Sansar prices

[Darrius Gothly]

Thank you for pointing out that the Educational Versions of Maya and Autodesk are NOT usable for making anything useful or shareable.

Thus it comes down to ... either pay the hefty entry price or you are not allowed to participate in creation for Project Sansar.

Cha-CHINGGG!

[Polymath Snuggler]

This is what SL IS FOR, it's not going anywhere!

[Polymath Snuggler]

Maya LT was specifically included on my list as it's got an affordable monthly fee for use!!  It's 95% of the standard Maya software ( which you can get for free to learn! )  And doesn't cost 3600$ USD up front.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/243580/

 

[Darrius Gothly]

---

polysail wrote:

This is what SL IS FOR, it's not going anywhere!

---

 

My reflex is to respond to you in a perjorative manner. But instead I'll take the time to educate a bit.

Linden Lab is a company with limited resources and time. They have now been through several CEO's (and more than a handful of years) trying to break through some barrier that prevents them becoming "successful". They have tried other software platforms and packages .. and failed. They have tried other concepts .. and failed. They have purchased other successful companies .. and shuttered them.

They now have a much shorter time to break that barrier. No, they don't INTEND to take SL down. But when they have devoted a majority of their resources and time to a very expensive adventure and then fail? Again?

I seriously doubt SL will survive the "wind down" and demise of LL. But if you believe that somehow racking up one more spectacular and expensive failure will be simply shrugged off by the BoD and Investors, you should spend some time reviewing company histories of those in similar (or even better) circumstances. (spoiler alert! They didn't survive.)

 

[Darrius Gothly]

Time costs. Skills cannot be mastered by all. Of the people populating SL, only a very small percentage have the desire or interest in learning the skills or spending the money (even small money) to obtain the tools.

LL has dictated that only that small percentage be allowed to create. So instead of opening the doors wide to creators of all skills, they artificially limit the potential customer base.

And what will those chosen few create? An experience that does not really "click" with anyone. I've stared at my apartment floor in SL. I'm done. NEXT! Experiences worthy of spending time and money on are not things that can be created overnight by a single person .. or even a small group. You need an army.

So instead of taking the success they have and making it into something better, they are dumping it (in the sense that they are not going to update or modernize it) and chasing something that has a limited customer base, creates something with only passing interest to their customers' customers, and depends on specialized VR gear that will not be widely accepted among the average consumer for another 5-10 years at a minimum.

You are target-locked on the Shinies leaked by Ebbe. Shinies don't make for success, they only garner press. Long-term outlook is a whole different thing. I submit to you that when you stop looking at the shinies and focus on 2-3 years further .. you'll see the outcome as exactly the same as their other (now defunct) products. Pretty, but ...

[Polymath Snuggler]

I don't get how LL is "artificially" limiting a creator base when "skills cannot be mastered by all".

Simply put creating good 3D content requires expertise.  Prims were a neat idea for SL but realistically for the framerates that Sansar is attempting to run at ( 60 - 120 FPS ), they're just simply not viable.

There is no substitute for knowledge on how to create efficient content.  There are some really fancy shortcuts that have been created by the fore-runners of software designers ( like Pixologic ) but they're for optimizing already existing mesh assets.

The industry as a whole is always looking for new ways to make content creation easier, faster and more intuitive for artists.  But realistically if Walt Disney Studios hasn't developed a way to do it, with their budget, I wouldn't get your hopes up for Linden labs.

There's a reason we, the content designers still are "employed".  It's because making things properly is a skill.  While SL is a great place to learn, eventually when you want it to run at 120 FPS, you're going to have to learn something about optimization.

[Darrius Gothly]

---

polysail wrote:

I don't get how LL is "artificially" limiting a creator base when "skills cannot be mastered by all".

---

Okay, I'll simplify the concept for you.

They are demanding high levels of expertise .. NOT possessed by all .. in order to participate. The reason for that limitation is ... ummm .. cuz they wanna?

Your assertion is that mesh 3D objects are more optimized and easier to render than prim-based objects. Then why did the addition of Mesh to SL cause extreme lag, much slower rez times and higher than previous levels of data transfer? If that's optimization .. by golly I want someone to optimize my bank balance that way too!

You seem to believe the product wanted by most people is a place with infinite beauty, artistic poetry and perfection. But if that were true, we would never see people buying beginner kits or taking classes or even shopping at craft stores. No one would spend any money or even think about participating until they were highly skilled professionals.

I strongly disagree with your belief. IMO what most people want is a place to play, learn, explore and share. They want to participate. But since they don't have the skills already, and there won't BE a place to learn in ... they won't learn and thus won't participate. Lack of participation will result in .. (can you guess?) .. no customers. No customers results in .. no income.

So I remain firm in my belief, LL is limiting the pool of people willing to pay. They are doing so for whatever reason they have. But whatever that reason, the result will be a much smaller potential consumer base, a much smaller income potential, and ultimately a much smaller chance of success.

Going back to my car analogies: Porsches are nice cars, but many more people drive cars with moderate needs and prices. LL is welcome to turn their company into a  Porsche dealership. But don't be surprised when far fewer people drive their new "car" .. and even fewer still want to ride on Porsche buses.

[Polymath Snuggler]

I... err~ 

Okay~  I'm just going to try and ignore the condescension in your tone and presume you're really just uneducated on this topic.

You realize you're talking to someone who's worked extensively in this field right?  Worked in it for years.

I learned mesh before I came to SL~  I know about optimization.  The fact that mesh is superior to prims in efficiency is not a theory, it's a simple matter of numbers.  I'm not going to get into the individual counts of each specific prim shape and type, but I can point out one prim cube is 9X as complex as a simple mesh cube.  ( that's at it's most basic form, not including "tortured" prims ), the inefficiencies only get worse from there.  To reiterate that, a box being 9x as difficult to render as it's mesh counter part is the best numeric advantage, it only gets worse from there for the other prim types.

The "mesh based lag" you mentioned is because designers upload 100K- 1.2 million polygon objects to SL.   It's not because mesh in of itself is "bad" it's because there's such a thing as a clueless designer.  Just for a frame of reference, the content I'm describing with these polycounts can usually be done with 6-15K polys.  Yes that's a factor of eighty in inefficiency.  Yet you're sitting there going "jeez I wonder where all this lag is coming form?"

Polycounts (number of polygons in a mesh item) must be monitored ( on SL they weren't, they're just starting to do that now with Project QuickGraphics )  on Sansar you can bet your butt they will be.

You cannot render a scene composed of inefficient content at 120FPS (which is an occulus rift baseline number)  on current affordable tech ( I'm not counting having 4 + crazy super graphics cards in your PC )

So that's why the limitation.  It's not because LL hates you, or because they're clueless.  In fact it's completely the opposite.  They've  finally learned from their mistakes and are doing something right.

So ~ I can understand your confusion, but the reality of it is, SL is outdated a 12 year old dinosaur which can't just be "updated" into a 2016 modern era platform.  You are correct that Sansar is in all likelihood LL's last grasp at staying afloat.  But, while I understand you're attached to Second Life, I'm sorry, but the grim truth is LL needs to reach a wider user base, and they're not going to get that on SL no matter how much they improve it due to it's server architecture.

Sansar is, as I have mentioned before, a platform.  A platform ( or engine ) like Sansar will be competing with Unity, and Unreal4.  It inherently is not 'shiny' itself.  Much like those other engines it can make shiny things, or it can make cartoony things or if you want to, it can make an entire world comprised of just boxes~ ( yay minecraft! )

So yes, you are quite right.  Sansar won't be successful without users.  But Sansar isn't a virtual living space.  Sansar, by it's nature will attract different customers who have different needs.  So, we're back to apples and oranges.

Nyoooow~  I'm going back to work!

PS: Don't act all condescending towards the person with the technical knowledge  you just wind up looking silly!  Thankfully I like explaining and teaching things to people!!

[Pamela Galli]

---

polysail wrote:

I... err~ 

Okay~  I'm just going to try and ignore the condescension in your tone and presume you're really just uneducated on this topic.

You realize you're talking to someone who's worked extensively in this field right?  Worked in it for years.

I learned mesh before I came to SL~  I know about optimization.  The fact that mesh is superior to prims in efficiency is not a theory, it's a simple matter of numbers.  I'm not going to get into the individual counts of each specific prim shape and type, but I can point out one prim cube is 9X as complex as a simple mesh cube.  ( that's at it's most basic form, not including "tortured" prims ), the inefficiencies only get worse from there.  To reiterate that, a box being 9x as difficult to render as it's mesh counter part is the best numeric advantage, it only gets worse from there for the other prim types.

The "mesh based lag" you mentioned is because designers upload 100K- 1.2 million polygon objects to SL.   It's not because mesh in of itself is "bad" it's because there's such a thing as a clueless designer.  Just for a frame of reference, the content I'm describing with these polycounts can usually be done with 6-15K polys.  Yes that's a factor of

eighty

in inefficiency.  Yet you're sitting there going "jeez I wonder where all this lag is coming form?"

Polycounts (number of polygons in a mesh item) must be monitored ( on SL they weren't, they're just starting to do that now with Project QuickGraphics )  on Sansar you can bet your butt they will be.

You

cannot

render a scene composed of inefficient content at 120FPS (which is an occulus rift baseline number)  on current affordable tech ( I'm not counting having 4 + crazy super graphics cards in your PC )

So that's

why

the limitation.  It's not because LL hates you, or because they're clueless.  In fact it's completely the opposite.  They've  finally learned from their mistakes and are doing something

right

.

So ~ I can understand your confusion, but the reality of it is, SL is outdated a 12 year old dinosaur which can't just be "updated" into a 2016 modern era platform.  You are correct that Sansar is in all likelihood LL's last grasp at staying afloat.  But, while I understand you're attached to Second Life, I'm sorry, but the grim truth is

LL needs to reach a wider user base, and they're not going to get that on SL no matter how much they improve it due to it's server architecture.

Sansar is, as I have mentioned before, a platform.  A platform ( or engine ) like Sansar will be competing with Unity, and Unreal4.  It inherently is not 'shiny' itself.  Much like those other engines it can make shiny things, or it can make cartoony things or if you want to, it can make an entire world comprised of just boxes~ ( yay minecraft! )

So yes, you are quite right.  Sansar won't be successful without users.  But Sansar isn't a virtual

living

space.  Sansar, by it's nature will attract different customers who have different needs.  So, we're back to apples and oranges.

Nyoooow~  I'm going back to work!

PS: Don't act all condescending towards the person with the technical knowledge  you just wind up looking silly!  Thankfully I like explaining and teaching things to people!!

---

Re bolded part:  I am not at all technical but If I rez a standard cube inworld, the physics and download cost is 0.1 and the server cost 0.5. If I upload a mesh cube and use that cube as the physics shape, the download cost is 0.1, physics 0.4, server 0.5.  So in what sense is a regular prim cube less efficient/optimized?

[Polymath Snuggler]

An excellent question!~

If you pop into wireframe mode you can see that a prim is in fact subdivided, even as a flat and basic cube.

Your simplest mesh box will have 8 verticies, and 12 triangles composing it.

A basic prim 56 verticies and 108 triangles.



I'm not entirely certain what the logic for subdividing the basic prim was.

I'm sure it has something to do with making the prim bend and twist and taper in world~  But at the end of the day the prim is inefficient to render.

Mind you, you are correct about the prim being efficient over it's mesh cousin in other regards.

It's download cost is lower as your viewer has a basic prim box cached at all times, so it doesn't have to go to the server and ask the server "hey how's this box made."   In that fashion~prims are very efficient, there is minimal network cost for using them.

Likewise with the physics calculation~ with the prim it already knows that value ( cached ) so it doesn't have to ask the server.  Whereas with the mesh box your viewer has to specifically go and ask the server "what is this mesh's physics shape??"~ when it deals with the mesh box. So again, the prim is efficient in that regard.

However both download costs are network traffic costs.  Which LL cares a TON about as every bit you download costs them USD~.

The render cost, is an ongoing 'cost' that your computer has to deal with in order to present you a pretty picture of a box in SL once all the downloading is done.  That is dependant upon how many verticies and faces comprise the cube, and that alone.  That render cost is 'paid' every microsecond ~( usually 15-60 times per second ) by your graphics card in terms of time that it takes to think before it puts the picture on your screen~

So, while your graphics card is exceptionally great at drawing literally millions of triangles per second, it starts to get a little bogged down by polycounts after you give it too much of a workload, and your FPS drops!!

Which is why Sansar, with it's 120 FPS target benchmark due to LL's obsession with making it compatible with the occulus doothingie, needs efficient assets.

Presently SL, even with a decent graphics card, once you turn on the visual bells and whistles seems to tank at 15-40 FPS with that number falling under 10 FPS on lower systems or with avatar impostors turned down.

The quickgraphics beta viewer attempts to approach this problem by auto-derendering any avatars above a certain complexity so that your computer doesn't have to work as hard, but it's a band-aid on a much larger problem.

Anyhow!! Hope that explains it!!  ~

EDIT:
I figured while I'm screenshotting things in wireframe mode, I may as well put graphical evidence of what a bad designer does.  ( okay ~ maybe bad is a bit harsh...   inexperienced? ) 



Behold~ !  The 30,000 triangle, 15606 vertex cube.  It still looks like a cube, but it's going to have a whopping download cost and an even more non-sensical render cost.  Both the upload cost and the land impact of the cube will go up to reflect that Linden Labs frowns on your lack of polygon efficiency, but if that box is supposed to be sitting atop someone's head, suddenly people don't care quite so much.

The problem is people do this.  Not with a cube obviously.  But a lot of SL designers have an obsession with adding every single little bit of string~ every hair~ every microwrinkle in their dress that they made.   Lo~ and behold mesh "is the cause of all lag."

Why didn't LL add in an accounting system for worn mesh objects?  Beats me!!  HUGE goof in my opinion~  but that's water under the bridge.   Seeing how they're now addressing the problem in SL ~ and listening to Ebbe talk about Sansar efficiency etc etc~ I'm confident they won't be making that mistake again.

Which is also ~ why I made the comment earlier in this thread, that "I wasn't sure all SL merchants would make the cut for Sansar" as many of the "big brand" merchants in SL still have horrendous topology.    If the Sansar marketplace is ranked based on topology and render complexity, it will be a very very different scene.

[arton Rotaru]

---

polysail wrote:

 

I'm not entirely certain what the logic for subdividing the basic prim was.

I'm sure it has something to do with making the prim bend and twist and taper in world~  But at the end of the day the prim is inefficient to render.

---

That's most likely because of the per vertex lighting with the forward renderer. Deferred rendering came years later to Second Life. Extreme lowpoly surfaces look quite ugly when lit under per vertex lighting.

The torturing of the prims is dynamic. So I don't think the subdivision has anything to do with that.

 

[Polymath Snuggler]

Ah HA!  That was far before my time.  Good bit of insight!!  Thank you!

[Darrius Gothly]

---

polysail wrote:

[...]

PS: Don't act all condescending towards the person with the technical knowledge  you just wind up looking silly!  Thankfully I like explaining and teaching things to people!!

---

Any "condescension" you may feel you detect in my posts is due to the simple fact that I seem to be having a very difficult time explaining a very basic concept to you. I do not normally have this much trouble, but in an attempt to make myself more clearly understood, I am using more and more basic terminology to explain my point. If I've "dumbed it down" too far .. my apologies. But I still have not made you understand the basics of my position.

The "Science" behind what can and should be done are not in contention. I am one of those that has lived on the bleeding edge for my entire professional career. I no longer live out there though, owing to my own choices and circumstances. But I still "get it."

However the "Reality" behind what can and should be done NEVER parallels the "Science". The Reality perspective is a mix of Technology Science and Human Science .. and just plain ole "gut". The "gut" I use as my reference is one built from years of living on that bleeding edge .. bleeding a lot .. and learning a lot lot lot. (The best lessons in life are those we barely survive.)

What LL is proposing with the tidbits they've leaked on Project Sansar point to a goal that is purely Science based and furthermore intended only to meet the needs of the company. They are totally neglecting the needs (and desires and habits and history) of the known user base.

It does not matter to me that much at all what the hardware can do, how optimized the science of 3D rendering has become, or what pretty perfect things can be built with advanced tools and hours of training and experience. What matters to me a whole lot more is what people want, what they are willing to spend money on .. and what they have a demonstrated history of spending money on.

I don't see anything in Project Sansar that considers the customer's wishes or desires or history. I only see "Oooh .. shiny" and some ephemeral promise of what LL says they think will save their bacon.

I dunno about you polysail, but when I'm trying to find my way out of the woods and I'm standing on a well marked trail .. I usually follow the trail and try NOT to blaze a new path through known quicksand, brambles and crevasses.

[arton Rotaru]

---

Pamela Galli wrote:

Re bolded part:  I am not at all technical but If I rez a standard cube inworld, the physics and download cost is 0.1 and the server cost 0.5. If I upload a mesh cube and use that cube as the physics shape, the download cost is 0.1, physics 0.4, server 0.5.  So in what sense is a regular prim cube less efficient/optimized?

---

As long as a prim can make use of the Havok default collision shapes, it will cost 0.1 in physics weight. Unfortunately we can't reference these default shapes on custom mesh uploads. As soon as you start to torture the prim cube, it will cost 0.4 as well.

[Darrius Gothly]

Okay, I think I finally see where the divergence is occurring.

Mesh was introduced into SL and created immense lag and server load. NOT because it was a technologically more taxing feature, but because the "rank and file" didn't know how to use it properly. That caused a problem for LL.

Two solutions: A) Fix the technology so people don't make mistakes .. or B) Fix the people by allowing only "smart" people to use it.

The Project Sansar choice is: __________ (fill in the blank)

[Polymath Snuggler]

Both!

Fix the people by teaching them!  Thankfully learning about polycounts and render efficiency is just a few clicks away on youtube~ for those who actually care to look!

Fix the tech by making it more obvious and user friendly!  ( better feedback! )

SL is finally implementing features to raise user ( and designer ) awareness about mesh rendering complexity costs.  I'm sure Sansar will have a similar type of indicator.  ( Hopefully even better ones!! )

Sadly, due to the framerate expectations that Sansar has on it, it only really has one option: well designed (optimized) mesh assets.   The type that every other game engine in the entire world relies upon and uses.  So~~ SL people will have to learn a little bit more.  Every other content designer won't even bat an eye.  After all Second Life is the only game type platform without incredibly restrictive polycount rules for content submission.  That's okay!~!  Necessity will dictate improvement~  I have very few doubts that LL will get their builders to populate the new world; as unemployed 3D artists aren't exactly a rarity.

I'm sure you'll manage to come up with some horrible gloom and doom scenario with this new-found knowledge but!  I'm pretty confident that the average mesh designer on SL will adapt to these new circumstances by the time Sansar rolls around and actually becomes 'a thing'~  

Anyhooo !!  Glad everyone understands this stuff a little better!!~~ back to Bento testing for me!!

[Darrius Gothly]

---

polysail wrote:

(some rose-colored glasses fantasy stuff)

(then some more tech stuff)

I'm sure you'll manage to come up with some horrible gloom and doom scenario ...

(and then departed to go spend more time honing tech skills)

---

 

Apparently you see the path to salvation in technology. You are welcome to continue on in that same opinion. I will continue to maintain my opinion based on evaluation of the entire company and the market. We remain at odds.

Be well and safe.

[Sassy Romano]

I'm just replying to Darius' post because I can't be bothered to pick on any particular point.

The issue is right up there that the target frame rate is aimed at Oculus Rift.  What a lovely idea... until you stop for a moment to figure out just how many of your potential users will have one or plan to get one.  First off, Oculus Rift doesn't even sell one retail so it's basically down to Samsung Gear VR at present.

Am I going to rush out to buy a Samsung S6/Note 4 or higher to even begin down that path?  No i'm not.  Am I going to go out and spend several hundred on a VR headset to play with LL's next platform?  No I'm not and yet I am highly invested in a virtual world so if i'm not a potential customer, exactly who is?!

Of course it will be usable without such hardware but as i've said before, without that edge, other platforms already exist and some of the touted use cases that have been presented are the same ones that have been trotted out and failed for SL.

Those of us who were around for M Linden's epic fail with the failed attempt to take SL "behind the firewall" and offer it to corporates...who have absolutely no use in the main for dressed up avatars sitting in virtual conference rooms.  For this type of customer, if it doesn't run in a browser and on a typical non specialist GPU accelerated laptop, it just won't take off.

Education?  Maybe this time they'll factor in about providing some core platform tools that meet presentation and communication needs.  Every student will need an Oculus Rift type device?  Fail!

Also, the notion that people will "just learn" to make efficient content hasn't been demonstrated to be the case within SL.  Instead, some creators have made a big success out of marketing "high detail, high polygon" offerings simply because within SL, we have the ability to cam in to within a few cm.  (Darrius, 2.54cm = 1 inch, so that's a couple of inches for you.  I felt obliged to clarify that for you, with you being an old luddite fart and all that )

If the plan is to ensure that all content that's imported meets strict criteria, that's a fine goal but then the content will ultimately be limited to an equally limited audience because over and over LL forgets the key question:-

"What is the business problem that this is solving and for whom?"

(anyway, that's a post bomb because i'm not going to discuss the above, there's no point, anyone that knows me enough, knows i'm always right *beams*)

[Pamela Galli]

---

polysail wrote:

An excellent question!~

If you pop into wireframe mode you can see that a prim is in fact subdivided, even as a flat and basic cube.

Your simplest mesh box will have 8 verticies, and 12 triangles composing it.

A basic prim 56 verticies and 108 triangles.



I'm not entirely certain what the logic for subdividing the basic prim was.

I'm sure it has something to do with making the prim bend and twist and taper in world~  But at the end of the day the prim is inefficient to render.

 

Mind you, you are correct about the prim being efficient over it's mesh cousin in other regards.

It's download cost is lower as your viewer has a basic prim box cached at all times, so it doesn't have to go to the server and ask the server "hey how's this box made."   In that fashion~prims are very efficient, there is minimal network cost for using them.

 

Likewise with the physics calculation~ with the prim it already knows that value ( cached ) so it doesn't have to ask the server.  Whereas with the mesh box your viewer has to specifically go and ask the server "what is this mesh's physics shape??"~ when it deals with the mesh box. So again, the prim is efficient in that regard.

However both download costs are network traffic costs.  Which LL cares a TON about as every bit you download costs them USD~.

 

The render cost, is an ongoing 'cost' that your computer has to deal with in order to present you a pretty picture of a box in SL once all the downloading is done.  That is dependant upon how many verticies and faces comprise the cube, and that alone.  That render cost is 'paid' every microsecond ~( usually 15-60 times per second ) by your graphics card in terms of time that it takes to think before it puts the picture on your screen~

 

So, while your graphics card is exceptionally great at drawing literally millions of triangles per second, it starts to get a little bogged down by polycounts after you give it too much of a workload, and your FPS drops!!

Which is why Sansar, with it's 120 FPS target benchmark due to LL's obsession with making it compatible with the occulus doothingie, needs efficient assets.

 

Presently SL, even with a decent graphics card, once you turn on the visual bells and whistles seems to tank at 15-40 FPS with that number falling under 10 FPS on lower systems or with avatar impostors turned down.

 

The quickgraphics beta viewer attempts to approach this problem by auto-derendering any avatars above a certain complexity so that your computer doesn't have to work as hard, but it's a band-aid on a much larger problem.

Anyhow!! Hope that explains it!!  ~

 

EDIT:

I figured while I'm screenshotting things in wireframe mode, I may as well put graphical evidence of what a bad designer does.  ( okay ~ maybe bad is a bit harsh...   inexperienced? ) 

 



 

 

 

Behold~ !  The 30,000 triangle, 15606 vertex cube.  It still looks like a cube, but it's going to have a whopping download cost and an even more non-sensical render cost.  Both the upload cost and the land impact of the cube will go up to reflect that Linden Labs frowns on your lack of polygon efficiency, but if that box is supposed to be sitting atop someone's head, suddenly people don't care quite so much.

The problem is people

do

this.  Not with a cube obviously.  But a lot of SL designers have an obsession with adding every single little bit of string~ every hair~ every microwrinkle in their dress that they made.   Lo~ and behold mesh "is the cause of all lag."

 

Why didn't LL add in an accounting system for worn mesh objects?  Beats me!!  HUGE goof in my opinion~  but that's water under the bridge.   Seeing how they're now addressing the problem in SL ~ and listening to Ebbe talk about Sansar efficiency etc etc~ I'm confident they won't be making that mistake again.

 

Which is also ~ why I made the comment earlier in this thread, that "I wasn't sure all SL merchants would make the cut for Sansar" as many of the "big brand" merchants in SL still have horrendous topology.    If the Sansar marketplace is ranked based on topology and render complexity, it will be a very very different scene.

---

I do know how many triangles in a prim cube, and I do understand that in general more tris mean more work for a computer. Of course. And also that SL does not like a number of things such as narrow triangles. What I was referring to is what I have read about SL prims being sort of built into Havok so they are actually already optimized in some respects.

[Pamela Galli]

---

arton Rotaru wrote:

---

Pamela Galli wrote:

Re bolded part:  I am not at all technical but If I rez a standard cube inworld, the physics and download cost is 0.1 and the server cost 0.5. If I upload a mesh cube and use that cube as physics shape, the download cost is 0.1, physics 0.4, server 0.5.  So in what sense is a regular prim cube less efficient/optimized?

---

As long as a prim can make use of the Havok default collision shapes, it will cost 0.1 in physics weight. Unfortunately we can't reference these default shapes on custom mesh uploads. As soon as you start to torture the prim cube, it will cost 0.4 as well.

---

Thanks Arton, that was the information I had recalled reading in the mesh forum. 

[DartAgain]

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

Customer: "Hi, i've just bought your [product name] in SL and i'd like to use it in Sansar, can I have a free delivery there too please?" Merchant: "Sansar and SL are different platforms...yes I know the currency is the same... I understand your frustration but you'll need to purchase it again." Customer: "Wait, i've just looked and you're charging 30% more in Sansar in SL, you're a money grubbing thieving merchant, i'm never buying from you again!" I can honestly say that i'm glad I won't be selling anything in Sansar

---

Belated reply: Ugg, that's true. LL can monetize their pocket lint and I'm the bad guy? Fine, I'll wear an eye patch and put the reasoning in the product description.

 

 

[DartAgain]

---

polysail wrote:

It

isn't my analogy.

---

No, just no. Today we're going for the Wordpress of virtual worlds. Just when you thought the "SL is going to be the 3D web" was finally over. That one lasted for a few years before people realized that SL wasn't an internet platform and wasn't going to be introducing widely adopted virtual worlds protocols.

 

 

 

[DartAgain]

---

polysail wrote:

Both!

 

SL is finally implementing features to raise user ( and designer ) awareness about mesh rendering complexity costs.  I'm sure Sansar will have a similar type of indicator.  ( Hopefully even better ones!! )

 

Sadly, due to the framerate expectations that Sansar has on it, it only really has one option: well designed (optimized) mesh assets.   The type that every other game engine in the entire world relies upon and uses.  So~~ SL people will have to learn a little bit more.  Every other content designer won't even bat an eye.  After all Second Life is the 

only

game type platform without incredibly restrictive polycount rules for content submission.  That's okay!~!  Necessity will dictate improvement~  I have very few doubts that LL will get their builders to populate the new world; as unemployed 3D artists aren't exactly a rarity.

I'm sure you'll manage to come up with some horrible gloom and doom scenario with this new-found knowledge but!  I'm pretty confident that the average mesh designer on SL will adapt to these new circumstances by the time Sansar rolls around and actually becomes 'a thing'~  

Anyhooo !!  Glad everyone understands this stuff a little better!!~~ back to Bento testing for me!!

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Well, to play devils advocate, LL kind of made its own mess that they have to optimize for. And polygon counts aren't really much of a thing these days. Even minimal specs with a modest graphics card can handle some decent polygon counts. The evil is in other areas. But those game engines you mention do a much better job of handling resources that Land Impact makes look evil.

Point being that if LL develops something sane, then mesh optimization doesn't have to be such an issue with a small dose of common sense.

It's possible that Sansar will try to put too much limits on easier, more sane mesh practices. Especially if they're going to claim that it can work well on mobile too.

Land Impact expects you to get pretty wonky with optmiizations. And of course if land really is cheap, it means resources are sparse, because we're not talking land, we're talking the computing and bandwidth resources LL is going to give for that price point.

But just to add to Darrius point, consider this: At SL's peak, you could bog your sim down with as much as you wanted to and people would suffer through the lag. As a matter of fact, any in-world shopping (which was the majority activity at the time) was a test of patience in any popular shop or mall.

Just saying that while a smooth running experience is important, it's not what got us here and people were willing to slog through it regardless of failed teleports, lag, mangled prims and mis-use of textures, "No Texture" bodies and faces and the occassional head in the butt. So there is more to this than the tech. I'm not sure if LL really knows yet what the secret sauce is.

 

[Chic Aeon]

"

Yes, someone official from the lab did state that the original reason the prim has so many vertices is because of light and reflection.

 

And yes, no matter what the uploader might say, a mesh cube is much more efficient than a prim .

 

And yes, Second Life is not a "a qualified educational institution" (from the Autodesk TOS) unless someone from an accredited or otherwise qualified institution started teaching class in SL. I taught at a college for over twenty years and they drummed these TOS terms into us over and over along with "fair use" and copyrights for educational use.

 

It is definitely not mesh per se that can cause lag and major viewer issues. It i people who have no clue what low poly gaming assets are (and ones that are still uploading the free daes from the web which has been against the TOS for over two years now).  Mesh is not the villian here *wink*

 

AND while I still say we can't know any of this yet, the fact that Maya and other 3D software is very expensive does not limit folks that WANT to make mesh objects. Blender is free. Yes, it is hard but there are tons of very helpful folks on the mesh board. That's how I made it though.

 

 Edit after I finished reading the thread ---

 

There are plenty of very good SL  designers making low poly mesh with actualy physics models (OMG). I do agree however that there are also plenty (top name designers) who are not. And those guys DO use Maya (yes, I asked LOL).  So which software is used has nothing to do with what kind of mesh is uploaded -- streamlined or laggy. It's all about the person behind the mouse and keyboard.

 

 

 

 

[ChinRey]

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polysail wrote:

I'm not entirely certain what the logic for subdividing the basic prim was.

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They're "throw-away" vertices for the standardized LOD model system. With prims and sculpts LOD models are automatically generated by eliminating every fourth vertice for each level.

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polysail wrote:

Mind you, you are correct about the prim being efficient over it's mesh cousin in other regards.

It's download cost is lower as your viewer has a basic prim box cached at all times, so it doesn't have to go to the server and ask the server "hey how's this box made."   In that fashion~prims are very efficient, there is minimal network cost for using them.

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That is right. Prims are indeed faster to render than even the most efficient mesh in Second Life. Nobody but nobody makes more efficient mesh for SL than me and I still notice they are slightly laggier than prim builds. The reason for that must be something that happens before the models are sent to the gpu but it's still a very real source of client side lag. It shouldn't be relevant for a virtual world made for mesh from the start though.

 

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polysail wrote:

Why didn't LL add in an accounting system for worn mesh objects?  Beats me!!  HUGE goof in my opinion~  but that's water under the bridge.   Seeing how they're now addressing the problem in SL ~ and listening to Ebbe talk about Sansar efficiency etc etc~ I'm confident they won't be making that mistake again.

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Ummm... exactly how are they "now addressing the problem in SL"? I still can't see any evidence of LL taking client side lag seriously in any way, quite the contrary. That silly Quick Graphics hack certainly does not count as a serious attempt to fix the problem and I don't know of anything else they've done about it.