The Darwin Spin Off

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 minute ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

My work here is done...

That's a way of putting it...

[FairreLilette]

25 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

How would a child know what job they desired unless they had a broad education in the sciences, philosophy, psychology, literature, music, and all the liberal arts courses taught in colleges?

Well, I don't think 16, 17, 18 is a "child".  I was speaking more of high school.  American schools don't prepare kids for anything other than working at a fast food place, going into the armed forces to get an education or taking upon 20+ years at least of student debt for some college if the person is not born to rich parents who can send them to college.   I think American schools need to teach something practical.  Many other countries, the kids go to school but they are with a private tutor until bed-time.  Other countries have children that are just far, far more educated than America.  Our 18 year olds come out with the education to work at a fast food place as the vast majority.  

Edited April 5, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Ceka Cianci]

This movie just showed up on my youtube recommendations.. I can watch the whole thing for free.. hehehe

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with looking at the videos in this thread, since I haven't done any Evolution searches in quite awhile that i can recall..

So yea, Thanks for the free movie guys!! \o/

hehehehe

 

[Luna Bliss]

10 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

34 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

How would a child know what job they desired unless they had a broad education in the sciences, philosophy, psychology, literature, music, and all the liberal arts courses taught in colleges?

Well, I don't think 16, 17, 18 is a "child".  I was speaking more of high school.  American schools don't prepare kids for anything other than working at a fast food place, going into the armed forced to get an education or taking upon 20+ years at least of student debt for some college if the person is not born to rich parents who can send them to college.   I think American schools need to teach something practical.  Many other countries, the kids go to school but they are with a private tutor until bed-time.  Other countries have children that are just far, far more educated than America.  Our 18 year olds come out with the education to work at a fast food place as the vast majority.  

Perhaps a class in High School describing in detail career options so a teenager could begin considering where they want to work?  I don't recall ever having such a class in High School.

One big problem is that 'service jobs' make up such a large percentage of jobs available today, and the pay is poor. 

* In other words, what good does it do to educate people for jobs that don't exist?  I see this as the area to blame, and not so much the fault of schools.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

‘If  I am right, that the story of  the Western world is one of  increasing left hemisphere domination, we would not expect insight to be the key note. Instead, we would expect a sort of  insouciant optimism, the sleepwalker whistling a happy tune as he ambles towards the abyss.’
    Iain McGilchrist, The Master and his Emissary

[FairreLilette]

39 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Perhaps a class in High School describing in detail career options so a teenager could begin considering where they want to work?  I don't recall ever having such a class in High School.

One big problem is that 'service jobs' make up such a large percentage of jobs available today, and the pay is poor. 

* In other words, what good does it do to educate people for jobs that don't exist?  I see this as the area to blame, and not so much the fault of schools.

It's interesting to note that many towns, villages, societies have always revolved around food aside from a few other common occupations - silversmith, cobbler, candlestick maker, tailor for some examples.  But, still the crux of the whole village was it's food.  So, there is no easy way to get around the need for jobs in the foods services sector nor the necessity of them.

My saying that schools should teach more practical things was really in response to Richard Dawkin's belief that other gods, religions and/or mythological gods should be taught in schools.  I don't see that as helping kids plus most kids are savvy enough to hear things from friends or older siblings or to go to a library if they are interested in learning about those things.  

It's incorrect dogmas and twisted doctrines that need to addressed at the root and not by simply introducing the mythological belief of Zeus as some kind of cure-all for all the twisted dogma taught by organized religion.  

Dawkin's also concluded faith to be the biggest evil on earth.  Now, if he had said twisted dogmatic faiths, I might have agreed with him.  

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Love Zhaoying]

53 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

American schools don't prepare kids for anything other than working at a fast food place, going into the armed forces to get an education or taking upon 20+ years at least of student debt for some college if the person is not born to rich parents who can send them to college. 

You left out working at Wal-Mart, just sayin'.

[FairreLilette]

10 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

You left out working at Wal-Mart, just sayin'.

I'd never leave out Walmart, so it's written there between the lines.  LOL

Actually, when my ex-husband's health insurance began to charge us nearly 700 hundred dollars a month, these words came out of my mouth to my Mom "Walmart saved my life".  If it weren't for Walmart's excellent prices for food, we never would have made it - having to go from my ex-husband's employers once paying for his health care to it constantly creeping up until it was near 1000 dollars a month for health care.  I still believe Walmart saved my life.  I love Walmart.

[Ceka Cianci]

We get young people fresh out of high school every week.. I can't remember ever having McDonald's classes in high school.

Most of the kids I know are already working while they are in High school and have been since they were old enough to start helping out..

First thing a lot of them do here even if they are going to college or taking some classes is hit the temp services to get on somewhere if they aren't on somewhere already..

Summer time we get a lot of high school kids that come through just for summer jobs.. Maybe it's a thing for places where there are a lot of fast food places that schools do that..

[Luna Bliss]

46 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

My saying that schools should teach more practical things was really in response to Richard Dawkin's belief that other gods, religions and/or mythological gods should be taught in schools.  I don't see that as helping kids plus most kids are savvy enough to hear things from friends or older siblings or to go to a library if they are interested in learning about those things.  

It's incorrect dogmas and twisted doctrines that need to addressed at the root and not by simply introducing the mythological belief of Zeus as some kind of cure-all for all the twisted dogma taught by organized religion.  

Dawkin's also concluded faith to be the biggest evil on earth.  Now, if he had said twisted dogmatic faiths, I might have agreed with him.  

Comparative Religion is a valuable subject to study, whether in high school or college. Through the study of the world's religions we learn about other cultures, their psychology, and the reasons why various parts of the world are the way they are.
By providing an opportunity to learn about religious beliefs we are not saying one or the other religion is true, but only pointing out the reality of people's beliefs.
https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/comparative-religion

I think Dawkins simply makes the case that Comparative Religion should not be taught as a Science in the way that Creationists want. Science is about making theories and testing them, and that would not be possible when we consider testing Zeus...lol.

[FairreLilette]

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Comparative Religion is a valuable subject to study, whether in high school or college. Through the study of the world's religions we learn about other cultures, their psychology, and the reasons why various parts of the world are the way they are.
By providing an opportunity to learn about religious beliefs we are not saying one or the other religion is true, but only pointing out the reality of people's beliefs.
https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/comparative-religion

I think Dawkins simply makes the case that Comparative Religion should not be taught as a Science in the way that Creationists want. Science is about making theories and testing them, and that would not be possible when we consider testing Zeus...lol.

Yeah, I know I'm kind of comparing apples and oranges and I can assume there is some value...but I had been thinking this past year or so that American schools really aren't equipping our kids with much actual valuable skills out of high school.  For a good job, in America, one must at 18+ either join the armed services or pay out the ying and the yang for student loans that will exceed decades of interest.  I know several people still paying student loans that they have been paying for 20 years now, so the debts are going into 20+ years of interest.  How this could be better, I couldn't come up with any answers.   It is what it is, I guess.  So, with Dawkin's suggestion though, kids will know about other religions but still mostly be equipped for working fast food or Walmart or equivalents of those, perhaps retail clerk.  

[Luna Bliss]

23 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

So, with Dawkin's suggestion though, kids will know about other religions but still mostly be equipped for working fast food or Walmart or equivalents of those, perhaps retail clerk.  

Kids learn about all sorts of things in school, including religion. Often by learning about all the facets of the world we begin to get a sense of how we'd like to contribute to that world. How could we ever know what we'd like to work at if we have no knowledge of the world?

I agree that vocational training should be added to the curriculum in late high school years, and often it is in some schools (shop, for example). But this does not have to mean there's anything wrong with learning about religion or any other subjects.

* And all this has nothing to do with "Dawkin's suggestion". The reality of other subjects outside of vocational training being taught in schools has always been there -- this is not some novel suggestion by him. The reason he mentions it is because he wants subjects such as religion taught outside of a Science class.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Madelaine McMasters]

45 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

I agree, races developed. And then, what? Why no new races once we had the major ones we're all well aware of?

Gonna ramble...

Though it's probably not germane to the discussion, is there a hint of tautology here? We sorta can't be aware of "races" we're not aware of, right? The idea of using skin color or facial features to classify the entirety of a human is easy, natural, specious, and ignores potentially more important changes taking place out of sight.

As Theresa notes, the ever increasing geographic mobility of humans reduces the probability of expression of recessive traits. Could the expected mass migration of (dark) humans away from equatorial regions foster sufficient commingling that skin color becomes a useless tool for discrimination?

This same mass migration increases the size of the gene pool in which mutations get the chance to occur and compete. I can imagine things, quite unrecognizable to the naked eye, proving more powerful differentiators over time. Migration has been used to explain punctuated equilibrium.

Way back in my childhood, I was introduced to the idea that viruses can sometimes insert their genetic material into the chromosomes of the host (retroviruses like HIV). If that happens in an egg or sperm, you have an endogenous retrovirus, who's genetic material can be inherited and could be a substantial factor in our evolution. Approximately nine percent of the human genome seems to have arisen from endogenous retroviruses. Way to go, little buggers!

Imagine a future in which people wander the planet, observing each other through AR glasses that perform some kind of "discrimination" based on 23andMe data. Factor in a potential to actually do something about those genetics (gene drive, prime editing, coming to a basement near you! ;-) and we're looking at a new kind of punctuation.

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

We sorta can't be aware of "races" we're not aware of, right? The idea of using skin color or facial features to classify the entirety of a human is easy, natural, specious, and ignores potentially more important changes taking place out of sight.

Are we past feeling bumps on the head, yet?

[Love Zhaoying]

9 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

perform some kind of "discrimination" based on 23andMe data. Factor in a potential to actually do something about those genetics (gene drive, prime editing, coming to a basement near you! ;-) and we're looking at a new kind of punctuation.

Sounds like Gattica.

[Madelaine McMasters]

9 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Are we past feeling bumps on the head, yet?

I think so, though nowhere near past dishing them out.

ETA: To be fair, phrenology doesn't require feeling. People judge each other by facial characteristics other than skin color all the time. If a method for discrimination is widely available and easily used, we'll use it.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Madelaine McMasters

[FairreLilette]

40 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

* And all this has nothing to do with "Dawkin's suggestion". The reality of other subjects outside of vocational training being taught in schools has always been there -- this is not some novel suggestion by him. The reason he mentions it is because he wants subjects such as religion taught outside of a Science class.

You are kind of losing me here but I read the Wiki on him fairly quickly like speed reading and really wasn't interested in an depth discussion about him per se but I'd probably venture to say, the Wiki was poorly written plus yes I did skim over it rather quickly.  

 

42 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

(shop, for example).

Auto shop?  We had auto shop out here in California, so I'm not sure which "shop" you mean exactly?  Auto shop is a good idea to build on and just about exactly where I am with how schools could improve in America - build on the "shop" model.  One pretty much has to go into the military or pay student loans to learn skills in America today.  

[Ceka Cianci]

Well, this was pretty interesting and sciencey N stuff.. hehehe

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

41 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Well, this was pretty interesting and sciencey N stuff.. hehehe

 

I learned of a different scenario when I was a kid, which requires ignoring different physics than in that video, like not having the teaspoon full of neutronium decay or gravitationally attract the earth. If you drop a sugar cube of that kind of stuff off your kitchen counter, it would leave no impact crater. It would fall towards and through the center of the earth, carving a small "tunnel" and coming out the other side at countertop height in someone else's kitchen. It would then oscillate back and forth between the kitchens every few hours. If you add the coriolis effect, the little devil starts tracing a spiral track around the planet, eventually punching holes in everything shorter than counter height.

I love this kind of stuff, which shows what a tiny slice of reality we're exposed to in day-to-day living.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

37 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

It would fall towards and through the center of the earth, carving a small "tunnel" and coming out the other side at countertop height in someone else's kitchen. It would then oscillate back and forth between the kitchens every few hours.

It would take 42 minutes to go through the tunnel. Hence (perhaps) Lewis Caroll's exclamation in Phantasmagoria "to do such a thing, to a man of 42". He wasn't 42 when he wrote it, but he did live on Earth, not Mars or Venus or Saturn ...

Edited April 6, 2021 by Profaitchikenz Haiku

[Luna Bliss]

On 4/5/2021 at 12:50 PM, FairreLilette said:

One pretty much has to go into the military or pay student loans to learn skills in America today.  

Yes in many countries tuition is pro-rated so those with no ability to pay can attend for free.

[Rowan Amore]

13 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes in many countries tuition is pro-rated so those with no ability to pay can attend for free.

I agree that a college degree is out of reach financially for a lot of people.  What I don't agree with is that you have to have one to get a decent paying job.  Mayne not a job where you can buy the high end car or the 5 bedroom home but a livable wage job.  The building trades, electricians, plumbers, carpenters, all pay quite well and are usually apprenticeship based.

Mike Rowe from Dirty Jobs has a scholarship program for these trade schools.  

https://www.mikeroweworks.org/about/

 

[RunawayBunny]

20 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Mayne not a job where you can buy the high end car or the 5 bedroom home but a livable wage job.  The building trades, electricians, plumbers, carpenters, all pay quite well and are usually apprenticeship based.

Some of those jobs died already and many of them will die eventually.

Trading not always reliable way of income it has ups and downs and requires capital to startup.

Electrician used to be decent job but you should not learn it with "apprenticeship based method". It requires proper university learning or you might get your self killed.. Fixing a radio simple task but making a electric infrastructure for a building not same thing and dangerous if not educated properly.

Majority of carpenter products made by automated factories.. yes it is not top tier but you can't compete with price and production speed with you hand crafted product.

Plumbers probably only job never going to die every house need it at some point and hard to automate (unless its all in one prefab building.)

Edit: Things might be different in your country it is my viewpoint from my country.

Edited April 7, 2021 by RunawayBunny
About other countries...

[FairreLilette]

23 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I agree that a college degree is out of reach financially for a lot of people.  What I don't agree with is that you have to have one to get a decent paying job.  Mayne not a job where you can buy the high end car or the 5 bedroom home but a livable wage job.  The building trades, electricians, plumbers, carpenters, all pay quite well and are usually apprenticeship based.

Mike Rowe from Dirty Jobs has a scholarship program for these trade schools.  

https://www.mikeroweworks.org/about/

 

I never said college.  I said skills...no skills out of high school.  You still have to pay student loans out the ying and the yang for learning a skill in America.  Scholarships are different altogether, of course.  My sister went to optician school, paid student loans for well over a decade and never ended up working that job even.  

My neighbor when I was married was an electrician.  He made mega-bucks and had a ginormous two-story house and his wife didn't have to work at all.  Well he worked building rides at one of the biggest tourist attractions in California.  He learned in the military.  But, I've known other electricians and it pays a lot, especially in California for what is called a gaffer and a gaffer is the chief electrician on movie sets mostly.  

A lot of trades people learn in the military for free for the training if they enlist for a specific length of time.  But, I was speaking of trades when I said skills and I never mentioned college.  Or maybe I did but I was speaking of skilled jobs.  There are different types of colleges also.  Beauty college is a college but it's pricey.  

Edited April 7, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Rowan Amore]

20 minutes ago, RunawayBunny said:

Some of those jobs died already and many of them will die eventually.

Trading not always reliable way of income it has ups and downs and requires capital to startup.

Electrician used to be decent job but you should not learn it with "apprenticeship based method". It requires proper university learning or you might get your self killed.. Fixing a radio simple task but making a electric infrastructure for a building not same thing and dangerous if not educated properly.

Majority of carpenter products made by automated factories.. yes it is not top tier but you can't compete with price and production speed with you hand crafted product.

Plumbers probably only job never going to die every house need it at some point and hard to automate (unless its all in one prefab building.)

Edit: Things might be different in your country it is my viewpoint from my country.

You're incorrect in many areas.  The apprenticeship programs for electricians and carpenters also requires in school classes usually through the union.  My husband spent 4 years doing so.  Work while you learn.  Homes and businesses are still built by skilled carpenters.  As is the wiring and plumbing in those homes and businesses.

Things may be different in your country but there are still skilled jobs here that don't require a college degree.  Somewhere along the way, people began to think working hard was somehow less desirable.  Sweat and hard work.  It's what most countries were built on.

Amd sorry, totally off topic!

I love Darwin!

Edited April 7, 2021 by Rowan Amore