Mesh Clothes versus non-mesh?

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Marybeth Cooperstone wrote:

System clothes are "painted" onto your body so will fit the shame of your body no matter what shape it is. So for close fitting clothes, such as underwear, system makes sense. As some have noted, mesh clothes require that your avi body be a certain size and shape, If, in a particular place, it is too small there will be a gap between the body and clothes. If the body is too large it will poke out of the mesh clothes. I would always recommend system for underwear.

There are some places where clothes, even tight fitting ones, in RL do not follow the body. For example, pants to not usually show the "but crack". Women's tops are usually straight from the tip of one breast to the tip of the other. The do not go in between the boobs. In this regard, mesh looks more realistic than system which always is the same shape as the body.

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For most non-kink brands of underwear - that buttcrack isn't going to be tightly followed either. I only started getting undergarmets for my avatar after mesh came out.

The disappearing body under skirts is a negative point for mesh - I often buy below the knee skirts for my avatar due to this. When not, I obtained a set of 'tights' at coldlogic that are designed to be worn under cloths and are great for this same thing - much as one would choose to wear them if opting for a mini-skirt on a public bus full of boys with cellphone cameras...

- The tights have a set that collapses up at the top so that it becomes thinner than the avatar body, and another set that fits like normal if wearing them without something over them.

Some of the mesh bikini bottoms can be worn for similar effect with a mini - but this would not work as well with alphas designed to hide parts of the body that poke through when moving (dances and sits that bend the SL avatar unnaturally... the joints there are poorly designed, so that even motion capture animations will create unnatural deformations in many joints - though its not as bad as Poser's butt used to be back in Poser 4).

Try 'upskirting' an avatar in an MMO like WoW - you will see the avatar dissapear under a skirt or robe there as well. Of course they give you a more limited camera in those MMOs so people don't notice this as often.

 

My problem with system clothes is that there are very few items of clothing that are that skintight.

Much mesh suffers from alpha maps that don't fit perfectly - this is because while mesh will stretch to fit all of the dials connected to rigging, in one way... textures stretch a little differently. So an alpha map made for an avatar that is 7'6" (fairly common), will not always work for my avatar at 5'3".

To that end I've made a skin that is the 'SL avatar UV Map template" worn as a skin, so I can look at the gridlines when wearing things and use that to make better alpha maps for myself...

- I prefer my "to scale" height, but because its not the norm I accept that I have the duty to mod things to my needs rather than expect others to match for me.

 

I was very skeptical of the standard sizes when they came out. My first blog article on them is pretty negative and implies ulterior motives on their part. But I kind of accepted that they'd be innevitable.

Having worked with Poser / Daz3D and seen the results of deformers - I have much less faith a deformer will ever work than pretty much anyone else around here. I used to use 'Wardrobe Wizard' to get clothing models in Poser to fit my custom figures, and I'd often end up with a weird polygon poking out somewhere. I'd either have to take the whole thing into an advanced 3D-modeling application and fix that (usually beyond my skills to do), or adjust camera angles to hide it...

On a real time 3D animated figure - I can just imagine the complains the first time someone turns their avatar to just the right angle and sees a previously invisible giant triangle popping some 12m through and out of their head...

So I looked through the standard sizes, looked at my shape - found the closest one, and adjusted my shape using ONLY the dials that I absolutely had to change to fit standard sizes. NOT the standard size shape - but just the dials that matter... which is only 8 dials in women, 9 in men:

Women:

Body Fat

Torso Muscle

Breast Size

Love Handles

Belly Size

Leg Muscle

Butt Size

Saddle Bags

Men:

Body Fat

Belly Size

Torso Muscle

Love Handles

Leg Muscle

Butt Size

Saddle Bags

Package

Pectorals

 

Perfect? No.

But good enough...

And I've since done this for more than 2 dozen different furry avatars, and shapes rannging from 4'8" to 7'6".

I think I have a pretty unique look in SL. I never see anyone who looks even close to me. And I'm not just referring to the fact that my avatar is neither blond nor ultra-pale caucasian like 99% of the avatars in SL - but her face, hair-color, whiskers, tail-style, AO, fangs, eyes, much of the shape beyond those 8 dials, and style choices - are all also pretty unusual.

 

8 of the dials in the entire range of dials is not the entire sum of what makes an avatar unique.

I chose to save myself a headache and give up on those 8, so that I could enjoy so much else.

 

Thats said - I have had to learn to be a savvy shopper. I have pointed out in many recent threads that there are two mesh template makers who use the same sizing initials (XS, S, M, L, XL) as seen in standard sizes - but are NOT themselves standard sized. These have led to a lot of people who do try the 'standard size' system to then feel its not so standardized...

There's nothing that can be done about those two template makers save for pressure - and that's hard when forum rules prevent me from outting them here. This frustrates me regularly - but I would rather people see this caution and ask me, or research it, than risk having the warning deleted by one of them complaining.

It gets worse in that one of them changes what numbers each of her sizes means on a regular bases. So that two items she labels as 'size S' are not the same.

And it gets worse again because merchants who buy their items and see that the standard size notecard and logo are missing sometimes wrongly add it in. Hint to merchants: if your fullperm kit didn't come with a copy of someone else's logo, don't add it on your own. Its not there because it doesn't belong there.

And to make it all even worse yet again - these two have some of the lowest prices in templates of anyone selling fullperms templates. So merchants likelt stock up on their goods as easy to make a return on... and frankly... these two template makers do better rigging than most of their competitors... Their stuff is seriously good quality - it just has unknown shape dials... One of them in fact often uses dial values not possible in SL (mathed out in blender instead).

I have learned to recognize their work - but many have not. And I can still make a mistake when they put out something new. Thankfully one of them did switch to standard sizes a few months ago - but his older product is still out there in merchant inventories. His newer stuff though - is both now sized something you can predict, and better rigged than anyone else... Gone from my avoid list to the top of my buy-from list.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

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Amanda Hewitt wrote:

That would be nice if all stores had demos or told you that you were buying mesh - they don't and it's frustrating and expensive for many of us.  Personally I fed up with this garbage!

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if a store doesn't have a demo  or lacks information then i'm not buying from them, i don't care how nice the picture looks..

if i am at the market shopping already and have looked through their stuff and they don't have a demo there..i'm not going in world to get a demo either.. 

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Visually there's a pretty striking difference between mesh and system clothing - I have my doubts over anyone who claims they cannot tell. Sculpty - in ads I could see making a mistake, but inworld super easy to spot (and if you can't just eyeball it, click on it and it will have a blurry edge' if sculpty, or razor-sharp line if mesh).

But I agree on the demo thing. Plenty of places I have passed right by because of no demo. That said most of these places are using templates they bought and recolored. I don't need to try your demo if I already have a demo of the same item from the last shop I was in, and the other 5 shops before it also all sold color variations of it... But then again this requires being able to visually spot the difference between an elephant and a mouse.

(The obvious exception would be static items like jewelry or a hat - things that are either sculpty or mesh. You can spot these instantly in world because sculpty has rounded edges and always one spot where the texture / shape deforms from many points coming together. But on screenshots camera angle can hide that).

 

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by lack of information  in my eyes is the ones that don't really put any effort into  explaining much about it at all..

like this one i seen the other day..the only thing on the whole add besides the picture was  a line with like 3 words on it..

and it was for a belt..it said something like

it is mesh..

 

i was like omg what a waste of a click! lol

some things like belts  you need some good info ..if it's rigged or not or if it's sculpt..it's hard to tell by looking at those..

 

 

 

[Dresden Ceriano]

Imho, one of the best aspects of the coming of mesh clothing are the demos themselves.

Before mesh, clothing demos were virtually non-existent.  Sure there were demos for all sorts of attachments (hair, hats, purses, backpacks, etc... etc...), but hardly ever for the outfits themselves.  With the advent of mesh, all of a sudden, you were able to try on an outfit before you bought it... before it was usually a crap shoot as to whether or not it actually looked good on you, or even in general.  This ability to try things on before I buy them is the main reason why I consistently seek out mesh clothing over system clothing.

If system clothiers were to apply the Demo mentality, which mesh has created, to their own system clothing business model, it would definitely level the playing field, afaik.

...Dres

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

if a store doesn't have a demo  or lacks information then i'm not buying from them, i don't care how nice the picture looks..

 

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by lack of information  in my eyes is the ones that don't really put any effort into  explaining much about it at all..

like this one i seen the other day..the only thing on the whole add besides the picture was  a line with like 3 words on it..

and it was for a belt..it said something like

it is mesh..

 

i was like omg what a waste of a click! lol

some things like belts  you need some good info ..if it's rigged or not or if it's sculpt..it's hard to tell by looking at those..

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Yeah... I'd probably pass on that one too... seriously...

If its mesh telling me sizing info is ultra important. You either need to tell me you are standard sized, or tell me the shape dial settings I will need for the dials I listed above (in the advert you can say something like "shape dials notecard included").

And I'd need some basic babble... something that lets me know you have confidence in your product.

 

[Catrina Capelo]

I just spent hours trying to find a dress that actually fit my average AV - not one dress fit!!!  I can find cloths is real life easier that second life now and that's just sad!!!  Some guy showing how his suit fits better means nothing.  FIve sizes of dresses and either the skirt is too small or the top has gaps - just plain stupid!!

I loved shopping in SL now it's just a huge waste of time!!!  So let's get to the real point for mesh - so that designers and Linden Labs can keep making money - a noble cause except that it's driving people like me away since mesh is just a big failure!!!

[Coby Foden]

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Catrina Capelo wrote:

I just spent hours trying to find a dress that actually fit my average AV - not one dress fit!!!

. . . . .

... it's driving people like me away since mesh is just a big failure!!!

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I agree that it can be a pain to find nicely fitting mesh clothes.

However I don't agree mesh to be a big failure - no.

Even though there are lots of not so well made mesh clothes, there also excellent mesh clothes available. I have been lucky to find nice collection of very well fitting ones; it just has taken time and patience to find them. I have not changed my shape even one bit to have a near perfect fit in the examplesbelow.

Mesh is just another additional way to make clothes. Well made system layer clothes and flexi prim clothes still look excellent; there is no need to wear mesh clothes if one does not find fitting ones. Mesh is not all purpose thing in clothing; it has its proper uses, as do the older clothing methods.

[FiraFirecat]

With all due respect, "realistic looking body", my wide ass.

Since day one on SL, I've kept my avatar body shape as close to my IRL body as possible. I am what the world calls plus size and slowly but surely with mesh clothing, Second Life is turing into FIRST LIFE! Making it nearly impossible to buy anything for people like me with a true fuller figure. I like Non-Mesh because I can edit it to actually fit me. Unlike Mesh, where it fits IF you change your body shape.

So long story short, I. HATE. MESH. Not everyone comes in 5 standard sizes. It's not only unfair, it's insulting :matte-motes-angry:

[Dresden Ceriano]

Oh, that's rich... someone who purposely bases their virtual world shape on their real world shape is complaining about a virtual world becoming too much like the real world.

...Dres

[Mandika Bookmite]

Dres:  If you spent money on things that don't fit, you'd be angy to.  But since it looks like you have the perfect factory-made male AV you don't see the problem women who are different in in Second Life are having.  Mesh is just another gimic to try to keep vendors interested.  Also just another thing that will make everyone the same in Second Life.  For many of us it's nothing but horrible.

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Mandika Bookmite wrote:

Dres:  If you spent money on things that don't fit, you'd be angy to.  But since it looks like you have the perfect factory-made male AV you don't see the problem women who are different in in Second Life are having.  Mesh is just another gimic to try to keep vendors interested.  Also just another thing that will make everyone the same in Second Life.  For many of us it's nothing but horrible.

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Does it make you feel humiliated in public, degraded, exposed, and abused because of your body?

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Why did you spend money on things that didn't fit?  Didn't you try a DEMO first?  No Demo, No Sale

[Amethyst Jetaime]

There are so many different shapes in SL it is impossible to make clothes to fit all of them.  Creators make mesh clothes that appeal to a large market.  There is nothing wrong with being a plus size avatar, but there just isn't enough of a market to make it worth a creators time to create clothes for it.  Even plus size avatars come in hundreds of variations.  So even if there were such a thing as plus size standard sizes it may not fit you either. 

Have you tried what is known as Fit Mesh? This mesh may fit you as it conforms to the body that is wearing it.  I've seen plus size women wearing it.  Search the marketplace for it and try some demos.

There are still plenty of creators around that still make system clothes.  So you can still be stylish.  Don't worry about people say that you are behind the times if you wear it.  There are many people who still do, especially now that so many need it for mesh bodies and body parts.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Mandika Bookmite wrote:

Dres:  If you spent money on things that don't fit, you'd be angy to.  But since it looks like you have the perfect factory-made male AV you don't see the problem women who are different in in Second Life are having.  Mesh is just another gimic to try to keep vendors interested.  Also just another thing that will make everyone the same in Second Life.  For many of us it's nothing but horrible.

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What makes you think that you're the only one who has difficulty finding mesh clothing which fits?  Upon the establishment of standard sizing, I had the choice of reconfiguring my shape to fit one of those sizes.  But since I was rather partial to the shape which I'd created, then tweaked to perfection over the course of years, I decided to live with the inconvenience of having most mesh clothing not fit me out of the box.

What I don't do is blame mesh clothing creators or LL for that decision... and I certainly don't get angry because I've bought something that doesn't fit.  You see, I don't buy things unless there's a demo and if the demo doesn't fit, I don't buy it.  It's what called being a responsible shopper and if you're being irresponsible by not trying on demos before you spend your money on things, you have no one at whom to be angry but yourself.

...Dres

[Pussycat Catnap]

As Dresden says - don't buy it unless its got a demo. If you buy without demoing... then accept that you're taking a risk.

As for everyone on mesh looking alike...

Mesh has allowed for avatars like the one in this blog:

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2014/10/tiny-avatar-mmo-second-life.html#more

And that's just scratching the surface. Mesh has opened up very wide doors to what is possible.

And speaking of 'wide' and plus-sized bodies... look at things like the brazilia and fusion mesh bodies...

- Both of which come in a variety of different plus sizes from 'realistic' to 'cartoonish', depending on which item in the store you go for.

And for a kick... go to the standard sizes website, and make a version of your own shape, that is each of the different sizes there (change ONLY the dials on their list of dials). Not to keep it - do that only if you want. I want you to do this so you can see how dramatically different they each are from each other.

- Because each is VERY different, and yet all of those specific ones will fit most mesh... with only 8-9 dials changed. They might be the 8-9 you cannot stand to change... but even if that is the case, you will see that they are varied...

 

Oh and... we're coming up on 3.5 years that mesh has been in SL.

3.5 YEARS...

Seriously...

The ship has sailed...

(Mesh went life mid/late 2011... but I forget what month).

 

If you don't like it fine. I'm sure there are people who still haven't adopted sculpty or flexi either. But I think we're getting a bit tired of hearing about it.