descrimination, if not noted that there is active dress code requirements for region made clear initially.  

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 minute ago, benchthis said:

If I payed hundreds of $ per month for a region I would want people to visit not repel them and stir up negative energy. Who knows why people do what they do

A friend of mine is paying a couple of hundred USD a month to own a full private estate region, which is used to host her private friends & family only home, the private friends and family only homes of some of her close friends, and a Lesbian Club,. No male avatars are allowed on the region, at all.

Yes they want people to visit, but not just ANY people, they want people like themselves, nnot naked noob guys with sculpty freenises, demanding free SLex.

[benchthis]

8 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

 

Moron: "The 'Strictly no male avatars lesbian hangout' region is terrible, they banned me immediately because I'm a guy, 0/10 for customer service"

Sim Owner: "The clue is in the name, you dimwit"

Moron: "This is terrible customer service, LL need to fix this discrimination now!"

Sim Owner: "Fork off and Dye..."

 

Yeah, review system for parcels, let's not and say we did.

I would deff avoid that place.

[benchthis]

3 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

A friend of mine is paying a couple of hundred USD a month to own a full private estate region, which is used to host her private friends & family only home, the private friends and family only homes of some of her close friends, and a Lesbian Club,. No male avatars are allowed on the region, at all.

Yes they want people to visit, but not just ANY people, they want people like themselves, nnot naked noob guys with sculpty freenises, demanding free SLex.

A region description screen could pop up giving potential visitors more information about your region and if they agree and are ready to teleport proceed, If you need to change or disagree do not proceed with teleport. 

SL has all the right things going on they just need to clean it up a bit. 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 minutes ago, benchthis said:

I would deff avoid that place.

Less work for the automated zero-second-warning "punt kick and estate ban all male avatars" security orb...

[benchthis]

3 minutes ago, benchthis said:

A region description screen could pop up giving potential visitors more information about your region and if they agree and are ready to teleport proceed, If you need to change or disagree do not proceed with teleport. 

SL has all the right things going on they just need to clean it up a bit. 

And! the teleport screen could also display region reviews. 

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, benchthis said:

And! the teleport screen could also display region reviews. 

No

[benchthis]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

No

I accept that. Moving on. 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 minutes ago, benchthis said:

A region description screen could pop up giving potential visitors more information about your region and if they agree and are ready to teleport proceed, If you need to change or disagree do not proceed with teleport. 

SL has all the right things going on they just need to clean it up a bit. 

You have this bizarre obsession with making things more complicated than they need to be for absolutelly no logical reason.

 

SL has this thing you can do, right click on any landmark, or slurl, and "show place information", you get a popup that shows the Parcel Name, Parcel Description, and Maturity Rating.

So

Name "Absulutetly no male avataars allowed lesbian hangout"

Desc: "A female avatar only hangout, no male avatars allowed, transgressors will be instantly booted and parma banned"

Maturity: "Adult"

 

See, easy isn't it, no need for your cumbersome review system or indeed ANY suggestion you might make.

[benchthis]

Just now, Zalificent Corvinus said:

You have this bizarre obsession with making things more complicated than they need to be for absolutelly no logical reason.

The reason is to retain universal users, without them we will not exist. Currently users are pretty much blind when they enter a region, they have no idea of rules until they are banned. New users are showing up to places landing on scripted objects being spammed prolly targeted for fraud and rejected. Are those people going to want to spend time or money here? 

Also on the teleport screen should be made clear something like this "This Region is "owned" by another resident. The following rules have been established. 

I don't see any better solution to this perpetual problem. I can not simplify it any future. It is the least complicated solution if positive results are desired. 

 

[benchthis]

8 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

SL has this thing you can do, right click on any landmark, or slurl, and "show place information", you get a popup that shows the Parcel Name, Parcel Description, and Maturity Rating.

If this information was on the teleport screen before teleported prolly be handier than being new somehow magically figuring out how to do all of that before getting banned and alienated from the platform. 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 minutes ago, benchthis said:

I can not simplify it any future. It is the least complicated solution if positive results are desired. 

Your definition of a "positive result" apparently involves spamming regular SecondLifers with endless "Tin-Foil-Hat-Club" warnings, every time they sit on a scripted sofa and get a pose menu popup, or teleport to a store or a club, or try to buy anything, annoying spam that will drive off more users than it retains.

 

"Warning, you are attempting to teleport to the parcel 'Dark Love" This parcel is NOT owned by the LLDWP.

500 real Secondliverswho know this is a store selling goth clothing for female mesh bodies have rated this parcel 4/5 stars.

5000 clueless no payment on file 1 day noobguys who hoped it was a place to get free kinkky slex, rated it 0/5 stars.

LL does not reccomend you teleport to this location, if you wish to do so regardless, plase click the 'I accept the annoying disclaimer" button on thos annoying popup"

 

Sorry but no, like all your suggestions, its un-needed complication for the sake of destroying SL by driving off the existing userbase.