Better Way To Live?

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well I'm looking into the idea that it might not be human nature per se that is the problem, but rather a certain group of people (Western Civilization, to be exact) took a wrong turn somewhere and structured society in destructive ways.

Have you looked into the idea that non-Western civilizations/societies had similar problems and dynamics and you're just romanticizing the "other"? As far as Native Americans go, there were many peoples living their lives in widely different ways. The Niimiipuu/Nez Perce were probably one of the most admirable peoples on the continent, including the Europeans. I really doubt that you'd want to build society around the behavior of the Salish or the Kiowa though.

If you imagine, when someone expresses the very positive aspects of many Native cultures compared to Western Civilization, that they are adhering to the "noble savage" trope and simply romanticizing qualities that don't exist, it only shows you don't understand and appreciate the the very real positive qualities that actually do exist to a greater degree in many of these cultures. Or else you do know, and are imagining I don't? Or you are imagining I think all Native tribes were the same?  I already said I don't believe all were the same.

In any case, the cultures/worldviews of a great preponderance of Native tribes vs worldviews inherent in Western Civilization are very, very different.
I liken the Native perspective more to love, and the other we have created in Western Worlds (more so in America), to abuse -- an abuse of power that allows and encourages a percentage of people to exist on the bottom rungs of society and live without basic needs being met, needs that should be met in order for it to for it to be considered a civilized society in any sense of the word. Allowing children go to bed hungry and letting people die due to lack of medical care is about as far from civilized as one could get.

I described as best I could this attitude of love a ways back, to a poster who wondered what was so great about Natives....I'll copypaste it:

"I have read and experienced some amazing ways of relating to the world these tribes embody which is markedly absent from Western Civilization.
 
Probably the best way to describe the unusual ways of relating some tribes express is evident in the unusual connection to nature so profound that the word 'sacred' doesn't even do it justice -- nature is seen as a gift one gives thanks for when one's needs are supplied from it. Nature is also appreciated for what it is in and of itself instead of viewed in the spirit of entitlement where one feels they have a god-given right to conquer it in any way they please. We tend not to care for what we feel automatically entitled to, what we only consider as existing for our selfish concerns. And this lack of caring for nature, of feeling we are separate from and superior to it, will likely be our downfall as a species.

Some may say that 'sacred' is an old-fashioned notion, or a concept that belongs to the realm of poets and so not practical for our material reality. But if we had been relating to nature with such appreciation all along we would have cared and tended to it in an appropriate manner and attempted to live in balance with it in the ways Native Americans were so good at. We would have limited the destruction visited upon it. We would not be facing the 6th great extinction, which includes the destruction of humans as well. The global temperature is rising along with the seas, the storms are increasing in intensity, the fires are burning larger and hotter each year".

Western Civilization, above anything else, wants to grow, to consume, to use every last available resource to enable its expansion -- to "gobble everything up", as Morgan Freeman states. This is seen as the revered 'progress' it aspires to, this unnatural hoarding and excessive consumption so antithetical to most Native cultures. Western man is under the delusion that we can have infinite growth on a finite planet. It's like a cancer that won't stop until it dies, taking the host down with it. It's the consummate 'taker' society as described in Ishmael.
The humans of Western "Civilization" want to control everything -- they imagine themselves to be separate, superior, and above what they are actually embedded in. Anything beyond their individual self is something to use, to exploit. All is considered a 'thing' to conquer and is objectified, much as the stuffed and mounted Native woman was from the earlier poem.  Many even believe they are so superior to all of creation that they can cheat death. Such is the delusion of this worldview.

[Nick0678]

21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

What is a country that allows its citizens to die from diabetes due to their inability to pay for insulin -- insulin that is jacked up in price compared to other countries I might add, by Big Pharma. What is a country that allows children to go to bed hungry because their parents can't afford adequate food? 
I would liken that country to that lion who takes what he needs simply because he can, and doesn't much concern himself with anybody else around him. Indeed, the survival of the fittest pervades America, and its only getting worse.

1 sec now i am confused .. by Western Civilization you mean the United States? That is nothing more than just one country...

Edited November 4, 2021 by Nick0678

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Nick0678 said:

21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

What is a country that allows its citizens to die from diabetes due to their inability to pay for insulin -- insulin that is jacked up in price compared to other countries I might add, by Big Pharma. What is a country that allows children to go to bed hungry because their parents can't afford adequate food? 
I would liken that country to that lion who takes what he needs simply because he can, and doesn't much concern himself with anybody else around him. Indeed, the survival of the fittest pervades America, and its only getting worse.

1 sec now i am confused .. by Western Civilization you mean the United States? That is a country...

I see the U.S. as the largest expression of Western Civilization today...like the pinnacle or the end result of a process. The consummate expression of all the notions I described earlier as I defined Western Civilization.  Most people who live here came from Europe, or their ancestors did, in order to continue spreading this noxious culture of hoarding as they attempted to colonize the entire world.

[Theresa Tennyson]

21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

 

Apparently you revel in blaming those who are financially poor for bad choices and poor money-management skills instead of recognizing the very real problems inherent in the structure of society where money far too easily flows to the top. You see no structural problems within society itself that works to keep people down?

My oh my...

Could you explain how you determined they saw no structural problems, and how you determined "revel" was the best word for their behavior?

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

25 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

 

Apparently you revel in blaming those who are financially poor for bad choices and poor money-management skills instead of recognizing the very real problems inherent in the structure of society where money far too easily flows to the top. You see no structural problems within society itself that works to keep people down?

My oh my...

Could you explain how you determined they saw no structural problems, and how you determined "revel" was the best word for their behavior?

You don't think I've debated this person a hundred times before over a few years now, and know their views quite well?

[Nick0678]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

I see the U.S. as the largest expression of Western Civilization today...like the pinnacle or the end result of a process. The consummate expression of all the notions I described earlier as I defined Western Civilization.  Most people who live here came from Europe, or their ancestors did, in order to continue spreading this noxious culture of hoarding as they attempted to colonize the entire world.

Western civilization is everywhere on the planet. The United States of America are just a small part. 

Actually back to the roots of it aka Europe about 800 million people live on the principles and the ways of Western Civilization.

[Arielle Popstar]

32 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes those massive books have already been written

I'm not sure your own experience with money is something to apply to the entire world though. Our personal experience in anything is but one data point to use when evaluating matters -- it's important but creates skewed results when we don't consider a larger picture. I'm happy you developed money management skills and curtailed your bad shopping habits though.

Apparently you revel in blaming those who are financially poor for bad choices and poor money-management skills instead of recognizing the very real problems inherent in the structure of society where money far too easily flows to the top. You see no structural problems within society itself that works to keep people down?
Honestly, I don't know how you can ignore all the factors that benefits those with power and that create poverty in those who have less power. Our society is structured in a way that squeezes the most that it can from those at the bottom -- wages have not kept up with inflation so that the wealthy can direct more of the money derived from people's efforts to themselves.

I'm not denying the need for personal responsibility in all this -- everyone should get up and do the very best they can with any day. But there are complex factors to consider. I mean, I could surely eat only beans for half the month because I might run out of money in retirement, but then I might die before I'd need that money, and so should I deny myself now? I could have worked more hours and neglected my child even if that would mean she wasn't as psychologically healthy in the future through such neglect.
Those examples are to say that people sometimes have to make hard choices, and we shouldn't forget that in our judgement of them.
There are mentally ill people, physically ill people, people who aren't so intelligent, people with PTSD, people who were victims of devastating abuse, people with bad parental role models -- all of these conditions make it very hard to hold the types of jobs necessary to accrue wealth. You don't see this reality though, and blame it all on irresponsible people who can't manage their money?

Realizing the problems which cause poverty doesn't take away from the hard work that SOME wealthy people engaged in to get where they are, and it doesn't take away the fact that you were able to improve your lot in life to a degree through your own efforts. But when we examine the reasons for obtaining wealth, especially extreme wealth, we often find the main cause is simply luck -- the wealthy were often born with high intelligence, for example, or had exceptional parenting that fostered the ability to learn, and the money needed to obtain the best education.  Much of wealth is inherited, and has nothing to do with merit -- it's simply passed on from generation to generation.

Poverty is a complex problem and can't be reduced to only a lack of personal responsibility. Your analysis is too simplistic -- I wouldn't mind so much except it's an analysis that blames and degrades others, and so I get upset and must confront. Again, this kind of analysis is abusive to others, and this is why I tend to get upset with your views. It is a worldview most often displayed by those who are threatened by the fact that there are forces outside their control, forces that can't be defined in the black & white terms needed to control it easily, if its existence is admitted to at all. But your need to control, your denial of reality, harms others.
I wish you would stop and think how this kind of analysis might feel to someone who is trying the best they can yet suffering, and as they suffer due to circumstances beyond their control they get the double whammy of blaming them for that very suffering. Blaming the victim is an egregious dynamic, a kind of gaslighting mindfork nobody should have to endure.

Poverty is not a simple matter -- there is no single cause of poverty. Rather, there are multiple causes that are linked and compounding. Poverty can strike during an unexpected crisis: a serious health problem, job loss, or divorce. These crises can be particularly debilitating when compounded by other risk factors such as low education, limited skills training, lack of savings, or lack of family supports. Poverty can result from personal struggle – physical, mental, or emotional – and many people experiencing poverty are faced with a lack of emotional, psychological or financial support. Poverty also exists because of bigger systems: changing market demand for skills or labor, gaps in social safety nets, the high costs of education and health, or because of systemic discrimination. Poverty exists for all these interlocking reasons and is compounded by the interaction of causes and effects.

Can you condense that into one paragraph? These word salads make my head hurt.

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Nick0678 said:

11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I see the U.S. as the largest expression of Western Civilization today...like the pinnacle or the end result of a process. The consummate expression of all the notions I described earlier as I defined Western Civilization.  Most people who live here came from Europe, or their ancestors did, in order to continue spreading this noxious culture of hoarding as they attempted to colonize the entire world.

Western civilization is everywhere on the planet. The United States of America are just a small part. 

Actually back to the roots of it aka Europe about 800 million people live on the principles and the ways of Western Civilization.

Yes, and I'm just claiming that there are some very bad aspects to this civilization that we need to become aware of and change, lest climate change take us down the tubes.   I'm not saying Western Civilization is All bad btw, I'm only saying there are very lovely aspects to Native cultures we lost along the way, and I think relearning these has the best chance of saving us from utter destruction.

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Can you condense that into one paragraph? These word salads make my head hurt.

Whenever I encounter a text I can't understand well due to its complexity I find that reading it several times helps.  I had to do that with the recent article I posted about Tribes.

Or you can just call it word-salad and take none of the responsibility you like to accuse others of not taking, and move on, I guess.

[Nick0678]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

Yes, and I'm just claiming that there are some very bad aspects to this civilization that we need to become aware of and change, lest climate change take us down the tubes.   I'm not saying Western Civilization is All bad btw, I'm only saying there are very lovely aspects to Native cultures we lost along the way, and I think relearning these has the best chance of saving us from utter destruction.

Sorry i can't follow you. How your healthcare system works has nothing to do with civilization.

In some countries it is capitalistic and inothers it is socialistic, if yours is not good tell your president and the rest politicians to change it.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes, and I'm just claiming that there are some very bad aspects to this civilization that we need to become aware of and change, lest climate change take us down the tubes.   I'm not saying Western Civilization is All bad btw, I'm only saying there are very lovely aspects to Native cultures we lost along the way, and I think relearning these has the best chance of saving us from utter destruction.

I did some research last night to augment other research in past and I think this article sums up in part what some of these old tribes were up to even before they were colonized. Your romanticization of that type of lifestyle leaves a lot out I think and borders on fairy stories. Though this is about tribes on one continent, I have read about similar customs and cultures for various tribes across the world and no doubt we ourselves were also doing the same thing till we got civilized.

___________________________________________________________________________________

Violence levels are evidenced for thousands of years into pre-history.

Paleopathologist Stephen Webb in 1995 published his analysis of 4500 individuals’ bones from mainland Australia going back 50,000 years. (Priceless bone collections at the time were being officially handed over to Aboriginal communities for re-burial, which stopped follow-up studies).[15] Webb found highly disproportionate rates of injuries and fractures to women’s skulls, with the injuries suggesting deliberate attack and often attacks from behind, perhaps in domestic squabbles. In the tropics, for example, female head-injury frequency was about 20-33%, versus 6.5-26% for males.

The most extreme results were on the south coast, from Swanport and Adelaide, with female cranial trauma rates as high as 40-44% — two to four times the rate of male cranial trauma. In desert and south coast areas, 5-6% of female skulls had three separate head injuries, and 11-12% had two injuries...........

From 1788, British and French arrivals were shocked at local misogyny. First Fleeter Watkin Tench noticed a young woman’s head “covered by contusions, and mangled by scars”. She also had a spear wound above the left knee caused by a man who dragged her from her home to r*pe her. Tench wrote, “They are in all respects treated with savage barbarity; condemned not only to carry the children, but all other burthens, they meet in return for submission only with blows, kicks and every other mark of brutality.”[18]

He also wrote, “When an Indian [sic] is provoked by a woman, he either spears her, or knocks her down on the spot; on this occasion he always strikes on the head, using indiscriminately a hatchet, a club, or any other weapon, which may chance to be in his hand.”

Marine Lt. William Collins wrote, “We have seen some of these unfortunate beings with more scars upon their shorn heads, cut in every direction, than could be well distinguished or counted.” [19]

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In a tribal scenario, I think much of it becomes a every man/woman for themselves except where it impinges directly on the group as a whole. I'll stick with civilization thank you very much.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Arielle Popstar

[Theresa Tennyson]

17 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes, and I'm just claiming that there are some very bad aspects to this civilization that we need to become aware of and change, lest climate change take us down the tubes.   I'm not saying Western Civilization is All bad btw, I'm only saying there are very lovely aspects to Native cultures we lost along the way, and I think relearning these has the best chance of saving us from utter destruction.

You started this thread talking about "civilization" and "tribes." It turns out you're talking about the United States and certain tribes you haven't clearly identified. Meanwhile, the fact that there have been people in the European-founded culture of the United States throughout its history who have shown reverence for the land gets vanishingly short shrift.

Do you see why some people might be confused and/or take exception to what you're saying?

[Luna Bliss]

5 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

15 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes, and I'm just claiming that there are some very bad aspects to this civilization that we need to become aware of and change, lest climate change take us down the tubes.   I'm not saying Western Civilization is All bad btw, I'm only saying there are very lovely aspects to Native cultures we lost along the way, and I think relearning these has the best chance of saving us from utter destruction.

Sorry i can't follow you. How your healthcare system works has nothing to do with civilization.

In some countries it is capitalistic and inothers it is socialistic, if yours is not good tell your president and the rest politicians to change it.

It has everything to do with civilization.  Political systems and economic systems are just the practical ways we achieve the goals of any civilization.

Crucial, for this discussion, is whether we believe in the 'might makes right' or 'survival of the fittest' notions for society, or whether we view our society more like a community that doesn't let strength be the deciding factor in how the goods of society are distributed.

Another crucial component...is perpetual growth...infinite growth on a finite planet...advisable.

[Ceka Cianci]

28 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes, and I'm just claiming that there are some very bad aspects to this civilization that we need to become aware of and change, lest climate change take us down the tubes.   I'm not saying Western Civilization is All bad btw, I'm only saying there are very lovely aspects to Native cultures we lost along the way, and I think relearning these has the best chance of saving us from utter destruction.

This was really good and pretty much goes into what would need to be done, which we know will never be done, so we'll probably be undone.. hehehe

If you have netflix it's on there now, if you haven't seen it already.

 

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

28 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes, and I'm just claiming that there are some very bad aspects to this civilization that we need to become aware of and change, lest climate change take us down the tubes.   I'm not saying Western Civilization is All bad btw, I'm only saying there are very lovely aspects to Native cultures we lost along the way, and I think relearning these has the best chance of saving us from utter destruction.

You started this thread talking about "civilization" and "tribes." It turns out you're talking about the United States and certain tribes you haven't clearly identified. Meanwhile, the fact that there have been people in the European-founded culture of the United States throughout its history who have shown reverence for the land gets vanishingly short shrift.

Do you see why some people might be confused and/or take exception to what you're saying?

I think you're being pedantic.

If there is a strong tendency in Western Civilization to embody certain characteristics, there's nothing wrong with talking about it in general terms as if it includes most people. Even so, I usually say "most" or "not all" when describing.

If so many Native tribes embody so many of these positive characteristics it's perfectly fine to talk about them in a general way as well. And again, often I've said "not all tribes".

An example....some say we live in a culture of gun violence in America. Does that mean everybody shoots guns?  No, but we certainly have more gun owners here than in other countries, and there are so many shootings at schools and businesses this year that I can't keep track of them.   So yes, we live in a culture of gun violence in America.

Why don't you add some of your opinions on the thoughts I've expressed instead of being so nitpicky?

[Luna Bliss]

8 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

This was really good and pretty much goes into what would need to be done, which we know will never be done, so we'll probably be undone.. hehehe

If you have netflix it's on there now, if you haven't seen it already.

 

Thanks, I'll watch this. I saw his speech at the climate conference a couple days ago and he did good, and it's so cool to sit across from him in VR and handle the bones he sits out....I really feel like I met him!  LOL

[Ceka Cianci]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Thanks, I'll watch this. I saw his speech at the climate conference a couple days ago and he did good, and it's so cool to sit across from him in VR and handle the bones he sits out....I really feel like I met him!  LOL

Imagine all the stories he tells his grand kids and great grand kids and just kids in general..

I'd be like a kid with my ears glued letting time pass without a care just listening to his tales all day long..

Well traveled elders that are good story tellers just glue me to the chair..

[Nick0678]

8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It has everything to do with civilization.  Political systems and economic systems are just the practical ways we achieve the goals of any civilization.

I don't know Luna.. I 've heard of the health care problems that U.S citizens have to deal with but never heard any of them joining an Amazonian tribe to have their diabetes problem cured.  Tell your politicians to change your healthcare system like we did and you 'll be fine.

[Theresa Tennyson]

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

 

Why don't you add some of your opinions on the thoughts I've expressed instead of being so nitpicky?

Because I don't usually feel other people need to hear my opinions.

[Nick0678]

2 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Imagine all the stories he tells his grand kids and great grand kids and just kids in general..

I'd be like a kid with my ears glued letting time pass without a care just listening to his tales all day long..

Well traveled elders that are good story tellers just glue me to the chair..

Sir David is a fine dude.. Check this vid.

 

[Alwin Alcott]

7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

 there's nothing wrong with talking about it in general terms as if it includes most people.

but it IS wrong

comparing US people and EU is like comparing eals with goldfish .. the only thing they have in common is that they swim. Further, socialy, religiously, lifestyle, earnings, living, and not to forger mentality( and a lot more) are totally different.
You might see it as the spike of development, it's in fact the opposite.

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

 

Why don't you add some of your opinions on the thoughts I've expressed instead of being so nitpicky?

Because I don't usually feel other people need to hear my opinions.

Well when you inject your frequent 'gotcha' traps into what people state they believe, showing them they're wrong, you are interjecting your opinion right?

[Silent Mistwalker]

Not sure if I should laugh or scream in outrage. 

Your tribe is your extended family. Let that sink in. Tribe is family. Now you might have an inkling as to what tribal actually means.

The elephant is in the room and none of you even thought to ask it.

Mitákuye Oyás’iŋ el lechangleska wichoni. We are all related in this circle of life.

[Luna Bliss]

7 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Imagine all the stories he tells his grand kids and great grand kids and just kids in general..

I'd be like a kid with my ears glued letting time pass without a care just listening to his tales all day long..

Well traveled elders that are good story tellers just glue me to the chair..

Indeed.

I'm going to have to visit him again if I can find that place in VR.

I was on a bombing mission in WW2 a couple days ago, flying over Germany. Very creepy, so real. I mean, I've read stories describing the experience, but there's nothing like actually experiencing it in 3D!

Maybe there is hope for VR -- to increase empathy.

[Luna Bliss]

7 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

18 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

 there's nothing wrong with talking about it in general terms as if it includes most people.

but it IS wrong

comparing US people and EU is like comparing eals with goldfish .. the only thing they have in common is that they swim. Further, socialy, religiously, lifestyle, earnings, living, and not to forger mentality( and a lot more) are totally different.
You might see it as the spike of development, it's in fact the opposite.

Scholars would disagree with you.

There are similarities between the EU and the US, and they are very destructive ones.

Pinnacle of the process (what you're now calling "spike of development")...is not good when one thinks the process is bad.  And I've never ever said it's a good development.