ortiga Waco Posted April 23, 2011 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 sorry the spell checker isn't the best I probably need to go and edit it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ortiga Waco Posted April 23, 2011 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 btw thanks everyone for taking a interest in this post no matter what side you are on, whether linden labs takes this advice or not it is certainly worth looking into Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arton Rotaru Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Ok, think what you want. I'm out now. :smileyhappy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashasekayi Ra Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 A mesh object can have far less polygons than a sculpt. A sculpt has a set amount while a mesh object can have more or less than that amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charolotte Caxton Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 A technologically based virtual world demands and deserves upgrades. Otherwise I would be telegraphing this message to you. In real life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogboat Taurog Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Charolotte Caxton wrote: A technologically based virtual world demands and deserves upgrades. Otherwise I would be telegraphing this message to you. In real life. the problem is partly that LL will not add more servers and partly that the majority of users dont have up to date pcs or high bandwidth. SL will will become a desert as people find other SL like worlds where their technology is adequate. you are not telegraphing this message to me as the average pc user now has the internet and sufficicient technology to be able to read your message on a forum. they can use SL, watch videos, receive emails and photos, play WOW, have an account on bookface with an older pc. dont expect them to upgrade for something they dont need, they wont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenni Darkwatch Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 That post seems... a lot of hot air, no facts, no nothing. Build almost any prism with sculpts, then build one with mesh. Difference? A ton less vertices for mesh. How that's going to lag servers any worse is beyond me, though. Physics maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charolotte Caxton Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 @ Dogboat: (realizes the irony of not being able to use the quote button from her cell phone) First, why wouldn't they add or improve upon their servers? Secondly, in order to experience a richer Second Life, why wouldn't someone invest in a better graphics card or whatever it is they need? Lastly, how do we know these things, such as the majority of people and the average user? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ortiga Waco Posted April 23, 2011 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 well Charolotte you obviously fairly new to sl, anyone that has played secondlife for several years now will know linden labs hasn't upgraded their servers in years and infact they are adding more sims to the out of date servers each day stressing them more and more, top on the addition of better graphics higher detailed meshs and physics of those meshs, and those servers will be under even more stress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogboat Taurog Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Charolotte Caxton wrote: @ Dogboat: (realizes the irony of not being able to use the quote button from her cell phone) First, why wouldn't they add or improve upon their servers? Secondly, in order to experience a richer Second Life, why wouldn't someone invest in a better graphics card or whatever it is they need? Lastly, how do we know these things, such as the majority of people and the average user? ive been here 4 years i have a fair number of friends here, how often do you see, "omg lag?", "wait things arent rezzed" and i know LL only too well they dont want to pay good money for something that wont profit them. do you think meshes will attract more users? i dont. concurrency is down because of many LL goofs including V2. moap was a failure, moap games where? forced conversion to V2 will see an exodus of users, mark my words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Clary Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 ortiga Waco wrote: arton sculpted prims allow a total of 1024 verticies, you would divide this number by 4 to get the number of poly's on a sculpt which is 256. 256x32 (the number of sculpts allowed on a vehicle not 30, that changed a few months ago with havok7) and you get 7680. AKA your suv there has twice as many poly's as a sculpt car would not vise versa. Sorry, but your calculation is wrong and i would like to give you a correction and allow me to add a bit more of background information: A standard Sculptie has always 1024 Faces (not vertices!) Due to the way how the underlaying mesh is constructed for sculpties (yes sculpties ARE meshes!) it can have at most 1089 vertices for planes (33*33 vertices) and at least 1024 vertices for torus (32*32 vertices). You can get smaller sculpties when you use viewer-2 for import. the smallest possible size for sculpties is 8*8 = 64 faces. But due to long (very long) standing bug in the used jpeg graphics libraries such small sculpties suffer from distortions and can not be uploaded lossless (even if the lossless checkmark is checked). Because sculpties use this very special mesh topology and because they use a fixed UV map they are very hard to texturize. Hence making sculpties IS a nightmare for 3D modellers. Face it. You just got used to them. 3D modellers outside of SL shake heads and run away screaming loud when i tell them what sculpties are about ;-) Meshes remove all constraints which are put on sculpties: You can have any number of verts/tris/quads/faces whatever you like most for your wording (ok, there is an upper limit of course). You can have your very own and special UV map which is mandatory to have if you want to make efficient(!) models. Thus constructing any model with meshes will in most cases be more efficient and in the absolute worst case be as efficient as a sculptie. The car example from earlier shows it exactly and its numbers are fully correct. Another very nice example has been shown to me a few months ago. It was a coffee mug made out of about 120 faces with meshes. And it looked better than its sculptie equivalent made out of 2 sculpties with 2048 faces in total. so in this case mesh was 20 times more efficient. Just a few numbers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishtara Rothschild Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 ortiga Waco wrote: well Charolotte you obviously fairly new to sl, anyone that has played secondlife for several years now will know linden labs hasn't upgraded their servers in years and infact they are adding more sims to the out of date servers each day stressing them more and more, top on the addition of better graphics higher detailed meshs and physics of those meshs, and those servers will be under even more stress While I agree that SL is outdated (which is exactly why LL are working to introduce new features, such as mesh support), LL are constantly upgrading their servers :smileyindifferent: On the software side, we have frequent performance and stability updates. In addition, LL have added countless new features in the five years that I spent in SL. Flexi prims (talk about client lag), light sources, sculpties, WindLight, and Mono, just to name a few. The hardware is constantly improved as well. LL use several colocation facilities nowadays. They had to greatly improve the server backend back when user concurrency rapidly increased from 6,000 to 50,000, and they keep adding to it. They have also introduced one new sim server class after the other. By now, all older sim servers have been replaced with class 5 servers afaik. It's a bit ridiculous to claim that nothing has been upgraded. As for meshes: A single mesh object will replace several prims and sculpties. The overall number of polygons will go down, not up. I don't think that your concerns are justified. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charolotte Caxton Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 So the message to Linden Labs should be, 'update the servers', right, not 'don't introduce better technological advances that will improve our ingame enjoyment', right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zslash Cyberstar Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 for one, your talking about efficiency and server lagg and that they are stressed, now let me explain that the number one reason is SCULPTIES!... why? because when u have a necklace made up by 20sculpties, do you really know what that means? and comeon are you serious? you wanna double the max allowed vertices per sculpt? dude.... are you crazy??? 1. you talk about lagg, 2 you wanna increase whats causing the worst lagg ? lol... dude do some research before you say stuff like this, to me it sounds like you have no clue what mesh really is and second you sound scared of competition.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charolotte Caxton Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 @ Dogboat: I used to experience lag and slow rez times. I upgraded my system, now I wonder why people complain all the time instead of just investing a few dollars in better performance. V2 is all I have ever used and I love it. I have much respect for those like you that have been around for a very long time and I thank you for helping to make my Second Life the wonder it is today. I hope people don't leave and I hope meshes are the next logical step in the development of our world. I don't know about concurency and goofs nor do I know what a moap is. I do know in the few months I've been here, I have seen several improvements that have enhanced my overall experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielRavenNest Noe Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 ortiga Waco wrote: well Charolotte you obviously fairly new to sl, anyone that has played secondlife for several years now will know linden labs hasn't upgraded their servers in years Now I know you are clueless. We are currently on "Class 7" servers for the newest ones, meaning they have had 7 different server versions. The newest ones run on Intel "Nehalem" processors, which have only been around a couple of years. Also, lately they have gone to http delivery of textures from the Amazon cloud, which takes that workload off the servers. What has changed is the number of scripts on an average simulator, and also on an average avatar, and the prim count worn by avatars has increased a lot. So gains in server speed have been eaten up by those increases. And on the original topic, 3D models are more efficient and easier to make than sculpts, so they should improve things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogboat Taurog Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 DanielRavenNest Noe wrote: ortiga Waco wrote: well Charolotte you obviously fairly new to sl, anyone that has played secondlife for several years now will know linden labs hasn't upgraded their servers in years Now I know you are clueless. We are currently on "Class 7" servers for the newest ones, meaning they have had 7 different server versions. The newest ones run on Intel "Nehalem" processors, which have only been around a couple of years. Also, lately they have gone to http delivery of textures from the Amazon cloud, which takes that workload off the servers. What has changed is the number of scripts on an average simulator, and also on an average avatar, and the prim count worn by avatars has increased a lot. So gains in server speed have been eaten up by those increases. And on the original topic, 3D models are more efficient and easier to make than sculpts, so they should improve things. we are not on class 7 servers, most are still class 5. you my friend are the clueless one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Clary Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 you love V2, thats like saying you love offal as you have never tried anything else. yep you have a fast computer, most dont. Moap is media on a prim which was supposed to be a fab new feature of V2 where you could play games in real time. in fact it was almost the selling point of V2. i have never seen one game in the wild. I think the top reason why Moap is not used is because Viewer-1 adicted hesitate to switch to Viewer-2. And since most shop owners are very carefull with their customers they refuse to use technology that can not be seen by all residents. I myself wished all so often to use moap and honestly i hope for meshes arriving soon so that viewer-2 becomes mandantory. Then i will immediately start using this awesome feature in my shop ;-) Now beat me if you like ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charolotte Caxton Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 @ Dogboat: Comparing using V2 to eating crap is kinda offensive to me, but I get your point. My point was that if people come in to SL and only have V2 to use, they will not be stuck in their old outdated ways. I know there is a large vocal group of users that detest V2 mainly because it is not the old viewer and I understand peoples inherent resistance to change. It's human nature, thats ok. What needs to be discussed, as it is being done here, is that there is no need to fear change if that change is indeed beneficial. What we are attempting to do with this discussion, I believe, is alleviate fear by pointing out the benefits of new improvements. Media on a prim? That sounds interesting. Did a lot of people think that was gonna make SL a barren wasteland as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogboat Taurog Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Gaia Clary wrote: you love V2, thats like saying you love offal as you have never tried anything else. yep you have a fast computer, most dont. Moap is media on a prim which was supposed to be a fab new feature of V2 where you could play games in real time. in fact it was almost the selling point of V2. i have never seen one game in the wild. I think the top reason why Moap is not used is because Viewer-1 adicted hesitate to switch to Viewer-2. And since most shop owners are very carefull with their customers they refuse to use technology that can not be seen by all residents. I myself wished all so often to use moap and honestly i hope for meshes arriving soon so that viewer-2 becomes mandantory. Then i will immediately start using this awesome feature in my shop ;-) Now beat me if you like ;-) you could anyway :smileyvery-happy: is anyone still using V2 or is it just the noobs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogboat Taurog Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Charolotte Caxton wrote: @ Dogboat: Comparing using V2 to eating crap is kinda offensive to me, but I get your point. My point was that if people come in to SL and only have V2 to use, they will not be stuck in their old outdated ways. I know there is a large vocal group of users that detest V2 mainly because it is not the old viewer and I understand peoples inherent resistance to change. It's human nature, thats ok. What needs to be discussed, as it is being done here, is that there is no need to fear change if that change is indeed beneficial. What we are attempting to do with this discussion, I believe, is alleviate fear by pointing out the benefits of new improvements. Media on a prim? That sounds interesting. Did a lot of people think that was gonna make SL a barren wasteland as well? no, most in the know thought it was a waste of time, actually it had something worse than many realised, a way to beat your firewall. btw i tried kirstens and LLs versions and yet im back to using phoenix. its not that i'm addicted to it, its just better, faster, has useful tools and is generally nicer in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Clary Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 hmm. oops, i am a noob when i use v2, could be so ;-) Unfortunately i don't care if i am a noob or not. Fact is i use viewer-2 because it works best for me. But then that is my personal (noobish?) opinion. And maybe you are right. I should just start using moap and not care about my customers... hmm... A big moap noob i am Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guinevere Seibert Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Hey everyone, the original poster is right! However I think that he didn't go far enough, let's apply this logic to the real world too! Hell why not, great ideas come in many forms! I vote that we all revert technology back to the 1920's because there were no nuclear bombs back then and someone might use one of them badly. Then let's ban all imports to America so that we can stay isolated in our little 1920's world and not have to worry about outside content flowing into our country. Who needs to actually compete with quality products when we can ban them and put oven mitts on creators hands so it's hard to copy those foreign products too! Brilliant! Also growing into 2012 instead of 1920 would put a larger strain on our economy, much like the strain on SL servers by going forward instead of backwards! So hell, let's just always go backwards, I'm sure SL will always have a monopoly on the virtual 3D experience so there's nothing to worry about right? I mean it's simple logic people, turtle up and become incredibly isolationist like North Korea. That works great! Why should we as SL consumers be excited about higher level more quality content when it means the little man and their subpar products would be forced to upgrade or be phased out??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogboat Taurog Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Gaia Clary wrote: hmm. oops, i am a noob when i use v2, could be so ;-) Unfortunately i don't care if i am a noob or not. Fact is i use viewer-2 because it works best for me. But then that is my personal (noobish?) opinion. And maybe you are right. I should just start using moap and not care about my customers... hmm... A big moap noob i am of course what i meant was, you could set up moap for those 1000's of customers using V2 you could put on it V2 users only or something, im sure you could sort it out... although as i said earlier its very simple to create a false site using moap. take a screen shot of the sl log in screen overlay your transparent html, link, it to a php keylogger, hey presto! names and passwords! and straight through their firewall too! you think people will use it once they find that little gem out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitlin Loxingly Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Gaia Clary wrote: ortiga Waco wrote: arton sculpted prims allow a total of 1024 verticies, you would divide this number by 4 to get the number of poly's on a sculpt which is 256. 256x32 (the number of sculpts allowed on a vehicle not 30, that changed a few months ago with havok7) and you get 7680. AKA your suv there has twice as many poly's as a sculpt car would not vise versa. Sorry, but your calculation is wrong and i would like to give you a correction and allow me to add a bit more of background information: A standard Sculptie has always 1024 Faces (not vertices!) Due to the way how the underlaying mesh is constructed for sculpties (yes sculpties ARE meshes!) it can have at most 1089 vertices for planes (33*33 vertices) and at least 1024 vertices for torus (32*32 vertices). You can get smaller sculpties when you use viewer-2 for import. the smallest possible size for sculpties is 8*8 = 64 faces. But due to long (very long) standing bug in the used jpeg graphics libraries such small sculpties suffer from distortions and can not be uploaded lossless (even if the lossless checkmark is checked). Because sculpties use this very special mesh topology and because they use a fixed UV map they are very hard to texturize. Hence making sculpties IS a nightmare for 3D modellers. Face it. You just got used to them. 3D modellers outside of SL shake heads and run away screaming loud when i tell them what sculpties are about ;-) Meshes remove all constraints which are put on sculpties: You can have any number of verts/tris/quads/faces whatever you like most for your wording (ok, there is an upper limit of course). You can have your very own and special UV map which is mandatory to have if you want to make efficient(!) models. Thus constructing any model with meshes will in most cases be more efficient and in the absolute worst case be as efficient as a sculptie. The car example from earlier shows it exactly and its numbers are fully correct. Another very nice example has been shown to me a few months ago. It was a coffee mug made out of about 120 faces with meshes. And it looked better than its sculptie equivalent made out of 2 sculpties with 2048 faces in total. so in this case mesh was 20 times more efficient. Just a few numbers. there is still a problem with numbers there, if a sculptie has 1024 faces that would require 2048 vertices (4 vertices per face with 2 of the 4 being able to be used in the face adjacent) and becomes 2048 faces once it is passed into OpenGL and converted from quadrilaterals to triangles as OpenGL can not render quadrilaterals. a geometric solid sculptie can be made from a 63x64 mesh, which is 4032 vertices, effectively 4096 once stitching is taken into account, for a minimum of 3906 faces in a 64x64(x4294967296) sculptie map. You are absolutely right about shapes being able to be made better looking with less vertices than a sculpty, there are nearly endless numbers of shapes that can be made with numerically defined meshes that would use less vertices than the limitations imposed by sculpties. meshes also take up less hard drive space and less bandwidth to transmit than sculpties, a cvs text file compresses very well without lossiness, an image is limited in having to be lossless as well and lossless image compression algorithms are poor compression that make very little difference in the file size. That may not seem important at a cursory glance but smaller geometry files mean reduced bandwidth use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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