Request/Suggestion to all TPV creators

[Phil Deakins]

I am frequently disappointed when I find that notecards written in one viewer are literally spoiled in others. It's because the lengths of the = and - characters are different in different viewers. Those characters are commonly used for lines in instructions, and lines in one viewer can be almost half as long again, or shorter by a third in another viewer. Also tabs vary in width in different viewers.

I'm assuming that different TPVs choose different fonts for notecards and, if that's true, then it should never happen. So TPV creators, please don't change the default notecard font from what's in the official viewer. If you've already changed it, please change it back. Let's have notecards displaying the same in all viewers.

Thank you.

 

[Kathrine Jansma]

Sounds like a misguided idea.

It would be more useful to have a setting to switch notecards to use a fixed width font for that. Trying to do ASCII art with proportional fonts just doesn't fly.

The font is part of the skin support, so anyone might tweak that to his or her liking. The style for the text editor just says "SansSerifSmall". This gets mapped to the actual font later, probably ending up with the DejaVu fonts in a default install. See https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer/src/master/indra/newview/skins/default/xui/en/fonts.xml this already lists different fallbacks for the default font.

So if the original Linden viewer already takes precautions to handle missing default font files, why should you expect to get the pixel exact font rendered as-is? If you want that, use a web page or screenshot.

Even if you use the same DejaVu font, there are version differences, e.g. (https://dejavu-fonts.github.io/NEWS.html)  so any TPV that depends on an OS package for the font might get different versions. Not to mention font rendering differences between different versions of Freetype, Windows, OS X, etc.

Various TPVs just use Lindens OLD default fonts:

https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer/commits/9ec432034dc3c45d7ce763eb02dae4cc7f6b8da8#chg-indra/newview/skins/default/xui/en/fonts.xml

So LL itself broke this "feature".

Not to mention the fact that it breaks user customization. IF i override a font explitly, for whatever reason, i want MY choice to show. Especially for something mundane like a text file. If layout is really important, plain text is often the wrong medium. PDF or other layout formats might be more appropriate, as can be seen by some product descriptions that simply link to a PDF outside for more fancy layouted instructions.

[Lucia Nightfire]

I'm still waiting on a monospace checkbox in notecards. And color options. The white background is harsh.

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-4706

[Quistess Alpha]

22 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

The white background is harsh.

The really annoying part is that notecards already have a dark background if you're not allowed to modify them. (unless that's a TPV thing?)

[Henri Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, Kathrine Jansma said:

Sounds like a misguided idea.

It would be more useful to have a setting to switch notecards to use a fixed width font for that. Trying to do ASCII art with proportional fonts just doesn't fly.

+1

1 hour ago, Kathrine Jansma said:

The font is part of the skin support, so anyone might tweak that to his or her liking.

One often ignored (advanced) feature of viewers is that you can actually override most of their skinning, by simply adding modified xml files in the proper directory (e.g. for the Cool VL Viewer under Linux in ~/.secondlife/skins/default/xui/en-us/ ; for other viewers you may need to replace ”.secondlife” with their own directory, and for v2+ viewers, you need to replace ”en-us” with ”en”).

This includes the fonts.xml file that you may then tweak and use with every viewer ”brand” on your system.

You could also modify the note card XUI definition file (skins/default/xui/en-us/floater_preview_notecard.xml for the Cool VL Viewer) to use a specific font (the Monospace one, for example, or any other mono-spaced font present on your system); again with the Cool VL Viewer as an example, you replace '<text_editor name=”text_edit” font=”SansSerif” ...>' with '<text_editor name=”text_edit” font=”Monospace” ...> line 39 of skins/default/xui/en-us/floater_preview_notecard.xml. Doing the same thing for all viewers you are using, you would get a consistent viewing of note cards over them all on your system.

But like Kathrine wrote, do not expect to do ASCII art in note cards and expect it to be properly displayed in everyone else's viewer(s).

1 hour ago, Kathrine Jansma said:

Various TPVs just use Lindens OLD default fonts

AFAIK, the Cool VL Viewer is the last viewer to use those (totally gorgeous) v1 fonts... Too bad, because DejaVu, Utopia & Co suck big time when compared to the old SL fonts... I made a lot of testing, when I considered moving away from the v1 fonts, but so far found no good replacement; the closest I found was Roboto condensed v1.00000 (2011 version).

Edited August 15, 2022 by Henri Beauchamp

[Monty Linden]

2 hours ago, Kathrine Jansma said:

Sounds like a misguided idea.

Too late, we're doing this.  NCML (Notecard Markup Language) with NCCSS (Notecard cascading style sheets).  Might have to deal with 2K38 first...

Humor aside, Markdown support is an interesting idea but might not have the power desired by the OP.

[Kathrine Jansma]

48 minutes ago, Monty Linden said:

Too late, we're doing this.  NCML & NCCSS

At least not XSLT and FOP. Sanity points saved. Or Docbook SGML & DSSSL... or TEI. Or groff/nroff?? Hmm, LaTeX for really nice typesetting?

Maybe just add a new inventory type "Rich Text Notecard", that can show pictures inline and has a few rich text features. Markdown or whatever is the current trend.

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

15 hours ago, Monty Linden said:

Humor aside, Markdown support is an interesting idea but might not have the power desired by the OP.

All I want is for the font in notecards to be the same in all viewers by default. I want to be able to write a heading in an instructions notecard and underline it with =, -, or whatever character, AND that the underlines are not expanded or shrunk (both usually massively) in different viewers.

If a person alters the font because their viewer has the option to do it, and often spoil the layout for themselves when reading and others when writing, it's their choice. I just think that the default font should be the same in all viewers. The improvement to SL would be very slight, but  it would still be an improvement.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Phil Deakins

[Henri Beauchamp]

17 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

All I want is for the font in notecards to be the same in all viewers by default.

Not likely to happen any time soon...

[Phil Deakins]

3 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

Not likely to happen any time soon...

Why?

[Love Zhaoying]

How about, just use Monospace (non-proportional font) for notecards in all viewers?

Brilliant!

Arrgh! Sorry, @Lucia Nightfire! I missed your "monospace" earlier.

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Love Zhaoying

[Ansariel Hiller]

Oooops then, I guess: https://vcs.firestormviewer.org/phoenix-firestorm/changeset/c85bcbd7de25f5aa252fd85d953341c5c79010fc

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

Why?

Different people like different things or have different needs.

 

[Lucia Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Ansariel Hiller said:

Oooops then, I guess: https://vcs.firestormviewer.org/phoenix-firestorm/changeset/c85bcbd7de25f5aa252fd85d953341c5c79010fc

Nice. Now if only something could be done about that harsh white background during editing, then it will all be complete.

Maybe notecard background and text color options in a new Preferences > Color > Notecard tab?

[Henri Beauchamp]

14 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Now if only something could be done about that harsh white background

Suggestion: reduce the brightness of your screen (mine is set at 18%). Today's monitors default to a way too bright picture, ruining the black level (that appears light grey as a result) and thus the exploitable contrast dynamic, and destroying your eyes.

[Henri Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, Ansariel Hiller said:

Oooops then, I guess: https://vcs.firestormviewer.org/phoenix-firestorm/changeset/c85bcbd7de25f5aa252fd85d953341c5c79010fc

Nice...

I got another suggestion. Add an option to make SL less of an eye sore, something like this, for example:

🤣

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

Suggestion: reduce the brightness of your screen (mine is set at 18%). Today's monitors default to a way too bright picture, ruining the black level (that appears light grey as a result) and thus the exploitable contrast dynamic, and destroying your eyes.

My brightness is down already.

Even still, I'm sure many would like to edit a notecard on a dark background with text color of their choosing.

A white background at any brightness can be harsh.

This is why dark modes exist or are optional on all manner of browsers, UIs or social media sites.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Lucia Nightfire

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

Nice...

I got another suggestion. Add an option to make SL less of an eye sore, something like this, for example:

🤣

Those amber monitors ROCK! Sooooo easy on the eyes!

[Henri Beauchamp]

5 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

This is why dark modes exist or are optional on all manner of browsers, UIs or social media sites.

The Cool VL Viewer got the Dark skin (by JB Craft): if the text background color is still too bright for you, you can edit it in skins/dark/colors_base.xml and place that edited file version in the override directory (as I explained in my post above)...

[Henri Beauchamp]

9 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Those amber monitors ROCK! Sooooo easy on the eyes!

Well, I was only half (ok, three quarters) joking, since you could indeed make the SL viewer screen amber and black, via a shader... 😛

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

The Cool VL Viewer got the Dark skin (by JB Craft): if the text background color is still too bright for you, you can edit it in skins/dark/colors_base.xml and place that edited file version in the override directory (as I explained in my post above)...

Nice, but I don't use Cool VL Viewer.

Also, requiring a user to edit xml files just to change a background color on a notecard versus through a parameter in Preferences is not intuitive or user friendly.

[Henri Beauchamp]

6 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Also, requiring a user to edit xml files just to change a background color on a notecard versus through a parameter in Preferences is not intuitive or user friendly.

This is not a ”requirement”, just a possibility offered to advanced and motivated users...

Requiring TPV developers to implement a gazillion configuration options is not wiser, especially when a new user will be faced with such an enormous amount of configuration options that they will get lost. Not to mention code bloat...

Edited August 16, 2022 by Henri Beauchamp

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

This is not a ”requirement”, just a possibility offered to advanced and motivated users...

Requiring TPV developers to implement a gazillion configuration options is not wiser, especially when a new user will be faced with such an enormous amount of configuration options that they will get lost. Not to mention code bloat...

IMO, editing a notecard is far more common for users than editing a script and Firestorm already offers color options for the latter.

Settings don't get lost in Firestorm when settings backups are a thing.

I'm sure your viewer has features that other viewers do not. Should I call those bloat as well if they are widely used?

[Henri Beauchamp]

10 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

IMO, editing a notecard is far more common for users than editing a script and Firestorm already offers color options for the latter.

I'm sure Firestorm (like almost all TPVs, mine included) offer an even more interesting option for long editing sessions: editing scripts and note cards in your preferred external editor program...

Also, please consider that your view on what is ”essential” (like the background color) is likely not what is essential to other users (the font choice is among those ”not so essential” things as well). Developers must make a choice between the features they implement, based on actual ”popularity” of the said features in regard to their free time (which is limited for unpaid Open Source developers)...

10 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

I'm sure your viewer has features that other viewers do not. Should I call those bloat as well if they are widely used?

There is always a trade off for new features in term of performances; even if the feature implementation is not in a hot code path, the larger the final binary, the more likely useful and critical parts of the viewer code will get evicted from the caches, and this is what I call ”bloat”.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Henri Beauchamp

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

Developers must make a choice between the features they implement, based on actual ”popularity” of the said features in regard to their free time (which is limited for unpaid Open Source developers)...

When we're talking about features that do not yet exist, they invest in things they assume will be popular once implemented, whether or not there is already public demand or industry standards.

Yes, there are many other factors involved, like time and scale of difficulty and if it conflicts with other areas of the code or TPV policies, etc.

I brought up color choices for notecard bg/fg since Ansariel apparently just devoted the time to implement font choices, so the timing and interest seemed good to me.

I wasn't asking the impossible like the ability to save notecards via LSL, which I wouldn't do myself, even if many in the build/script groups keep bringing it up as a wishlist item.