Skin creator attempting to make a comeback

[Ayesha Bisiani]

I used to create skins for Second Life and my business name was "Skin Within". With the addition of Bakes on Mesh, I've decided to look into the world again and hopefully restart my business.

Though my base skin plus makeup tattoos are now ready, I am absolutely confused about how to package this. In the days of old, I could just have people buy the skin as a base skin layer, with makeup as tattoo layers and when they clicked on a vendor they received a folder with the files. Now however, the system of HUD's, Appliers and what not has me totally confused.

My question is therefore, what do I put in the box? Skins and makeup like before all as layers or do I need to package this as a HUD? Is there any other option or guidance as to how to proceed?

I've attached a pic of the skin I am planning to launch (Lelutka Evolution head + Maitreya body) as well.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Lillith Hapmouche]

Hah, I do remember your store ☺️

Basically, you can stick to your old system, if you go completely "Bakes on Mesh" style. The base skin as a skin layer, make-up as tattoo layers. I'd also put the eyebrows as a separate layer.

Perhaps also offer the body skins as appliers. Omega is a universal system for all enabled mesh parts - it might not suit all body UV maps perfectly. As long as it applies well, you don't need extra textures besides those already used on the system skins, because you'll be adding the texture UUIDs to the applier scripts.

Or simply go the full BOM route and see if there'll be any demand for appliers.  

Note: written from a customer's point of view.

Good luck!

[Ayesha Bisiani]

Thanks Lillith for the quick answer and for remembering me

When you say body skins, I'm not sure you mean. I understand some designers are making only head skins, but  my head and body work in an integrated way with the Lelutka Evolution head and Maitreya body. So basically if I wear both meshes (head from Lelutka, body from Maitreya) and enable my BOM sliders on both, my skin appears.

Ideally I would love to provide the skin plus makeup as just system layers. If a customer wants glossy or specular effects these can be enabled via the mesh HUD and show up on the skin layers anyhow.. So my thoughts are why complicate life by giving extra HUD's right? I guess my being HUD creation challenged is also part of the decision 😄

The benefit to having a HUD is one can visually look at the effect of the makeup whilst applying it..  I'm unsure if there is any other benefit in my case as a skin designer.

At the end of the day however, I want the customer to be happy and to use a system they are comfortable with. I don't want anyone to buy my product and say "Whattttt.." I have no idea how this works!

If you have any further input for me I'd appreciate it. But thanks a bunch again for your quick response.
 

[Lillith Hapmouche]

Perhaps join the LeLutka inworld group and chat a bit with the staff and the potential customers. My personal view is: why not full BOM? All major brands are updated and support it. You aren't limiting yourself to a couple selected brands (e. g. one of my alts wears a Genus BOM skin on an old LeLutka head)...

Well, true, if you have applier options, things like transparency and such can be adjusted, which isn't an option for BOM layers. That might be a minus.

Quote

When you say body skins, I'm not sure you mean. I understand some designers are making only head skins, but  my head and body work in an integrated way with the Lelutka Evolution head and Maitreya body. So basically if I wear both meshes (head from Lelutka, body from Maitreya) and enable my BOM sliders on both, my skin appears.

The idea is that people might be slower to update their bodies, based on a couple of remarks in group chats and such that Maitreya customers haven't upgraded to the v5.x version yet. But it's mostly guessing.

[Roxy Couturier]

The main thing on BoM/System skins for me, are the fingers and toes.

Also, each body is slightly different from what I understand. Catwa heads are mapped differently than Lelutka and Genus. A skin made for Catwa, for instance, doesn't look quite right on a Lelutka head. And vice versa. That's why some skin makers make a base body skin and then have the head as separate appliers. A body applier for the customers specific body and another for their specific brand of head. (SL is probably the only place that that sentence makes any sort of sense..)

From what I understand on how things work, appliers use the UUID of the skin/system texture to apply them on the body or head.

You might want to pick up a dev kit from various head and body makers. That can give you the map to aide you in making skins and/or make-up.

[Marianne Little]

55 minutes ago, Roxy Couturier said:

The main thing on BoM/System skins for me, are the fingers and toes.

Also, each body is slightly different from what I understand. Catwa heads are mapped differently than Lelutka and Genus. A skin made for Catwa, for instance, doesn't look quite right on a Lelutka head. And vice versa. That's why some skin makers make a base body skin and then have the head as separate appliers. A body applier for the customers specific body and another for their specific brand of head. (SL is probably the only place that that sentence makes any sort of sense..)

From what I understand on how things work, appliers use the UUID of the skin/system texture to apply them on the body or head.

You might want to pick up a dev kit from various head and body makers. That can give you the map to aide you in making skins and/or make-up.

The bolded: You sell the body skin as a "skin" then, and the whole head or face as a tattoo layer. Some does not like that, because they can accidentally take off their face skin.

We are talking about BOM, you can not take off an applied skin by accident. You have to add an applier and click it to replace a skin.

With BOM, in appearance mode, your finger can slip and you take off the face/head tattoo, instead of the tattoo hairbase or another tattoo layer.

It is up to you, but if you sell it like the bolded part, you should know.

I am one of those who don't like this, but it is not a hard "no buy".

[Ayesha Bisiani]

Roxy, Marianne, thanks for sharing your thoughts. When I logged in three months ago, after a long break, I felt I was navigating a minefield of appliers. Suddenly avatars were a lot prettier, but what permutations, combinations and hoops one had to jump to get them that way.

Marianne, I agree that not having heads on a tattoo layer is better. I cannot even count the number of times I've removed my eyebrows because I forgot to click "add" so I can imagine how it must look when a faceless person is out and about, blissfully unaware of their appearance. I feel it's so much more practical to have a single skin that works seamlessly across the three UV zones rather than having to shop for a body in one store and a head elsewhere and then have to color match it to get it right. Let's not even get started on the dreaded neck seam. I tend to not like blurring seam areas as I use texture brushes to paint across seams to keep the detail intact. So having to rely on neck fixes or chokers is not very appealing.

Roxy you mentioned the skin not fitting quite right from maker to maker but I do feel if the mesh designer stays within the rules and builds the part based on the default linden head/body AND the skin designer takes care to ensure their parts also fit well within the default UV there will not be a problem. Of course, lips and certain other details may or may not always work, but the skin designer can test and adjust. Basically if one stays within the lines, there is a good chance it will be compatible. Plus it's the skin-makers job to declare what brands the finished product works with plus a buyer should always have access to demos of everything. 

Appliers: Please correct me if I am wrong, as I am having a hard time wrapping my head around appliers. I've been reading a lot and finding all sorts of different perspectives. As an applier newbie, what I understand, is an applier is a graphical interface that makes it easy to put on a skin and it's associated parts like eyes, makeup and more. It allows for normal and specular mapping as well giving the object to be textured a lot more detail. My point however, is this required for skin? One can just wear the skin straight from inventory and have it fit seamlessly across all zones. Click and you are done! Does one need an addional HUD to do this? The specular settings on my mesh body and head, the addition of gloss and droplets show through my system skin just fine. So do I really need to have additional specular maps on an applier? 

I see the use of appliers for make-up. Having these presented graphically is beneficial. One can see the style and color and wear it. Adding extra specularity to makeup is also something that could result in an interesting look. Same with eyes. One could offer 10 shades of blue and "show" these via a HUD/applier so people don't have to remember blue03 and blue06 are their favorites.

I'm also curious about how the alpha layering system works with appliers. I've read that these can sometimes conflict resulting in one having to make a choice what is worn in the event two textures are competing for the same space. This is not so with BOM. One can have a multitude of layers and as long as one clicks "add" instead of "wear" everything will show correctly and work as it should, if layered properly. I also like that once the texture is baked it's rendering cost (regardless of the number of layers) is the same as having just a single skin layer. I am not completely sure if appliers work like this or if they have a different rendering cost which is calculated separately resulting in longer rez times.

Gosh I've written a book :-). If you read it, you have my thanks.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Ayesha Bisiani

[Marianne Little]

12 hours ago, Ayesha Bisiani said:

.....Roxy you mentioned the skin not fitting quite right from maker to maker but I do feel if the mesh designer stays within the rules and builds the part based on the default linden head/body AND the skin designer takes care to ensure their parts also fit well within the default UV there will not be a problem. Of course, lips and certain other details may or may not always work, but the skin designer can test and adjust. Basically if one stays within the lines, there is a good chance it will be compatible. Plus it's the skin-makers job to declare what brands the finished product works with plus a buyer should always have access to demos of everything. 

Appliers: Please correct me if I am wrong, as I am having a hard time wrapping my head around appliers. I've been reading a lot and finding all sorts of different perspectives. As an applier newbie, what I understand, is an applier is a graphical interface that makes it easy to put on a skin and it's associated parts like eyes, makeup and more. It allows for normal and specular mapping as well giving the object to be textured a lot more detail. My point however, is this required for skin? One can just wear the skin straight from inventory and have it fit seamlessly across all zones. Click and you are done! Does one need an addional HUD to do this? The specular settings on my mesh body and head, the addition of gloss and droplets show through my system skin just fine. So do I really need to have additional specular maps on an applier? 

I see the use of appliers for make-up. Having these presented graphically is beneficial. One can see the style and color and wear it. Adding extra specularity to makeup is also something that could result in an interesting look. Same with eyes. One could offer 10 shades of blue and "show" these via a HUD/applier so people don't have to remember blue03 and blue06 are their favorites.

I'm also curious about how the alpha layering system works with appliers. I've read that these can sometimes conflict resulting in one having to make a choice what is worn in the event two textures are competing for the same space. This is not so with BOM. One can have a multitude of layers and as long as one clicks "add" instead of "wear" everything will show correctly and work as it should, if layered properly. I also like that once the texture is baked it's rendering cost (regardless of the number of layers) is the same as having just a single skin layer. I am not completely sure if appliers work like this or if they have a different rendering cost which is calculated separately resulting in longer rez times.

Gosh I've written a book :-). If you read it, you have my thanks.

I have edited your post to only the things I try to reply on.

The different heads have different interfaces. Here are an example from a content creator, how skins look different on other heads than the one it was made for: https://www.flickr.com/photos/deetalez/48793190893/

And here standard skin based on the default SL UV Map:

So you can see it is a bit problematic. Catwa in particular, have a nose that demand a nose job on the skin, to fit well. Also the inner eye corners are not working well with skins that have a lot of under eye detail.

How toes is made on the feet can be a bit different. You can avoid this by not using details on the toes. Instead of trying to make shading between the toes. I see that some skin creators offer different fits, and I believe this is due to them taking time to draw shades and details on the toes. I do not mean nail details, you use no painted on nails, whatever way you take.

The good thing is that all the heads and all the bodies have free demos, and that uploads on the Beta Grid is free. So you can work on your skins there. You do not need full priced bodies and heads.

You do not need to make skin appliers. You understand them very correct. The reason skin appliers still sell well, is that a very large user group have only used appliers and think BOM is complicated. They are afraid to try new things. Linden Lab waited so long to introduce BOM. The last 4-5 years, those who joined SL do not know how to use layers, only appliers.

Some makeup appliers use Materials, since shiny and more details goes on the HD lips (High definition) and also on HD eye makeups. Only those who have advanced lightning can see materials effects.

Will you lose some of the market by not offering skin appliers? Maybe. I think BOM has finally started to get sales, I believe we are going to see the skin applier market be smaller and smaller.

You can offer makeup on tattoo layer and appliers. I follow the weekly and monthly sales, and this is what I see: More and more BOM skins, and makeup on tattoo + applier. It is not all who offer this combination, but maybe 30 - 40 percent. I do not think you must make appliers for makeup, depends if you want to.

You understand layers versus appliers correct. The Catwa heads have double makeup slots, upper/lower for every slot. Other heads have only one slot, one  for lipstick, one for eyemakeup et cetera., and I had problems using Halloween effects. I could not use as many effects as I wanted. I had to chose between zombie wounds or dripping blood from the mouth, since the zombie wound would overlap the lipstick slot and had to use it and no bloody lips. BOM set us free from the applier slavery, just add, add, add. I hope we see more and more BOM when people understand how easy it is.

Bodies can use only 3 appliers over skins. So if I had a plain skin, and wanted freckles, tattoos, makeup, and pubic hair, that is 4 and not possible. Before BOM, I was using the only skin that had drawn on freckles and red public hair. It did not use up the applier shells.

Another thing, should you offer pubes on the skin or a tattoo? I would say, ether no pubes at all, or a tintable tattoo included with the skin. Offer at least one tattoo for push-up. Here you should use the chest part of the skin with the cleavage drawn on it, and not a general cleavage tint option, since a tinted cleavage often look dirty.

Follow the news about Genus. Are the store opening again? You can join the Genus friends group, it will be posted there if the store open again. If the Genus does not return, you do not have to offer skins fitted to that head. Genus was very popular, so it is still made content for it, and the store has only been closed since April 12th. (DMCA filed against them)

Edited May 28, 2020 by Marianne Little
added a few words to clarify + typo

[Ayesha Bisiani]

Thanks Marianne. You took a lot of time to explain things to me with a lot of clarity.

I've had a smile on my face ever since I read your term "applier slavery".. Very appropriately described. In fact I came back to Second Life because I was so excited about BOM but still find a lot of people attached to their appliers. But then again, they must have spent a lot of money and time to learn this system so they would be reluctant to adapt so soon. Hopefully, in time..

From my perspective, having a HUD is beneficial when there are many choices and it's hard to remember those by name. So seeing those choices depicted visually helps one to decide what to choose. A bit like selecting the color we want for our hair. Or a specific makeup style or eye color.

Right now, I'm offering my skins as system layers. I have one version without eyebrows. Sometimes, I offer a no lip version also. All base/system layers. Then I offer pubes (a few colors), freckles (if applicable to the style of skin) and different eyebrows (different styles and colors to suit the skin) as separate tattoos. Makeup is separate and also offered as add-on tattoo layers. 

The other suggestions you have made are very helpful and practical suggestions. I like the idea of having a push up tattoo layer. I should try to work on that for my next skins or see if it's possible to add retrospectively.

A huge thumbs up Marianne!! Many many thanks.

 

[Nalates Urriah]

You seem to have a challenge with the idea of an applier. I'll see if I can simplify the idea.

When you make a classic/system skin there is a point where you place the skin textures (called the diffuse layer in 'materials' jargon) in the slots provided in a new skin, head, upper, and lower body. This is sort of what an applier does. But, with classic/system an applier is not needed. Just the system skin layer you are used to.

Mesh bodies and heads are a type of prim. If you were to put your skin-texture on a cube you would open the Build Panel and edit the prim's texture. You would likely select a face and then drop the texture into the panel. Poof, the texture appears on the cube. That is exactly what an applier does just via scripts.

Of course the scripting and prim names and ALL the prim settings make things complexingly tedious to get right for an applier. Making it less a problem is the niche Omega fills. But, it isn't rocket science. BOM was added to take away that complexity and get back to the simplicity of system skin and makeup.

So, if you made new skins just as you did 'old' skins, that will work. Advertise them as classic/BOM only and use 1024x1024 textures. If people ask you for Appliers, talk to a scripter.

 

I have a GA.EG head, Jennifer. I use it with a YS&YS skin, the classic version (It came with an applier which I use with my non-BOM body). I wear BOM body and head with the system skin from YS&YS and switch my head's skin to BOM to have the YS&YS skin show. I prefer the GA.EG makeup which is applier style makeups. When I add a blush it goes on a layer (onion skin) in the head that is over the skin. I can then adjust transparency, glow, gloss, environment, and brightness. I have about 18+/- levels of each setting and it is this versatility I like. 

There are trade offs in using system skin and applier skin or makeup. With classic makeup you provide a number of levels of transparencies. But, you can't have a glowing tattoo. You can sort of get close using colors. Me with a dark skin can simulate a glowing system tat because my dark skin glows far less than the tat. But, there is just one setting that applies to both. With my Applier tat I can control it separately. There is a set of settings for each layer (onionskin). My point being I have more control with the appliers putting textures on an onionskin as it is just like a prim cube with all the same possibilities.

When I look for a skin I want a head skin that is bare faced, no tat, no lipstick, no lashes, etc. If it doesn't come with a natural or plain skin, I won't buy it.

I do want the skin made for my head. But, that is not a big thing if it isn't. I try a demo and go from there. The GA.EG heads are not a major brand supported by most skin makers. GA.EG makes their own. But, I find the head is mapped well enough that most head skins work well on it... not perfectly as intended by the designer or as depicted in the promo material. But, if one doesn't know what it is SUPPOSED to look like there is no noticeable problem.

[Blaise Glendevon]

On 4/30/2020 at 8:25 AM, Ayesha Bisiani said:

I used to create skins for Second Life and my business name was "Skin Within".

 

I don't have any help to offer, but your skins were some of my first skins as a newbie! Welcome back.

[Ayesha Bisiani]

Thanks Nalates, that's a lot of useful information. 

4 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

You seem to have a challenge with the idea of an applier. I'll see if I can simplify the idea.

I've recently made applier eyes so have managed to banish the applier boogeyman 😁. I also plan to make my makeup as appliers as well. This way, a customer would know exactly how it would look via the HUD plus I can offer eye-shadow and lips to go on separately. This would give people the people the option to play with the applier sliders for gloss and environment and introduce changes in the makeup look. Going forward, my new skins will have applier make-up and I'll most probably update my existing BOM makeup layers to applier as well.

I haven't thought about making tattoos yet, but I totally get how appliers could be helpful in this.

For my base skins however, I am sticking to system layers and have set them up as you suggest. Also elements and add-ons for that particular skin such as freckles, eyebrow options, cleavage, pubes, tan lines etc can be system layers as well so people can layer these as they like without competing for applier space. I prefer not to offer my skins in multiple skin tones because in my mind, each one needs to have a distinct look. If I do a dark skin, I will ensure the features are designed to work with the look I am trying to create, so offering it again as a redhead won't look or feel right. So if there are no skin tones to choose from, the need for skin appliers goes away. A few clicks from inventory and one is done. Plus with BOM, there is the advantage of these multiple layers baking down to a single 1024 (x3 of course for the different zones) texture. The applier can then be used to wear makeup and decide on the look of the day!

To my mind, this seems like the best, most practical way forward, to offer my customers the advantages of both systems.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Ayesha Bisiani

[Ayesha Bisiani]

54 minutes ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

I don't have any help to offer, but your skins were some of my first skins as a newbie! Welcome back.

Thank you so much 💛

[Tess Falworth]

Hi Ayesha, I think you got some great advice and I know this is an older topic, but I came across it and I wanted to just comment that if you are wanting to make skins for the new systems, I would suggest making the body and head together.. some creators will offer them sperately, some will do it together, and some still do appliers. While I like appliers for SOME things, I prefer skins to be on bom. I will be honest, as a customer, I will usually purchase more from creators who do skins as one .. in other words, if they offer the body and head together. If they do not, I will probably not purchase there again.. just depends on the quality and if I really, really like it. I make eyes and makeup, and I prefer to use BOM for makeup, and appliers for eyes (even though I will include BOM layers for them as well). 

Your skins will need to be adapted for the system you want to sell for.. be it Lelutka, Genus, etc. Welcome back and good luck! Feel free to reach out if you want in world.. !