Use of "useless" scripts ?!?

[Monti Messmer]

Not sure this is the right place to post cos the scripters might want to kill me for ...

Everyones moaning about lag in SL but on the other hand

we have 8 prim vendors for 7 single items, heavy scripted to select the item in focus, give notecards, sell it .... where a single box with a picture and set to PAY give a copy could do the same with build-in fucntions

we have resizer scripts in a single-prim cufflink or the leg attachments for pants ...

scripts to unpack boxes and workarounds to give no-copy items where the build-in functions allready resolved that problems without a single line of code

While all these scripts have their right to be used in the right place and time everyone should be more careful and thinking about if there is really a script needed for the job to be done. I know vendors send email notifications are important, resizer for hair and shoes .... !

Ok it´s noon and i am hungry, bored and in a bad mood for some reason - wanna kill me for this ? feel free :smileywink:

[Identity Euler]

/me gives Monti a cookie

You are right.

[Luc Starsider]

I have just had lunch, so I'm not going to bite your head off. I am, in fact, going to agree with you.

- Luc -

[Sassy Romano]

To begin with i'll say that I agree with you however there's a but...

In order to help those with less interest in building but just who want to shop and look good so we have texture huds, resizers and similar.  I have no problem with these as long as the product remains copy and modify so that they can be removed or worst case, copy and scripts that can be deleted.

Unpacking scripts, I don't mind, the item isn't permanently rezzed and for those who insist on no rez shops, at least people can get to it there and then.  Sending people away from a shop to unpack is in my mind, not a good idea, they're out of the shop at that point, forget to return, no further business.

As for vendors, if you want sales tracking, redelivery facilities, ability to configure all your vendors gridwide from a central admin point, you won't achieve that with boxes set to sale.

So there are some ways which are better and as I said, I do agree with the sentiment but it has to be weighed against encouraging users.

[Darkie Minotaur]

/me shrugs and continues to munch his lunch

[Jenni Darkwatch]

All good points, and IMO all true. Scripts in SL are, mostly, atrocities as it is.

[Innula Zenovka]

 

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Jenni Darkwatch wrote:

All good points, and IMO all true. Scripts in SL are, mostly, atrocities as it is.

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The main reason for that, I suspect, is that all too often someone will get hold of a perfectly good script -- perhaps from the script library -- that does its job as it should.   He edits it a bit, and then some time later someone asks in a builders' group, "anyone got a script to do such-and-such?"  

The first person passes his over, and then, soon after, an edited version of his edited version gets passed to another builder who "doesn't know much about scripting but I can edit them a bit" who, more by luck than good judgment gets it to work for his purposes, possibly by dropping bits of another script in... and so it goes on.

A while ago, someone gave me a gun script to have a look at that they'd got from a friend but couldn't get to work.    The thing was a bloated nonsense with whole sections, clearly by a variety of different people, that either did nothing at all or cancelled out what something else did.  I told him it was gibberish and that I was amazed it had ever worked, to which he replied, "but it's by a Linden -- look at the creator field". 

So I looked more closely, and realised it had started out as the pop-gun script in everyone's library before half a dozen different people had hacked it about.    I gave him a copy of the original and explained to him how to use it, checked what he did with it  and he ended up with a decent script. 

Then there's the related reason, I guess, that someone decides to write a script for sale that has to be endlessly configurable, often by notecards,  to adapt to the particular circumstances in which it's to be used, and you end up with something that's very good at covering all the bases but massive overkill for the particular base that needs covering on any particular occasion.   I can't be the only person who started out thinking that the Timeless Door Script was wonderful, though possibly more complex than necessary for what I wanted to do (and certainly too complex for making a wardrobe),  and then, on deciding to learn a bit about scripting for myself, came across Void's really simple door and got a bit of a shock.

But I don't really see there's solution to the problem, other than helping people write better scripts for themselves.  

[Jenni Darkwatch]

True. I think it's the deceptively easy scripting that's both the boon and bane of SL.

[Rolig Loon]

You've hit it right on the head, Innula.  Scripting in SL is like every other creative endeavor (texturing, building, animating ....).  There are many very talented scripters who know what they are doing and can write efficient code, and there is a much greater number of amateurs who know just enough to add a line or two to an existing script, but have no clue what they are doing.  It's part of the lovely "Your World, Your Imagination" feel that makes SL a wonderful place to be.... and it's the source of a lot of the lag and unevenness that makes SL kinda bumpy to move around in.  Yes, SL could be a lot cleaner and more efficient if all the work were done by a few professionals, but that would take away much of what makes our world what it is. 

[Void Singer]

my philosophy? if you can't tear it apart cobble it together or see how it works, you'll never be able to fix it, and new things will never be created. Yes that means you have to put up with a lot of horribly scripted stuff, and the way we combat the worst of that is by making the really common stuff Open Source and Free.

a little story to expand on Innula's example of the Timeless Door Script. When I first starting fooling around with LSL I too came across it.... and in theory and creativity, it's great, has all these options and does all this stuff.... that most people didn't care about or use... they just wanted a door. It also had problems because the original coder either didn't quite get rotations, or didn't want to give away the "big secret".

now me, I was never good at quaternion rotations either, so I applied myself to figuring out how to use them correctly (and looked like an idiot a few times along the way), or at least the formulas for how (I still don't fully understand them), because I knew there was a simpler way.... and discovered that for a little extra effort when making the door, all the problems were solved (and the script only needed one line of actual code, 3 if you wanted to make it easy to set up).

but what to do? sit on what I knew and sell it as the super efficient door that never forgets and always works? or show everyone else how simple it could be, and hopefully get people making better versions of what was freely available and bloated overused? I went with the latter. People started using it, and even hacking it up to add features... net result; things in SL got a little better over time (although I still come across the Timeless Door from time to time and cringe)

BUT, if that inefficient code hadn't been out there to see, I never would have known, and may have used something like it myself. And if the ideas that were part of that script weren't out there, I might never incorporated them myself.... others have added features or requested them that I might never have considered myself. at least one person took the same simple code I put out, and built a door server, a single script that controls ALL the doors in a house; something I hadn't thought to do (but should have)

the moral of the story being that, as a community we need the inefficient to generate more and new ideas, and we need the people that see the popular and commonly used items to make them efficient and freely/cheaply available, so that the inefficient designs aren't clogging the tubes and we also need the people willing to demonstrate and help along in showing the more efficient ways of doing things. with those three things all of SL improves, and has been for some time

 

ADDENDUM:
I saw the first uncredited rip of my Zen Resizer the other day and it made me sad (literally all they did was take my name out of the help file... didn't even bother to rename it). seriously don't be that person who doesn't do the the simple act of giving credit for something you got for free when asked.... it's one of the smallest prices you'll ever pay for anything. in fact, try to give it for any whole script, unless it says public domain.it's just a courtesy, but it's one that keeps the free stuff flowing.

[PeterCanessa Oh]

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Monti Messmer wrote:

the scripters might want to kill me for ...

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BAD scripters might want to kill you, but they probably don't even realise they are bad because they don't keep up with forums and wiki.

GOOD scripters would almost certainly agree or explain why they have scripts for 'trivial' things.  We are always concerned with the quality and efficiency of our scripts.

But please remember scripts are the last priority for processing-time on SL servers so they can only cause each other to lag.  If you are experiencing other types of lag - moving around or 'odd' collisions between things, for instance - it will be connection/internet/graphics card issues or an overworked physics-engine.

[Sassy Romano]

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

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Monti Messmer wrote:

the scripters might want to kill me for ...

---

BAD scripters might want to kill you, but they probably don't even realise they are bad because they don't keep up with forums and wiki.

GOOD scripters would almost certainly agree or explain why they have scripts for 'trivial' things.  We are always concerned with the quality and efficiency of our scripts.

But please remember scripts are the last priority for processing-time on SL servers so they can only cause each other to lag.  If you are experiencing other types of lag - moving around or 'odd' collisions between things, for instance - it will be connection/internet/graphics card issues or an overworked physics-engine.

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Presently this is not exactly true.  The mono rez issue in SVC-3895 would not exist if scripts did not exist.  I know this isn't exactly the scripts themselves which is why I said "not exactly" but rezzing or tp'ing into a region when laden down with hundreds of mono scripts will very much lag the sim, cause movement issues etc. and not just cause each other to lag.

Also, having worked a homestead pretty hard with vendors and servers, I can tell you that it very much slowed down regardless of who else was around so i'm very unconvinced that scripts are so partitioned off that they don't affect anything else but themselves.

[Rolig Loon]

You're right about the MONO bug, but that's thankfully an issue that will finally be resolved soon. Aside from that, though, Peter's basic point is correct. Scripts aren't "partitioned off," but they have a lower priority for server attention than any other assets in a sim. When the servers are faced with rendering textures, handling communications, dealing with the physics engine, and everything else, they give whatever time is left over to executing scripts.  It's only when there's nothing left to work with that the servers begin to lag, and by then they've already given up on executing scripts.

[Void Singer]

to be fair, the physics engine does have some built in throttles, and I would assume they aren't the only ones; so scripts will useually get SOME processing time no matter what.

The MONO bug is MOSTLY squashed by threaded rez, but large amounts of scripts in de/rezzing objects at once is still a bit of a problem. there is one other rather obscure an unpublicized bug where certain scripts can eat up more than their share of time, but it's pretty rare, and only has potential to affect region health.

in general, the thing that scripts affect most are the avatars they are attached to (low responsiveness at teleports, mono only) and other scripts. the big exception being scripts that affect physics, which obviously have that as an additional load.

[PeterCanessa Oh]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Presently this is not exactly true.  ...  having worked a homestead pretty hard with vendors and servers, I can tell you that it very much slowed down .

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True, it is possible to so abuse sim resources that the servers themselves start to run out of memory.  Nothing is unbreakable.  It is for just such a reason that LL are introducing script limits.

[Luc Starsider]

 

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Presently this is not exactly true.  ...  having worked a homestead pretty hard with vendors and servers, I can tell you that it very much slowed down .

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True, it is possible to so abuse sim resources that the servers themselves start to run out of memory.  Nothing is unbreakable. 

It is for just such a reason that LL are introducing script limits

.

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Are they actually coming out with script limits? It's been such a long time since there was any talk about it, at least in the 'open'. (I've not been following the user groups where this could be discussed, so I might have missed the info).

- Luc -

[PeterCanessa Oh]

It's all been a bit quiet, yes Luc, but we've just got extra functions for measuring script-performance and that was always meant to be a precursor.  The last schedule I heard was 'mid-year' for announcing what limits would be, with them actually being introduced in 'Q4'.  That still looks probably as far as I can tell but there are different guesstimates and opinions going around.

I'm sure others will comment and Kelly might even be listening (...?)

[Rolig Loon]

The word at the OH on Monday was that script limits aren't on the near horizon.

[Luc Starsider]

Ah, Right. I saw something about those functions, but didn't know there was a connection to script limits. Then again, from what Rolig says, there might not be. Not directly, anyway.

 

I actually think script limits will be a good thing for SL, at least in the long run, and I'm growing a bit impatient to see them implemented.

 

- Luc -

[Void Singer]

it's not per Rolig, it's per Kelly....

(chatter removed)

[09:35:04]  Void Singer: so assuning MONO 2 rez gets done this week, what's up after that?

[09:35:16]  Kelly Linden: week long party

[09:36:12]  Rolig Loon: So where does this put us with respect to script limits?

[09:36:33]  Kelly Linden: Script limits is on hold.

I included the first to highlight the point (there was mention of threaded de-rez which will probably go in the queue next)

ETA:
psst rolig, ya gotta drop the name too or people get dubious =D

[Rolig Loon]

 

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Void Singer wrote:

it's not per Rolig, it's per Kelly....

(chatter removed)

[09:35:04]  Void Singer: so assuning MONO 2 rez gets done this week, what's up after that?

[09:35:16]  Kelly Linden: week long party

[09:36:12]  Rolig Loon: So where does this put us with respect to script limits?

[09:36:33]  Kelly Linden: Script limits is on hold.

I included the first to highlight the point (there was mention of threaded de-rez which will probably go in the queue next)

ETA:

psst rolig, ya gotta drop the name too or people get dubious =D

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Hehe.  You're right, Void.   I'm still new in the band, so I missed a beat. I should have capitalized "The Word" in my post.  Only a Linden would say The Word.

 

[Luc Starsider]

Noooooo.:smileysurprised: I didn't mean to imply that Rolig all by herself decided that script limits were off. I was just refering to her post where she said that it had come up in the user group meeting where I assumed (but didn't specify this was what I thought) the info had come from the Lindens. :smileysad:

I'm sorry if I gave a different impression. Forgive me? /me sitting at the edge of his seat, biting his nails, hoping everybody understand what he means.

- Luc -

[Void Singer]

just giving ya a little razzing Luc =D (but it coulda been read that way)

[Luc Starsider]

That's a relief Well, not that it could have been read in a way I didn't intend. The meaning sounded clear in my head as I wrote it. 

- Luc -