about the new SL and Linden dollar

[Charli Infinity]

The new virtual world Linden lab is working on..what's it called now? Is it still SL2?...

Will it use the same Linden dollar currency we use in current SL?

or will Linden dollar here be transferable there?

 

and extra: what exactly are the next gen platforms?

[Bobbie Faulds]

We don't know yet...As far as I know it's still in Alpha stages. No real details have been released about it.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Charli Infinity wrote:

The new virtual world Linden lab is working on..what's it called now?

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It hasn't officially been given a name yet.

 

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Charli Infinity wrote:

Is it still SL2?...

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It never was.

 

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Charli Infinity wrote:

Will it use the same Linden dollar currency we use in current SL?

or will Linden dollar here be transferable there?

---

I assume it'll be the same.  Regardless, Ebbe stated that our money, names and contacts will be transferable.

 

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Charli Infinity wrote:

and extra: what exactly are the next gen platforms?

---

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here.

...Dres

[KarenMichelle Lane]

Simply stated no one knows what the final marketing name of the new [Linden Lab] Virtual Word product will be when it's released. The Linden lab project code name doesn't seem to be leaked as of yet. Folks are calling it SL2. The currency system that it will be using is not set in stone either at this time. But it was assured that it would allow for a upgrade path for existing SL Account Holders.

The other project in the news is currently called High Fidelity.It is safe to say that this headline describes the 2nd project correctly: "Second Life Founder, Philip Rosedale, Is Quietly Creating a Next-Generation Virtual World"

Here are articles regarding these endeavors and a nice long thread for you to read regarding the Linden Lab project..

Linden Lab Links:

http://www.lindenlab.com/

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2014/06/linden-lab-building-second-life-2.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22229664.000-second-life-20-virtual-world-recreates-the-real-you.html#.VNUkkxEtEdU

High Fidelity Links:

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/high-fidelity/

https://highfidelity.io/

https://www.facebook.com/HighFidelityInc

http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/531751/the-quest-to-put-more-reality-in-virtual-reality/

http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/19/5732386/high-fidelity-philip-rosendale-telepresence-second-life-hands-on

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Fidelity_Inc

https://highfidelity.io/blog/

https://github.com/highfidelity/hifi

http://singularityhub.com/2013/11/12/second-life-founder-philip-rosedale-is-quietly-creating-a-next-generation-virtual-world/

http://blog.nalates.net/category/high-fidelity/

http://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/27tizr/who_wants_help_building_and_testing_out_high/

and now the SL Answers Threads:

Index of Threads: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message?filter=labels%2Clocation&location=category%3AForums&location=category%3AForums&q=High+Fidelity

The Big One: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Linden-Lab-is-building-a-NEW-virtual-world/m-p/2753476/highlight/true#M184689

Very little facts are included in all these articles & blogs. Much of this is speculation and desires. Make sure you check that any factoid is directly attributed to the Linden Lab or High Fidelity development or management teams. Even then marketing decisions are not even in progress as there is nothing to market except innovative technology and methods. I suspect several key business relationships will be forged long before a finished and integrated VW product is officially announced.

Expect to hear about patent and partnership announcements over the next 18 months and possibly early technology releases in the VR [Virtial Reality] & VW [Virtual World] product spaces. I can imagine some interesting medical uses for some of what they are developing.

EDITED: To separate the Linden Lab project links from the High Fidelity links and to clarify the existence of the 2 VW projects. Thank you Vania Chaplin

 

[Vania Chaplin]

Ohoh.. As far as I know, High Fidelity is a new project by Philip Rosedale not linked with Linden Lab. It is an open source project.

The new virtual world project by Linden Lab, as afirst anounced, is a proprietary one, that Elbe assured that at least currency, names and friendlist would be transferable.

In short, there are two new virtual worlds in development now, and everything else than this is pure speculation.

[KarenMichelle Lane]

---

Vania Chaplin wrote:

Ohoh.. As far as I know, High Fidelity is a new project by Philip Rosedale not linked with Linden Lab. It is an open source project.

The new virtual world project by Linden Lab, as afirst announced, is a proprietary one, that Elbe assured that at least currency, names and friendlist would be transferable.

In short, there are two new virtual worlds in development now, and everything else than this is pure speculation.

---

Thanks for that reply - I separated the links I included into the LL and HF groups and clarified in my text the existence of the 2 projects. I hate when I post before doing a proper edit - . Mea culpa

[Cathy Foil]

It will not be named SL2 or Second Life 2.0.  Linden Lab's has been very clear on this.  They have also made it very clear that this new virtual world, while very similar in many ways to SL, will be a its own product.

I am sure LL did this so the new virtual world can have its own TOS and limits that will be different than SL's.  I sure hope it will in anycase.  I am hoping that LL has learned from its past mistakes and successes with SL.

The biggest problems I see in SL is not the technology or code or graphics.  In my opinion it is the rules that govern how SL can be used that is the biggest problems.  The managerial decisions that have been made in other words.

Personally I hope that only premium members will be able to sell inworld or on the MarketPlace.  Why?  Because this would help stem the tide to what I call the "Economic Race To The Bottom".  When there is absolutely no cost to entering, manufacturing and selling in the market content creators who don't need any sort of economic return for their work end up flooding the market driving prices down to ridiculously low levels.  They are happy to even receive a few pennies for their work.  Couple this with a Full Perm system that doesn't allow the original content creator the absolute ability to set a minimum price their products can be resold at and you have a recipe for disaster.  Yes I know they can have it written in their terms what prices their items can be resold at.  I am talking built into the permissions settings a new field where they can input a minimum price that object can be sold at making impossible for resellers to sell it for less.  Personally I like the way IMVU handles items that can be resold by others. 

IMVU the resell price can never be lower than the original price.  While yes this means full perm prices have to be very low the original content creator always gets the same amount every time their item is sold no matter who sells it.  For example if they sell a pair of shoes full perm for L$300 and someone buys it to resell and sells it for L$400.  Every time the shoes sell for L$400 the original content creator gets L$300 and the other L$100 goes to the reseller.  This encourages resellers to add something extra to the shoes whether it is a better texture or script or pairing it with another item.  It encourages creativity and adding value to the item making it more valuable.  Just the opposite of how SL works currently.

Another reason for allowing only Premium Members to sell would be to help stop the practice of ripping mesh from games and other online sources and or for that matter reselling copybot items.  Since premium members have to give a credit card or bank account information people engaged in such practices won't because now their real life identities can be easily tracked down by authorities.  It won't stop it completely but it will sure keep it to a minimum.

Free accounts should still be available.  They should still be able to buy items but just not be able to sell or give items to other accounts.

 

[Charli Infinity]

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Cathy Foil wrote:

IMVU the resell price can never be lower than the original price.  While yes this means full perm prices have to be very low the original content creator always gets the same amount every time their item is sold no matter who sells it.  For example if they sell a pair of shoes full perm for L$300 and someone buys it to resell and sells it for L$400.  Every time the shoes sell for L$400 the original content creator gets L$300 and the other L$100 goes to the reseller.  This encourages resellers to add something extra to the shoes whether it is a better texture or script or pairing it with another item.  It encourages creativity and adding value to the item making it more valuable.  Just the opposite of how SL works currently.

---

This would never work in SL for sure and not in SL2 if they don't do something about the copybotters and texture rippers. It benefits the full perm creator too much and if they receive royalty for ever sale then it is not really full perm. If full perm is L$300 and the resell is L$400, people will just buy the full perm for L$300 and the texture rippers will just spread the textures for free like nobody's bussiness. 

[Charli Infinity]

Where exactly did Ebbe announced that names, contacts and L$ will be transferable? Links...

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Charli Infinity wrote:

Where exactly did Ebbe announced that names, contacts and L$ will be transferable? Links...

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Here on the forum.  Look in his forum profile for posts he has made here in the thread Linden Lab is Building a New World

[Coby Foden]

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Charli Infinity wrote:

Where exactly did Ebbe announced that names, contacts and L$ will be transferable? Links...

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For example, Ebbe mentioned about it here:

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Linden-Lab-is-building-a-NEW-virtual-world/m-p/2758736#M185781

"You will certainly be able keep your identity, social network and L$ and you can hop back and forth and decide for yourself where it makes sense to spend your time and energy."

 

 

[Cathy Foil]

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Charli Infinity wrote:

This would never work in SL for sure and not in SL2 if they don't do something about the copybotters and texture rippers. It benefits the full perm creator too much and if they receive royalty for ever sale then it is not really full perm. If full perm is L$300 and the resell is L$400, people will just buy the full perm for L$300 and the texture rippers will just spread the textures for free like nobody's bussiness. 

---

From what I understand textures can be ripped off from any item rezzed in world already so why would people buy full perm for L$300 just to rip the textures when they can do it for free now?  You haven't given me a solid reason why such a derivation system for full perm wouldn't work in the new virtual world LL is working on.  It works extremely well for IMVU which has twice as many daily users logging in than SL.

It is your opinion that it benefits the full perm creator too much but I disagree.  In my example I gave yes the original content creator gets L$300 of the L$400 but that is only because the person who bought the shoes decided to sell it for only L$400.  Had they decided to sell it for L$700 then they would get L$400 and the original content creator would get L$300.

The price the full perm buyer could get for the shoe would depend on how good they were at adding value to the shoe by putting in their own creative touches such as textures and shadowing or paring the shoes with other full perm items they bought.  The better the finished product is the higher price they can get.

This is what I mean when I say such a system would encourage creativity and adding value to item and keeping prices stable not allowing them to fall through the floor like they are doing now and have been for some time now.

I agree with you that such a system would not and probably would not be called "Full Perm" in the new virtual world LL is currently working on.  New world means new rules which means there is no garentee that there will even be "Full Perm" in it.  It is very possible that LL will go with such a derivationsystem instead that works much better than SL's current full perm system.

[Charli Infinity]

hop back and forth witht the same name...so it's not totally seperate...

 

is SL2 = SLGo

[Bobbie Faulds]

Think of it as going to different countries with different things available.

[Charli Infinity]

example full perm mesh of a t shirt L$300, one designer buy that mesh and make t shirt with a tiger picture sells for L$400, anothoer designer make t shirt with a bird picture sells for L$400.

person wants both tiger t shirt and bird t shirt

if purchase from both designers the total spent will be L$800

if purchase full perm mesh and gets free ripped tiger and bird texture from texture ripper total spent will only be L$300

 

copybotters and texture rippers are a big problem in SL. It's already happening now which why resell items are very cheap.

what you suggest will benefit the full perm mesh makers only since they are the ones getting the most sales from so many reseller reselling the same mesh with textures that can ripped easily

texture alone has little value and will be targeted by texture rippers if it is good leaving little profit for the reseller.

[Conifer Dada]

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Vania Chaplin wrote:

Ohoh.. As far as I know, High Fidelity is a new project by Philip Rosedale not linked with Linden Lab. It is an open source project.

---

High Fidelity's homepage now lists Linden Lab as one of its main investors. 

See: https://highfidelity.io/  - and scroll down to see 4 named major investors - True Ventures, Google Ventures, Linden Lab and Kapor Capital.

[Charli Infinity]

high fidelity looks like sl only with facial expressions and moving mouths

[irihapeti]

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Charli Infinity wrote:

high fidelity looks like sl only with facial expressions and moving mouths

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yes kinda

a design goal of HiFi is to one day eventually be able to make a avatar that is indistinguishable from a human being when viewed and interacted with on a 3D screen in realtime

after that then a next design goal is to make a avatar which can "know" all things that you know. And exhibit the same mannerisms and even the way in which you reason and discover new things

is a pretty ambitious project this. To one day be able to recreate yourself digitally

 

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Cathy Foil wrote:

This is what I mean when I say such a system would encourage creativity

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Are you insane?  Look at IMVU and look at SL, the way it is now.  You can't possibly, seriously claim that IMVU is more encouraging of creativity than is SL.  In SL, anyone can become a builder and a merchant... that sort of freedom is built in... the same cannot be said of IMVU.

I sincerely hope that LL will institute more protection for content creators in their new platform, but not at the expense of freedom and, as such, creativity.  The bar should certainly be set higher, but not as high as that which IMVU has set.

Or are you honestly suggesting that creators for IMVU are less restricted than those who create content for SL?  If so, I simply don't believe it.

...Dres

[Cathy Foil]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

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Cathy Foil wrote:

This is what I mean when I say such a system would encourage creativity

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Are you insane?  Look at IMVU and look at SL, the way it is now.  You can't possibly, seriously claim that IMVU is more encouraging of creativity than is SL.  In SL, anyone can become a builder and a merchant... that sort of freedom is built in... the same cannot be said of IMVU.

I sincerely hope that LL will institute more protection for content creators in their new platform, but not at the expense of freedom and, as such, creativity.  The bar should certainly be set higher, but not as high as that which IMVU has set.

Or are you honestly suggesting that creators for IMVU are less restricted than those who create content for SL?  If so, I simply don't believe it.

...Dres

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Dresden are you as clueless as you appear to be?  If you knew anything about IMVU you know the owners of IMVU overly encourage or require very low poly mesh creation.  IMVU exchange rate is horrible and they have no in world building or script language.  Every mesh that has a different color for texture has to be uploaded separately in IMVU thus each variation cost a considerable amount of money to bring in world.  That is why overall there isn't as much higher quality items as compared SL.  It is not IMVU's full perm / Derivation system they have that makes the overall amount of high quality items lower in IMVU less than in SL.  

I never suggested that creators for IMVU were less restricted than those in SL Dresden.  The only restrictions I have proposed is selling be limited to Premium Members only.  Free memberships should be able to create anything they want for themselves just not be permitted to sell it or transfer it to other residents.  This would not restrict creativity.

Now to be clear I am talking about this for the new virtual world Linden Lab is creating not for SL.  It is way too late in the game to change the rules for SL.

I am no fan of IMVU but there are certain aspects of IMVU that are superior to SL.  It is these aspects that I believe are the reason there are twice as many people logging into IMVU everyday than there is in SL.

 

 

[Cathy Foil]

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Charli Infinity wrote:

example full perm mesh of a t shirt L$300, one designer buy that mesh and make t shirt with a tiger picture sells for L$400, anothoer designer make t shirt with a bird picture sells for L$400.

person wants both tiger t shirt and bird t shirt

if purchase from both designers the total spent will be L$800

if purchase full perm mesh and gets free ripped tiger and bird texture from texture ripper total spent will only be L$300

 

copybotters and texture rippers are a big problem in SL. It's already happening now which why resell items are very cheap.

what you suggest will benefit the full perm mesh makers only since they are the ones getting the most sales from so many reseller reselling the same mesh with textures that can ripped easily

texture alone has little value and will be targeted by texture rippers if it is good leaving little profit for the reseller.

---

Yes that scenario could happen but the percentage of people willing to rip textures for such a purpose is very very small.  They would have to find both shirts rezzed in world someplace to rip the textures.  Way too much trouble for the average buyer who is also willing rip textures to bother with.

Copybotters and texture rippers are only a problem if they can turn around and sell what they have stolen.  My proposal that in the new virtual world only "Premium Members" be allowed to sell on the marketplace or in world or give items to another resident would cut this down to a minimum.

Think about it.  If a copybotter or ripper can only use the items for themselves there is no real loss to the content creator since the person who is willing to use copybot or rip mesh most likely would never buy the item in the first place even if there was no such thing as copybot or ripper.  People who use copybot are lazy thieves and lazy thieves don't spend money for things.  I am not saying if they are caught they shouldn't be punished or banned from SL.  I am not saying it is OK to copybot or ripp mesh.

I agree with you Charli that resellers who just add a simple texture are not adding much value to a product.  So why would you think that the reseller who added so very little to a product make the larger amount of profit from the sale of the item than the full perm seller?

Now mind you I have seen some awesome texture creators who can take a plain mesh and with great textures make it incredible.  In this case they would be able to charge a lot more money for the item thus making a lot more money than than the original full perm creator and they should because they added a lot of value and creativity to the item.

[irihapeti]

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Cathy Foil wrote:

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 only "Premium Members" be allowed to ... give items to another resident would cut this down to a minimum.

.

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i disagree with this part

+

first

in all the history of SL the most amount of copybotting is actual done by "premium" and longtime established accounts. And still is

a aside of how this came about

the copybot codes (the reverse engineering of the SL protocols) was written by people who worked for a quite venerable RL IT multi-national company. They did it just bc they could

and they also believed philosophicallythat  it was their right to do this. Their claimed right drawn from their ability to be able do it. Is a whole circle jerk this. Meritocracy gone nuts. Like I have the right to do anything I like. bc I have a ability to do it

when a longtime established "premium" account is called on their copybotting of others works then they just go: oh! soz. I never knew was yours. I feel really bad what I done to you by mistake. Please dont hate me ok. Was just honest mistake. Honest!. Am ever so sorry. Please forgive me

then they take that one down. And then just rip the next thing and include in their sales items

edit add. i just add in here about how people get away with this over and over and over

first is that need a thick skin and zero consciene

but mostly is  bc of how the DMCA works. Each violation is seperate and independent of each other. If multiple violations were to be treated as a single offence then we getting into criminal law. The RL authorities in the USA would have to make a case that a series of violations treated as a single offence constitutes a conspiracy and the authority would have to be able to evidence that in a criminal court

+

second

to have a online space where a person cannot give something to another person without payiing to do this, then is not a world. Is a shop

shopping is pretty cool. I like shopping. I spend ages on it some times. Is quite fun

but if I cant receive something made by a new person who is learning to build with me in a sandbox then that would sux. What would be more suxier is for me to have to tell them that I cant accept their gift they made unless they pay

 

[Cathy Foil]

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irihapeti wrote:

---

Cathy Foil wrote:

---

 only "Premium Members" be allowed to ... give items to another resident would cut this down to a minimum.

.

---

i disagree with this part

+

first

in all the history of SL the most amount of copybotting is actual done by "premium" and longtime established accounts. And still is

a aside of how this came about

the copybot codes (the reverse engineering of the SL protocols) was written by people who worked for a quite venerable RL IT multi-national company. They did it just bc they could

and they also believed philosophicallythat  it was their right to do this. Their claimed right drawn from their ability to be able do it. Is a whole circle jerk this. Meritocracy gone nuts. Like I have the right to do anything I like. bc I have a ability to do it

when a longtime established "premium" account is called on their copybotting of others works then they just go: oh! soz. I never knew was yours. I feel really bad what I done to you by mistake. Please dont hate me ok. Was just honest mistake. Honest!. Am ever so sorry. Please forgive me

then they take that one down. And then just rip the next thing and include in their sales items

edit add. i just add in here about how people get away with this over and over and over

first is that need a thick skin and zero consciene

but mostly is  bc of how the DMCA works. Each violation is seperate and independent of each other. If multiple violations were to be treated as a single offence then we getting into criminal law. The RL authorities in the USA would have to make a case that a series of violations treated as a single offence constitutes a conspiracy and the authority would have to be able to evidence that in a criminal court

+

second

to have a online space where a person cannot give something to another person without payiing to do this, then is not a world. Is a shop

shopping is pretty cool. I like shopping. I spend ages on it some times. Is quite fun

but if I cant receive something made by a new person who is learning to build with me in a sandbox then that would sux. What would be more suxier is for me to have to tell them that I cant accept their gift they made unless they pay

 

---

I love to know where you got your information that most people who use copybots to steal and sell stuff are premium members.  Please sight your source.  I really like to read it.

I believe that most likely the vast majority of copybot items and ripped items from games being sold in the MarketPlace and in world are being sold by free accounts.  What is my logic for this?  People who use copy bot or rip from games don't want to pay for things and are lazy and those types of people are also not going to want to pay for a Premium Membership because they have already demonstrated that they don't like to pay for things.  Add to it that a Premium Membership makes it easier for LL and other authorities to track them down if and when they get caught.

Now I am sure there are people who use copybot and sell ripped items who are Premium Members but probably they are in the minority.  It is conceivable that such a person would also have free accounts as well that they use to copybot and then pass the stolen items on to their premium account but again not allowing free accounts to give or transfer items to another account would stop this.

I would also really love to know what the name of the multi-national company whose IT people wrote the code for copybot.  Again if you could provide some links to articles or webpages that be awesome.

I agree with you that it be nice to for a newbie to be able to give you something they were working on in a sandbox but to make it harder for Copybots from profiting on stolen items I don't think it is that much of a loss.  There is the alternative that the newbie could just give you permission to edit their things if they needed your direct inspection or help with an item.  You just couldn't take a copy is all.

[irihapeti]

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Cathy Foil wrote:

---

 

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I love to know where you got your information that most people who use copybots to steal and sell stuff are premium members.  Please sight your source.  I really like to read it.

 

I would also really love to know what the name of the multi-national company whose IT people wrote the code for copybot.  Again if you could provide some links to articles or webpages that be awesome.

 

---

for the first

then google for sluniverse. Is a forum with lots of longtime SL creatives who have been there, seen it all, when it comes to who pinches what from them and from others. It can come as quite a surprise sometimes to find out who is pinching stuff to include in their own forsale items. They name names on that forum 

+

for the second

can start with wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CopyBot

+

about the its concievable

is way more than concievable

 

[irihapeti]

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Cathy Foil wrote:

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I agree with you that it be nice to for a newbie to be able to give you something they were working on in a sandbox but to make it harder for Copybots from profiting on stolen items I don't think it is that much of a loss.  There is the alternative that the newbie could just give you permission to edit their things if they needed your direct inspection or help with an item.  You just couldn't take a copy is all.

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this thought presupposes that the purpose of creating stuff in SL is to sell it