Inventory folders, their size, underfolders

[Marianne Little]

It is some long threads about folder size, but I really do not want to read all, so:

1. Do we know how many items a folder can have?
2. If we don't know the limit, what do you recommend?

A: Can folders have larger numbers if we create many underfolders, and the underfolders have underfolders? I make a Furniture folder - can it have 3000 items, where it is organized in underfolders like Kraftwork, Fancy Decor, Apple Fall? And also smaller folders? Let us say I have Apple Fall -> No Copy, Apple Fall boxed, Apple Fall, West Village boxed, West Village?

B: If yes, what is the limit?

• Can System Folders hold larger numbers than folders we create?

Body Parts System Folder 5000 items - hair 1200 items - Doux 100 items, Magica 75 items, Stealthic 50 items, and a lot of smaller folders like Monso, Exile, Faga? Same for makeup, nails, eyes, skins?

 

[Resi Pfeffer]

1 hour ago, Marianne Little said:

It is some long threads about folder size, but I really do not want to read all, so:

I didnt read those threads either, but i believe to know,  having the inventory shaped like an extensive tree root is the best thing one can do anyway. 
So, you probably can have 50K+ clothing items, as long as they are spread and nicely sorted in sub, subsub, subsubsub folders.

[Gabriele Graves]

All documented limits are here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Limits

From the page:

Inventory

• Maximum number of inventory items that can be sent in a folder: 42
  • Folders count as items too. This has more to do with packet size limits than cheeky Douglas Adams references.
• Maximum number of inventory items that can be contained in a prim: 10,000
• Maximum characters in an inventory item name: 63
• Maximum notecard line: None, but scripts can only read the first 1024 bytes (was 255 bytes before server version 2021-10-25.565008).
• Maximum notecard size: 65,536 bytes
• Number of items in the Library: 3,500 as of 2019-08-10
  • Verified by hiding the Library and counting the difference.
• Maximum number of inventory items displayed in a single inventory folder: Several thousand.
  • This was discussed during [1] "the folder will load up to the limit number of items, and remaining ones won't show up in the viewer. you still own them, they aren't lost, but they will be hidden until the folder size is reduced."
  • There is no specified limit for total avatar inventory, very large folders can be split.
  • There was discussion in the Third Party Developers' UG (4/10/2015) meeting about new inventory and login problems from having large numbers of items in a single folder. AISv3 removed server-side limits on the number of items in a folder. Flat inventories are bad. No one is certain at what number of items in a folder cause a login problem. The fix is to clear the inventory cache (not the viewer cache) and log into a deserted, empty region then move inventory items into folders and sub-folders. - The problem appears at different a number of items depending on your computer and connection speed. Hopefully being on an empty region will give one enough edge to get logged in and do some corrective work before being dropped. If not, you will need to contact support for help. They will divide large folders into smaller groups so you can log in.

[Marianne Little]

1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

All documented limits are here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Limits

From the page:

Inventory

• Maximum number of inventory items displayed in a single inventory folder: Several thousand.
  • This was discussed during [1] "the folder will load up to the limit number of items, and remaining ones won't show up in the viewer. you still own them, they aren't lost, but they will be hidden until the folder size is reduced."
  • There is no specified limit for total avatar inventory, very large folders can be split.
  • There was discussion in the Third Party Developers' UG (4/10/2015) meeting about new inventory and login problems from having large numbers of items in a single folder. AISv3 removed server-side limits on the number of items in a folder. Flat inventories are bad. No one is certain at what number of items in a folder cause a login problem. The fix is to clear the inventory cache (not the viewer cache) and log into a deserted, empty region then move inventory items into folders and sub-folders. - The problem appears at different a number of items depending on your computer and connection speed. Hopefully being on an empty region will give one enough edge to get logged in and do some corrective work before being dropped. If not, you will need to contact support for help. They will divide large folders into smaller groups so you can log in.

I go straight to this: 

Weekend sales and BoM makeups explodes my inventory.

But I am very fond of my System Folders. I have the inventory set to "Always System Folders on top".

Tl. dr.:

I do not have calling cards, and few scripts and snapshots. I only have a few landmarks, because stores move and it's no point.

It is no problem to store things that's not meant to me there? Hairs in the Calling Card folder? ? It does not cause  problems to fill empty System Folders? So I have maybe 50 000 on top in the inventory.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rant:

I really work on the inventory. I took and deleted 5000 items now, in 2 days. I have deleted all the sizes for bodies I do not use. Belleza, Legacy, Slink and the new ones. All TMP stuff is deleted. All demos. All unpacker scripts, thank-you notes and landmarks. In a single folder from Kraftwork, I have to delete 2 notecards and 2 landmarks. If I didn't, it would be hundreds.

I put the older items and things I do not use in a folder and take them out. Other gift heads, older Catwa heads I bought, Coco doll avatars and such. Maybe the creator disappear, discontinue older stuff, so can never have a redelivery. Maybe I find out I need my armour, weapons and fantasy avatars.

I try to trash older clothes, but I am afraid to find out too late, that special costumes is deleted. It is so few folders with a picture in them. And trying on every folder is taking so long. Earlier this year, I deleted over 25 000 in one go. I delete hundreds from my trash in between. I delete many thousands evey year.

I am trying to keep the inventory around 100 000. Maybe I have to realize it is a lost cause and say okay, let it rise to 200 000. I have been is SL for so long, and creators are really good. Plus sales.

 

 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Marianne Little said:

I go straight to this: 

Weekend sales and BoM makeups explodes my inventory.

But I am very fond of my System Folders. I have the inventory set to "Always System Folders on top".

Tl. dr.:

I do not have calling cards, and few scripts and snapshots. I only have a few landmarks, because stores move and it's no point.

It is no problem to store things that's not meant to me there? Hairs in the Calling Card folder? ? It does not cause  problems to fill empty System Folders? So I have maybe 50 000 on top in the inventory.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rant:

I really work on the inventory. I took and deleted 5000 items now, in 2 days. I have deleted all the sizes for bodies I do not use. Belleza, Legacy, Slink and the new ones. All TMP stuff is deleted. All demos. All unpacker scripts, thank-you notes and landmarks. In a single folder from Kraftwork, I have to delete 2 notecards and 2 landmarks. If I didn't, it would be hundreds.

I put the older items and things I do not use in a folder and take them out. Other gift heads, older Catwa heads I bought, Coco doll avatars and such. Maybe the creator disappear, discontinue older stuff, so can never have a redelivery. Maybe I find out I need my armour, weapons and fantasy avatars.

I try to trash older clothes, but I am afraid to find out too late, that special costumes is deleted. It is so few folders with a picture in them. And trying on every folder is taking so long. Earlier this year, I deleted over 25 000 in one go. I delete hundreds from my trash in between. I delete many thousands evey year.

I am trying to keep the inventory around 100 000. Maybe I have to realize it is a lost cause and say okay, let it rise to 200 000. I have been is SL for so long, and creators are really good. Plus sales.

 

 

 

A big inventory is not "bad", so long as you distribute everything into "sub folders".  Too many items in ONE folder is the main issue.

[Emma Krokus]

I'm hitting nearly 100k inventory.

I use the folders provided by the system, but also a number of CUSTOM folders I've created myself. If I keep SYSTEM folders on top, these appear under the Trash.

My SYSTEM and CUSTOM folders have subfolders, and sub sub folders etc.

I do have issues with inventory I know I have not showing on SEARCH.

Is there an issue with having large CUSTOM folders? Would it be better to move those CUSTOM folders into a SYTEM folders instead?

I'd love to know.

Emma  

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Emma Krokus said:

Is there an issue with having large CUSTOM folders?

Yes.

3 minutes ago, Emma Krokus said:

Would it be better to move those CUSTOM folders into a SYTEM folders instead?

No.

I never heard anyplace that large SYSTEM folders is OK - I only saw the question asked by Maryanne Little in this thread.

[Emma Krokus]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Is there an issue with having large CUSTOM folders? Yes.

Would it be better to move those CUSTOM folders into a SYSTEM folder instead? No.

I never heard anyplace that large SYSTEM folders is OK - I only saw the question asked by Maryanne Little in this thread.

Thanks for your reply, Love  

If there is an issue with large custom folders, what do you suggest I do? (As I said, I am already using subfolders inside those.) 

Emma  

[Gabriele Graves]

You have to start to create a deeper, nested folder structure with no single folder having more than a few hundred items directly within it.  It will be hard work.

One consolation is that you probably haven't tripped over the semi-reliable method I found of sending your inventory in to a never ending recursive replication loop copying the same folder structure over and over again one level deeper each time which locks up the viewer.  I found that the only way to stop the whole thing is to kill the viewer, log back in and then delete the top level folder of the whole replicating structure and then empty trash before the viewer locks up again.  I can attest that your inventory can get really big in very little time at all.

That can only happen on deep folder structures.

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Emma Krokus said:

Thanks for your reply, Love  

If there is an issue with large custom folders, what do you suggest I do? (As I said, I am already using subfolders inside those.) 

Emma  

Subfolders is the "fix".

The problem is a large items in ONE folder all at the SAME level.

Sorry if I was not clear.

Disclaimer: I have not experienced this issue myself, I have just tried to keep up.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Gabriele Graves said:

deeper, nested folder structure with no single folder having more than a few hundred items directly within it.

Perhaps this is the specific advice those asking need.

I did not remember the "few hundred items" restriction but it certainly makes sense to set a "reasonable" limit.

 

[Gabriele Graves]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Perhaps this is the specific advice those asking need.

I did not remember the "few hundred items" restriction but it certainly makes sense to set a "reasonable" limit.

 

It's not a restriction, just a recommendation.  The limits wiki says "several thousand" per folder but tbh if you are going to do a major overhaul of your inventory to create a nested structure from a flat one, you might as well make it easier to use too.  I certainly wouldn't recommend trying to find out where the line is on "several thousand".

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

The limits wiki says "several thousand" per folder

I can't tell that the Inventory section in the Wiki was updated recently with relevant information (last update was Notecard lines).

I hope someone updates it with more specific information relevant to the new guidance.

[Gabriele Graves]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I can't tell that the Inventory section in the Wiki was updated recently with relevant information (last update was Notecard lines).

I hope someone updates it with more specific information relevant to the new guidance.

That's the problem with these things, you can never tell if the information is current or out of date

[Emma Krokus]

Just to be clear my CUSTOM folders are nested, as are my SYSTEM folders. For ease of finding things, as well as hopefully helping smooth running...

I am very interested to know about best practice.

 

Emma  

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

That's the problem with these things, you can never tell if the information is current or out of date

Ideally, when it is updated, "they" (whoever "they" are) will add the guidance on "subfolders" (not just "item limits").

[Emma Krokus]

20 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

You have to start to create a deeper, nested folder structure with no single folder having more than a few hundred items directly within it.  It will be hard work.

One consolation is that you probably haven't tripped over the semi-reliable method I found of sending your inventory in to a never ending recursive replication loop copying the same folder structure over and over again one level deeper each time which locks up the viewer.  I found that the only way to stop the whole thing is to kill the viewer, log back in and then delete the top level folder of the whole replicating structure and then empty trash before the viewer locks up again.  I can attest that your inventory can get really big in very little time at all.

That can only happen on deep folder structures.

Firstly, I already have a deeply nested folder structure. Thank goodness I sorted things from the start of my 14 year SL journey.

I have never had the recursive replication loop happen to me yet!!!  Now I am terrified - so thanks for posting the solution too!

Emma  

[Gabriele Graves]

11 minutes ago, Emma Krokus said:

Firstly, I already have a deeply nested folder structure. Thank goodness I sorted things from the start of my 14 year SL journey.

Yup, gotcha.

11 minutes ago, Emma Krokus said:

I have never had the recursive replication loop happen to me yet!!!  Now I am terrified - so thanks for posting the solution too!

Emma  

Unless you are copying and pasting large a folder structure into itself you won't hit this.  So probably no need to worry.

[Love Zhaoying]

34 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

One consolation is that you probably haven't tripped over the semi-reliable method I found of sending your inventory in to a never ending recursive replication loop copying the same folder structure over and over again one level deeper each time which locks up the viewer.  I found that the only way to stop the whole thing is to kill the viewer, log back in and then delete the top level folder of the whole replicating structure and then empty trash before the viewer locks up again.  I can attest that your inventory can get really big in very little time at all.

Wait..this happens AFTER the recent fixes / changes?

I am missing something: was this happening because you had "too deep a structure", or "too many items in a subfolder", or was it just a viewer bug that happened when the viewer had a bad day?

[Gabriele Graves]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Wait..this happens AFTER the recent fixes / changes?

I am missing something: was this happening because you had "too deep a structure", or "too many items in a subfolder", or was it just a viewer bug that happened when the viewer had a bad day?

The first time I saw this was a couple of years ago and I tripped it again a little while ago.

Who knows why?  I only have a semi-reliable reproduction anyway.  It's most likely the viewer that is doing it.  I can hazard a guess that instead of taking a copy of all of the names/ids of the items in the folder structure that need to be copied at the start of the paste and then copying just those items, maybe instead it iterates through the structure as it is copying and pasting and so then starts to copy and paste the items it has already done.  There might be a race condition in there somewhere that causes it to happen.  It may not be that simple though as sometimes it happens but most times it doesn't.  Just a theories though.

[Marianne Little]

44 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

You have to start to create a deeper, nested folder structure with no single folder having more than a few hundred items directly within it.  It will be hard work.

One consolation is that you probably haven't tripped over the semi-reliable method I found of sending your inventory in to a never ending recursive replication loop copying the same folder structure over and over again one level deeper each time which locks up the viewer.  I found that the only way to stop the whole thing is to kill the viewer, log back in and then delete the top level folder of the whole replicating structure and then empty trash before the viewer locks up again.  I can attest that your inventory can get really big in very little time at all.

That can only happen on deep folder structures.

I have problems with deep-deep-deep nesting.

Makeup packs is often eyemakeup and lipstick in the same. I can't divide it, it is too complicated. And I need the image of how it looks. If I split a mixed pack in 2, I must take a picture of it to have in both and... and... I just can't do that too. So I have folders  organized by creator. Goreglam, Beaumore, Izzies and so on. The container/delivery bag is in a underfolder. 

I have 1200 of Stun poses in one folder. It is lots of smaller folders with 6, 8, 12 animations in each. And a folder of the containers they came in. I am not sure if it is nested "enough". Maybe I can have breathing poses in a folder, stand poses in a folder, the few couple poses in a third, containers in a fourth. The stand poses would be the majority, maybe 800 - 1000. 

Furniture sellers have fatpacks, I buy one for a bedroom, it has art, lamps and rugs. Do I split it in subfolders? Beds in one folder, rugs, lamps, and art? It makes me go crazy. I can't decide.

I admire those who has everything organized in every small detail. I think I can never be like that.

I find it easier to buy new things instead of looking through the inventory. Of course it grows. 😪

[Gabriele Graves]

12 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I have problems with deep-deep-deep nesting.

You are not alone, many, many people are the same.  It's probably more common than those that organise.

You have my sympathies, all I can offer is that whatever structure you do come up with that it needs to make sense to your brain because your brain will be the one trying to find things easily again and that will rely on the associations your brain makes.  For each person this will be different.

Also you can have something in more than one folder - just use links.  This way you can categorise things according to multiple criteria.  Yes, technically it grows the number of items but that doesn't really matter as link aren't really objects, just a reference and this will aid in creating a structure that you can maintain and use.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Gabriele Graves

[Marianne Little]

Skell Dagger spoke to me in this post.  Lost in Inventory: “I just do eyes!” (Plus an awesome tip for that initial sort of your chaotic inventory!) – Virtual Bloke

It is yes on almost every point. I got a laptop that's not super super strong, but much better. So log in time is no problem.

• You’ve tried to sort it all before – possibly several times – but you gave up. And now your inventory is even more of a mess than before, with random partially sorted folders everywhere
• You have no idea what you’ve unpacked and not unpacked. Some stuff has been unpacked more than once, and you daren’t even open your Received Items folder
• You’ve been out shopping at the weekend sales, and a vendor refunded you with the admonishment of ‘You’ve already purchased this item!’ Or, worse still, it wasn’t one of those nice refunding vendors, and only once you’d made a half-hearted effort at filing the item did you realise that you’d already purchased it
• Your login time is getting so long that you could probably go and make a cup of tea while you wait
• You love BoM, but the sheer number of items you now get with it (40 individual layers instead of one applier HUD) has made you throw your hands up in despair and resign yourself to just living with the chaos

[Ayashe Ninetails]

6 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I have problems with deep-deep-deep nesting.

Makeup packs is often eyemakeup and lipstick in the same. I can't divide it, it is too complicated. And I need the image of how it looks. If I split a mixed pack in 2, I must take a picture of it to have in both and... and... I just can't do that too. So I have folders  organized by creator. Goreglam, Beaumore, Izzies and so on. The container/delivery bag is in a underfolder. 

I have 1200 of Stun poses in one folder. It is lots of smaller folders with 6, 8, 12 animations in each. And a folder of the containers they came in. I am not sure if it is nested "enough". Maybe I can have breathing poses in a folder, stand poses in a folder, the few couple poses in a third, containers in a fourth. The stand poses would be the majority, maybe 800 - 1000. 

Furniture sellers have fatpacks, I buy one for a bedroom, it has art, lamps and rugs. Do I split it in subfolders? Beds in one folder, rugs, lamps, and art? It makes me go crazy. I can't decide.

I admire those who has everything organized in every small detail. I think I can never be like that.

I find it easier to buy new things instead of looking through the inventory. Of course it grows. 😪

I don't really have a single standard and treat most things on a case-by-case basis, buuuut...

I put makeup sets into their own folder in my Makeup folder. Usually. Folders are also broken down by SLUV and EVO X. Mostly. I'm still working on that. I have no idea why I'm dating things. I should stop that.

 

My animations are usually sorted by store. When I glance in there and see a ton of folders from one place, it gets its own folder and nudged to the top with a !. Same with photo booths.

Furniture is more of a random mess. Some by store, some by type, some by room. I reallllllly need to get in there and fix that up.

Home & Garden at the top level, House Furniture, Outdoor & Garden, Houses, Skyboxes, etc. Then in House Furniture, there are some store folders and a big top-level House Decor folder. And then a random mess of folders from all over the place that I really need to organize. From there...House Decor is broken down into a Holidays folder, Table & Counter Clutter (my biggest folder I bet), Food (ok maybe this is my biggest), Lighting, Plants, Artwork & Walls, etc. etc.

My basic rule of thumb is if I start seeing the same store name repeatedly, it's time to make it a folder in whatever section it's sitting in (like if I see a ton of food from What Next, I'll make a What Next folder in my food folder - which reminds me, I really need to make a What Next folder!). I don't prioritize sorting by rooms since I most often decorate living rooms and kitchens.

By far, Home & Garden is my biggest mess. Clothing is my most organized. Not doing too badly with my skins, worn mesh, and avatar-related things, either.

[Marianne Little]

I think Skell know me too well. 😁

We make a supreme effort. We delete the demos, the notecards, the landmarks, the unpacker scripts, the sizes we don’t wear… and then within a couple of week we’ve hit up Fifty Linden Friday, Wanderlust Weekend, Saturday Sale, and Happy Weekend, and our inventory turns around and yells “SURPRISE!” at us.

I have done step one in Skell's suggestion. Going further is a bit too overwhelming. But I have sorted my inventory in alphabetical order, and then I find surprises. What is that store, I never heard about it... why do I have 24 things from it?