Why LL doesn't suspend clearly identifiable scam sellers in Marketplace?

[Yasojith]

Can't mention the seller's username due to ToS, so you can find someone selling "catwa catya bento mesh head" as "full perm" for L$105. That person using the original catwa photo too. And there are two, one star negative feedbacks saying don't buy them and its scam.

Those who using SL over one year know that is a definitely a scam seller by just looking the listing. I'm sure many have reported it, and I IMed to to catwa clip and they too might send DCMA.

I also send a ticket to LL about another item adn flaged it. Its "SOMEMORE / SaeBom mesh head RARE" I didn't buy that item because they sells over 10 rare items each L$125, nearly impossible for that price as each over L$3000. Someone put one star poor review too. And that gatcha creator is no longer in SL. So there is no way the creator can send DCMA. Received this reply from LL about my ticket.

// We are sorry to hear that you have had a negative experience in Second Life. If you own the copyright to the item or items in question, please file a formal notification according to the instructions found at http://secondlife.com/corporate/dmca.php. If you are not the copyright owner, you may wish to share this information with the person who holds the copyright. In order to ensure that all legal actions are properly executed with regard to your copyright concern, Support is not able to assist or directly intervene in copyright matters. Please be sure to follow the DMCA instructions linked above. Once again, we are sorry to hear that you are having a copyright issue within Second Life.//

But people keep buying from that scammer and disappointed, then buyers lose the faith about the entire marketplace.

Just wondering why LL can't use common sense and check the seller's selling items manually after customers flag those. That scammer is there over two months (noticed it as I'm collecting SOMEMORE gatchas) and really bad way as many other scammers also encouraged due to that. I'm writing here after doing all the things to stop that scammer because that scammer ruins the value of my huge SOMEMORE gatcha collection, and hope LL will get more attention about that scammer instead looking what kind of ToS I violated in this thread.  English is my second language so please excuse for my grammar mistakes.

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Yasojith

[Tari Landar]

You answered your own question, and as much as we may not like it, LL is doing precisely what they should, as directed by the law, regarding DMCAs. No one, but the person that owns the actual copyright can really do a whole lot about copyright theft. I know, it's not something any of us are very pleased with, but LL is not alone in their limited capabilities. The laws surrounding such, exist for a reason, and LL, much like the rest of the world, must follow them, and they do. They DO act swiftly when DMCA claims are filed properly, it just has to be done by the person that owns the copyright...not some random person. 

LL cannot, well, will not, simply shut down an entire store, even if a merchant breaks one or more TOS and someone decides to file a ticket stating so-unless they see some reason to(though many a store, like the one you mention, has been shut down by LL, there are still plenty that haven't). LL can no more know whether or not someone actually has license to sell something than you or I do. We can pretend we know, and we can think we're pretty sure, but we cannot know for certain, if we are not the original owner/creator/copyright owner, even when evidence might suggest that we're right...there are rarely ever any guarantees. 

No one is ruining the value of your gacha collection, and the fact that you even mention that at all, tells me you're not really at all concerned about copyright theft, but rather someone else undervaluing something you think to be more valuable. I don't even know why you're pissing on one listing that's  less than $3,000L, when there is another listed there for $300L-are you claiming that BOTH of these sellers are scammers, or anyone else re-selling inworld for less than $3,000L for that matter?(I've seen that inworld before, and it sure as hell isn't selling for $3,000L everywhere, lol)  I ran into a lot of folks like you while participating in countless breedables. People have an idea of what they think something is worth, or should be worth, they have an idea of what they think others should sell them at, and they have an idea of what they think the rarity level of something actually is. More often than not, they're dead wrong. You might value that one gacha at $3,000L, but that doesn't mean *I* have to. The same applied, and still does in breedables, or any other product that allows or is designed for re-selling(like gachas). People constantly saying "you're devaluing my very valuable and rare(insert whatever) by pricing it at a lower cost"...Uhh, no, I'm not, I'm setting a price for *mine*, and some lucky soul can buy it at that price-they can then either use it, or resell it at an even higher price if they so wish. I wasn't, devaluing the overall product, I wasn't lowering its rarity for others. I was setting a price *I* thought to be reasonable, whether or not it was under-priced to some(and I didn't much give two craps who thought otherwise...though it does get annoying being told such things). I still do the very same thing to this day, when I do sell breedables, I set the price *I* want, and I don't care what prices others want, or how much they paid into their own stock to get that one gem, or anything else they have to say. Unless there is some arbitrary rule about how much I can resell a certain product for(in which case, odds are good I have no interest in it anyway), I will sell things at price points I think fitting...not price points others think are fitting. 

 I'm not suggesting that this person you're talking about *isn't a scammer...its quite likely you're right on that. But LL still has to follow the laws, regulations, etc.. in place to deal with DCMAs, and if a creator doesn't want to deal with filing claims, then, that's all there is to it. Some don't want to, some will, most will likely be grateful you let them know, regardless as to whether or not they will do something about it. But at the end of the day, it's not LL's job to ensure we are all protecting our own copyrights. That responsibility sits squarely on our own shoulders(and sometimes the fight might not be worth it for some...for others, it very well may and they will pursue it).

And none of that has anything at all to do with someone devaluing your wonderful (to you) gacha collection. No one is losing faith in the entire marketplace just because some scammers do exist on there, either. They have always existed in sl, and they've yet to have the impact people think they do, or will. It's not pleasant, it kinda sucks really, but, they're not driving people away from the MP, or any other shopping..all of which is alive and well and has been since its inception. 

[ChinRey]

12 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

You answered your own question, and as much as we may not like it, LL is doing precisely what they should, as directed by the law, regarding DMCAs. No one, but the person that owns the actual copyright can really do a whole lot about copyright theft. I know, it's not something any of us are very pleased with, but LL is not alone in their limited capabilities. The laws surrounding such, exist for a reason, and LL, much like the rest of the world, must follow them, and they do.

That's only part of the story. There is no law that requires Linden Lab to host anything on their servers and they have a sovereign right to refuse any content they don't want for any reason or for no reason at all.

It's perfectly understandable that they are a bit cautious censoring the content in SL but there are no laws that would forbid them to do it.

[Tari Landar]

19 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

That's only part of the story. There is no law that requires Linden Lab to host anything on their servers and they have a sovereign right to refuse any content they don't want for any reason or for no reason at all.

It's perfectly understandable that they are a bit cautious censoring the content in SL but there are no laws that would forbid them to do it.

I didn't say there were laws stopping them from disallowing whatever content they desire. (though there are laws stopping them from allowing certain content, it doesn't apply to disallowing content) But if they DO allow it..they have to utilize the laws and processes in place when dealing with DMCAs, and theft is what this topic was about. Though people can claim something is copyright theft all they want, that doesn't always mean it *is, which is why only the actual owner of said copyright can do something about it..not LL, and not other residents. I'm rather glad other residents have one less option for flagging ***** willy nilly.  Even the OP made it clear they also flagged something because it devalues their own like item...if that's not a *****ty reason to want to flag something, I don't know what is, lol. 

[Paul Hexem]

To be fair, there is a good point in suggesting that LL should be at least a little bit proactive in protecting consumer faith in their platform, as it was put. Currently, the MP is like the wild west.

Laws generally outline the minimums or maximums. There's nothing stopping a company from taking additional measures. Part of the reason Amazon is taking over the world is because of how they correct customer service issues and don't just pass it off as "Too bad, law says we don't have to", even though they could pull that off if they wanted, in many cases.

[Yasojith]

It is not only about the copyright, but also copybotting and misleading listing. There is no any single good review on that so far. Hope everyone make little research about that seller before reply here. I would like to put few of the buyer comments made about that seller's products. 

Full of Sh@T
Posted December 22
Kim K. inspired head inside the box you are so full of crap and will be reported if i could give no stars i would

very bad
Posted December 25
with horrible animations, NO bento!!

no BENTO AO
Posted December 25
no BENTO AO copybot!!!

Fraud !!!
Posted December 23
Do not buy this Item.... its not a really catya Head ... its a fake... dont buy this Item!

NOT REAL - ITS SOME IMITATION OFF KIM K HEAD - HORRID
Posted December 24
HORRID FULL PERM HEAD,

*
Posted December 03
The shoes shown on the picture are not in the package!

Is a Joke what he Sell
Posted November 18
You get Summer Shoe but not this open Boots CHEATING . Not the Creator too but he Sell Full pem

Edited December 27, 2017 by Yasojith

[Yasojith]

If anyone wondering about the laws, here it is:

Cory Linden announced that using CopyBot or similar tools to copy intellectual property in violation of applicable laws was in violation of Second Life's Terms of Service.[15]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CopyBot#Official_Linden_Lab_statements

 

[QuestionMarkk]

This is absolutely horrible. This person is selling a lot of stolen stuff. Staring from stolen Vista Animations, through Meli Imako items, ending on stolen jewellery from [MANDALA]. It's just painful to watch because everything is so clear, it's all stolen. And I totally agree accounts like this should be closed immediately by Linden Lab.

Though all we can do is to notify the real creators when we recognize the items and wait until they file DMCA. 

[Yasojith]

7 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

I don't even know why you're pissing on one listing that's  less than $3,000L, when there is another listed there for $300L-are you claiming that BOTH of these sellers are scammers, or anyone else re-selling inworld for less than $3,000L for that matter?(I've seen that inworld before, and it sure as hell isn't selling for $3,000L everywhere, lol) 

There are two main types of gatcha, normal and rare. I mentioned about the rare one. There is no any other rare gatcha of that type in marketplace "right now" but in inworld, here is the screenshot of the real value of that rare item. (Its L$3999). Inworld Source: http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/City of Edo/86/120/1000 

Again I should say, its not about the problem of copyright or devaluing, its about copybotting by that scammer.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Yasojith

[Tari Landar]

Please stop using this one item which you've described as being sold for less than you think appropriate as an example of why you think a seller's store should be shut down. Use all of the other products as an example, sure, they're evidence enough. But you, yourself, said that someone pricing something less than $3,000L was devaluing YOUR gacha collection. I simply said that you don't get to pick what people price or value things at-even if their choice is far less than what you think it should be. Perhaps you should have left that part out  

I did agree with you that someone who is clearly  scammer should not be able to continue selling. I still agree that they should. I disagree with the belief that LL should somehow automatically know when a product does get copybotted, however. I also disagree with the belief that LL should somehow enforce every single instance of "this person is selling something that doesn't belong to them" report they are given *without the  actual creator of said item stating that they should. Does it suck? At times, yeah, it does. It's a far from perfect system (such a system doesn't exist).  But it's better than LL always acting on the belief that the person making a report is doing so truthfully.

This instance, it's pretty evident, but that doesn't apply to ALL instances-which is what I said, and also why creators DO have a process they can go through which will get folks like that shut down a lot easier. That process is why LL doesn't just let anyone make reports willy nilly. There are just as many instances of people making false "this is copybotted" reports as there are people who make truthful ones..or, rather, would be, if LL allowed people to just make such reports whenever they wanted. 

The best you can do, as a customer, or just a generally interested party, is let the original creator(s) know. If they want to pursue the issue, they can. If they choose not to, there is nothing more that can, or will, be done about it. Creators will appreciate that you care enough to let them know, even if they choose not to do anything about it. 

 

[Tari Landar]

6 hours ago, Gadget Portal said:

Part of the reason Amazon is taking over the world is because of how they correct customer service issues and don't just pass it off as "Too bad, law says we don't have to", even though they could pull that off if they wanted, in many cases.

I'm not real sure where you got the idea that Amazon fixes customer service issues that are out of their control, but they definitely don't, lol. They're fantastic at some customer service issues, primarily with items that they fulfill themselves. But they're just as bad as plenty of others when the item comes from a different seller/fulfillment center. I've never had an issue with an item they fulfill, and getting the issue resolved quickly. But dealing with the countless other sellers that sell through Amazon over the years..yeah I've had issues that Amazon won't help me with. They definitely pull the "we can't help you" crap when they very well could. They definitely have sellers that have less than positive reputations. They definitely allow sellers that shouldn't be allowed to continue, sellers that are selling fake/knockoff items, etc.... All of these things make them just as similar(in that fashion anyway) as LL. 

[Paul Hexem]

19 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

I'm not real sure where you got the idea that Amazon fixes customer service issues that are out of their control, but they definitely don't, lol. They're fantastic at some customer service issues, primarily with items that they fulfill themselves. But they're just as bad as plenty of others when the item comes from a different seller/fulfillment center. I've never had an issue with an item they fulfill, and getting the issue resolved quickly. But dealing with the countless other sellers that sell through Amazon over the years..yeah I've had issues that Amazon won't help me with. They definitely pull the "we can't help you" crap when they very well could. They definitely have sellers that have less than positive reputations. They definitely allow sellers that shouldn't be allowed to continue, sellers that are selling fake/knockoff items, etc.... All of these things make them just as similar(in that fashion anyway) as LL. 

I didn't say they fix all issues even the ones out of their control (although they have fixed some of those). I said they're taking over because they often go above and beyond what the law says.

There's nothing stopping LL from doing more than the minimum required by law except themselves.

[Tari Landar]

1 hour ago, Gadget Portal said:

I didn't say they fix all issues even the ones out of their control (although they have fixed some of those). I said they're taking over because they often go above and beyond what the law says.

There's nothing stopping LL from doing more than the minimum required by law except themselves.

True, LL could, if they so chose to, and they're the only ones stopping themselves from doing so.

I'm not sure it's reasonable to *expect them to, but they could. 

[Rya Nitely]

At least at the moment you have the reviews as a warning, but if the seller flagged the reviews as defamation then LL would remove them, thus leaving no warning for potential customers.

[Paul Hexem]

7 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

True, LL could, if they so chose to, and they're the only ones stopping themselves from doing so.

I'm not sure it's reasonable to *expect them to, but they could. 

Well yeah. Expecting it would be insane. Don't do that.

I was just saying that there was a fair complaint here, is all.

[Yasojith]

On 12/27/2017 at 8:24 PM, QuestionMarkk said:

This is absolutely horrible. This person is selling a lot of stolen stuff. Staring from stolen Vista Animations, through Meli Imako items, ending on stolen jewellery from [MANDALA]. It's just painful to watch because everything is so clear, it's all stolen. And I totally agree accounts like this should be closed immediately by Linden Lab.

Though all we can do is to notify the real creators when we recognize the items and wait until they file DMCA. 

Thanks for understanding the issue by using the common sense, and looking the moon instead the pointing finger. 

 

On 12/27/2017 at 4:28 PM, Gadget Portal said:

To be fair, there is a good point in suggesting that LL should be at least a little bit proactive in protecting consumer faith in their platform, as it was put. Currently, the MP is like the wild west.

Laws generally outline the minimums or maximums. There's nothing stopping a company from taking additional measures. Part of the reason Amazon is taking over the world is because of how they correct customer service issues and don't just pass it off as "Too bad, law says we don't have to", even though they could pull that off if they wanted, in many cases.

Exactly! That what we called being "practical". I wish they would be.

By the way there is no specific flagging option to flag "copybots". So when I asked about that from LL support, they told me the following, and I'm going to do so.

//Please try using the "Listing Violation" option. Or use the option that best suits the reason you are reporting the item//

Edited December 28, 2017 by Yasojith

[Rya Nitely]

I just had a look, and anyone who buys an item from this store only has themselves to blame. I had a look at the reviews, and I don't think LL would remove these reviews because they are based on the item. Maybe the insults should have been cooled down a bit, but most of the reviews wouldn't be removed. So, there are sufficient warnings, and a fool and his money applies.

[Pamela Galli]

1 hour ago, Rya Nitely said:

I just had a look, and anyone who buys an item from this store only has themselves to blame. I had a look at the reviews, and I don't think LL would remove these reviews because they are based on the item. Maybe the insults should have been cooled down a bit, but most of the reviews wouldn't be removed. So, there are sufficient warnings, and a fool and his money applies.

People who want something for almost nothing often wind up with nothing.

[Rya Nitely]

For whatever reason, all the items in that store are now gone. Perhaps it's due to this thread, and if so then Yasojith has achieved that goal. Posting about this type of activity is not a waste of time.

Edit: They may pop up under another name, and hopefully someone will post here again to expose it. It's a tool we have when feeling powerless.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Rya Nitely

[Yasojith]

3 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:

For whatever reason, all the items in that store are now gone. Perhaps it's due to this thread, and if so then Yasojith has achieved that goal. Posting about this type of activity is not a waste of time.

Edit: They may pop up under another name, and hopefully someone will post here again to expose it. It's a tool we have when feeling powerless.

I see, and many thanks for all of those who supported including LL. Yes, we all have to be alert about the scammers and copybotters if we want to have fair marketplace, as LL can't do it alone.

One more thing, as LL already took over the L$ cash balance of that scammer, it would be great if LL could refund to those genuine buyers who wasted money. Then LL can delete those bought items. As all the buying history recorded in a database, they can do it with few database searching. In that way customers will really impressed about the marketplace.