The Darwin Spin Off

[RunawayBunny]

12 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Things may be different in your country but there are still skilled jobs here that don't require a college degree.  Somewhere along the way, people began to think working hard was somehow less desirable.  Sweat and hard work.  It's what most countries were built on.

You are probably right.. we are different. Apprenticeship exist almost every country with limited job availability (in here).

Good to know actually those jobs useful in some countries, does not bring any suitable income in my country (unless you are okay with work for food grade income).

[FairreLilette]

31 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

  My husband spent 4 years doing so.  Work while you learn.

Oh, I see what you mean.

If only they could set those up with some high school kids so they have something to go towards once they graduate if they are not going to attend the really expensive colleges of course.  I mean the ones without rich parents or are so gifted they got a scholarship to a really amazing college.

Which reminds, sports...yes, sports in this country for high school kids can go a long way for them when scouts go to high schools to watch them play and it turns into a career.  But, those are still the gifted.  I was speaking in generalities in my previous posts.  I couldn't know a case-by-case basis with every high school student in America.  But, for the majority, high school prepares kids for a fast food restaurant or equivalent whereas other countries have better.   I'm generalizing as I cannot go student by student.

Edited April 7, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Ceka Cianci]

9 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Oh, I see what you mean.

If only they could set those up with some high school kids so they have something to go towards once they graduate if they are not going to attend the really expensive colleges of course.  I mean the ones without rich parents or are so gifted they got a scholarship to a really amazing college.

Which reminds, sports...yes, sports in this country for high school kids can go a long way for them when scouts go to high schools to watch them play and it turns into a career.  But, those are still the gifted.  I was speaking in generalities in my previous posts.  I couldn't know a case-by-case basis with every high school student in America.  But, for the majority, high school prepares kids for a fast food restaurant or equivalent whereas other countries have better.   I'm generalizing as I cannot go student by student.

Careers or future in high school is usually discussed with the Guidance Councilor.

They usually help with which classes are best for what the student is wanting to do..

[Luna Bliss]

On 4/5/2021 at 12:50 PM, FairreLilette said:

Auto shop?  We had auto shop out here in California, so I'm not sure which "shop" you mean exactly?  Auto shop is a good idea to build on and just about exactly where I am with how schools could improve in America - build on the "shop" model.  One pretty much has to go into the military or pay student loans to learn skills in America today. 

Most of the trade jobs as well as jobs in other areas require significant education beyond high school, and this education can be obtained at a typical college or via an apprenticeship and on-the-job training specific to any type of trade. I just don't see how this training would be feasible for high school -- it would be too costly to set up training for the myriad of possible jobs at each and every high school, and on-the-job training for the trades works best anyway.

Better to look at education beyond high school to solve this problem, whether in the trades or a typical college -- how to make both avenues more affordable.
Besides, more than vocational training, high schools should inculcate habits of mind like curiosity, skeptical questioning, enthusiasm, creativity, patience, and self-discipline as an underpinning for future goals. These are the most important qualities to succeed in any job a student might acquire through further training in the trades or via the traditional college route.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

10 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

10 hours ago, RunawayBunny said:

Some of those jobs died already and many of them will die eventually.

Trading not always reliable way of income it has ups and downs and requires capital to startup.

Edit: Things might be different in your country it is my viewpoint from my country.

You're incorrect in many areas.  The apprenticeship programs for electricians and carpenters also requires in school classes usually through the union.  My husband spent 4 years doing so.  Work while you learn.  Homes and businesses are still built by skilled carpenters.  As is the wiring and plumbing in those homes and businesses.

Things may be different in your country but there are still skilled jobs here that don't require a college degree.  Somewhere along the way, people began to think working hard was somehow less desirable.  Sweat and hard work.  It's what most countries were built on.

While it's true there are good-paying jobs to be had through training in the trades and so education acquired through a traditional college is not always necessary, I'm not sure so many of these jobs are available as you're imagining.
Take, for example, all the manufacturing jobs that left the U.S. and went to other countries, or the increasing automation which eliminates so many avenues for workers. There's only so many plumbers and construction jobs any area of the country can accommodate and retraining for older people especially who lost their manufacturing job is not always possible, and so we need to somehow make up for all these jobs that have disappeared in recent years.

I can't get behind your statement that "somewhere along the way, people began to think working hard was somehow less desirable.  Sweat and hard work.  It's what most countries were built on".  Where did you get the idea that people in the U.S. became lazy? Now I hear a lot of conservatives with their excessive focus on individualism blaming the worker for their plight, saying workers are just not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps enough (as if we just need to whip them into shape), but I think we need to look at changes in society as contributing more to the problems of employment today. Even if the psychological make-up of individuals has changed to a degree we still need to find out what has changed within society to cause this -- there has to be a cause beyond workers suddenly not liking hard, physical work causing an epidemic of drug addiction and depression.

I'm not against self-determination and self-responsibility -- I just don't think it paints the complete picture of this issue. So "how is society different today vs times past", is the primary question we should focus on. And tying all this to human evolution could be interesting too.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Ceka Cianci]

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Most of the trade jobs require significant education beyond high school, and this education can be obtained at a typical college or via an apprenticeship and on-the-job training specific to any type of trade. I just don't see how this training would be feasible for high school -- it would be too costly to set up training for the myriad of possible jobs at each and every high school, and on-the-job training works best anyway.

Better to look at education beyond high school to solve this problem, whether in the trades or a typical college -- how to make both avenues more affordable.
Besides, more than vocational training, high schools should inculcate habits of mind like curiosity, skeptical questioning, enthusiasm, creativity, patience, self-discipline as an underpinning for future goals. These are the most important qualities to succeed in any job a student might acquire through further training in the trades or via the traditional college route.

We have OJT at the plant I work at, plus will have an employee schooled and getting paid for it..

There is a 21 year old guy that came in when he was 18 fresh out of highschool.. Even when he was in the temp service and just hired on as a trimmer, he started to help out the techs and setup guys working on the machines when they would go down..

Even before he was hired on he was he was doing proccess tech jobs and setup jobs, fixing water leaks and hydrolic leaks..

He's 21 years old now and has been hired in for 2 1/2 years if I remember right.. He's right now in our engineer apprentice program..

They will be sending him to other states to look at setups of other machines, plus sending him to Ohio for schooling, with  a place to stay as well as a paycheck.

When he got there ,he hit the ground running.. There are a bunch of stories like that at our plant with people coming right out of high school..

We just don't have enough fast food places in our town to  make it worth being a curriculum at our high school..

hehehe

Someone has to replace the ones retiring.. hehehe

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

We have OJT at the plant I work at, plus will have an employee schooled and getting paid for it..

There is a 21 year old guy that came in when he was 18 fresh out of highschool.. Even when he was in the temp service and just hired on as a trimmer, he started to help out the techs and setup guys working on the machines when they would go down..

Even before he was hired on he was he was doing proccess tech jobs and setup jobs, fixing water leaks and hydrolic leaks..

He's 21 years old now and has been hired in for 2 1/2 years if I remember right.. He's right now in our engineer apprentice program..

They will be sending him to other states to look at setups of other machines, plus sending him to Ohio for schooling, with  a place to stay as well as a paycheck.

When he got there ,he hit the ground running.. There are a bunch of stories like that at our plant with people coming right out of high school..

We just don't have enough fast food places in our town to  make it worth being a curriculum at our high school..

hehehe

Someone has to replace the ones retiring.. hehehe

Good to hear of these success stories.

I'm curious though what would happen to your community if your manufacturing plant went overseas or to Mexico. And do you feel pretty secure that it won't?

[Ceka Cianci]

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Good to hear of these success stories.

I'm curious though what would happen to your community if your manufacturing plant went overseas or to Mexico. And do you feel pretty secure that it won't?

I feel really secure, plus they already have some other locations around the world..The U.S Locations are their base.

They haven't left yet even when the others did.. In fact the company that owns the business now, was the customer that kept our plant doors opened during the banking crisis..

Our plant was one of the few that was still running..

The closest thing we had to a total shut down ever, was when things were shutting down for covid last spring..

Even then first shift was still running and machining.. I was only out for 6 weeks before they called me and 11 others back for third shift.. 2nd shift , which nobody like them .. hehehe They were still out for like 2 months after I got back.. hehehehe

Soon as they got back the place went from nice and clean to ,w3ell looks like 2nd shift is back in town, the place looked like someone left the kids in charge. hehehe

Our new owners are pouring money into our plant right now.. I even got a promotion and a raise a couple weeks back..

Even the new hires are 3 dollars higher than what the old company was starting people out at.. Heck the temps make more than what the old company was hiring at..

[FairreLilette]

37 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

it would be too costly to set up training for the myriad of possible jobs at each and every high school, and on-the-job training for the trades works best anyway.

Yeah I know, I thought of the same too as far as expense.  But, what about programs that help set up older teens, say 16, 17 and connect them with the work to learn programs.  They could begin to qualify for said work to learn program in high school is more the reason I see a need.  It does sound like quite an undertaking though, plus Biden's infrastructure jobs plan I believe is for ten years and it's not like the jobs created from the (this) infrastructure bill will be here forever but rather about 10 years.  

Sorry, this went off topic.  I suggested (not Dawkin's btw) that kids need more practical things to learn rather than what Dawkin's suggested in that they learn about other religions in school.  

Edited April 7, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

39 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

it would be too costly to set up training for the myriad of possible jobs at each and every high school, and on-the-job training for the trades works best anyway.

Yeah I know, I thought of the same too as far as expense.  But, what about programs that help set up older teens, say 16, 17 and connect them with the work to learn programs.  They could begin to qualify for said work to learn program in high school is more the reason I see a need.  It does sound like quite an undertaking though, plus Biden's infrastructure jobs plan I believe is for ten years and it's not the jobs created from the infrastructure bill will be here forever.  

That sounds like a good plan (and I think some high schools do have such programs) if they could identify a teenager who knew he would not go to traditional college, and if that teenager could actually decide what he wanted to work at.  Much better than just leaving them to flounder after leaving high school.

[Luna Bliss]

14 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I feel really secure, plus they already have some other locations around the world..The U.S Locations are their base.

They haven't left yet even when the others did.. In fact the company that owns the business now, was the customer that kept our plant doors opened during the banking crisis..

I wonder why they chose to keep U.S. plants. Did they have a motivation other than profit, like the 'wellness' of the community? Or is the method for their type of business actually more profitable by keeping some plants in the U.S.?

[Ceka Cianci]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

That sounds like a good plan (and I think some high schools do have such programs) if they could identify a teenager who knew he would not go to traditional college, and if that teenager could actually decide what he wanted to work at.  Much better than just leaving them to flounder after leaving high school.

A lot of kids in high school are already thinking about what they want to do or be even before their last year..

I hear diesel mechanic a lot, which is a really good paying job. also engineer I hear a lot as well.. A lot of people that are working while they are out of school are taking classes for that..

Many want to get into maintenance, which is another really good paying job..  A lot of the younger people i talk to have some sort of plan they are working on.. Some don't go through with it, but  after talking with so many, I can usually tell their chances of that..

I've been interviewing so many for years now that I can tell who is saying it just to say it  or who is really looking to go there..

I have a lot of faith in our youth from what I see every day.. There are a lot of really smart kids out there with good heads on their shoulders..

[Ceka Cianci]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I wonder why they chose to keep U.S. plants. Did they have a motivation other than profit, like the 'wellness' of the community? Or is the method for their type of business actually more profitable by keeping some plants in the U.S.?

I'm not really positive on why, other than, It's the auto industry and they've been a part of it for a long long time.. it could be that it's about made in the U.S.A. also.. I really don't know to be honest..hehehehe

They've been around for forever and a day, So part of it could be they have old deals going on, kind of like what our company had with metal..

Nobody was getting metal at the prices we were..