What are the chances...

[Kenbro Utu]

I see what you did there, tee hee.

[Czari Zenovka]

---

Kenbro Utu wrote:

I see what you did there, tee hee.

---

Shhhhh...be vewy, vewy quiet.

[Marigold Devin]

---

Czari Zenovka wrote:

I agree, Orca.

@Melita - I've used a TPV since 2007 and have never had an issue with security.  With all this NSA stuff flying around, our security on SL is the last thing I'm concerned about.  I never used Emerald because I was still using the Nicholaz viewer iirc when it came out.  I then switched to Phoenix when Nicholaz quit developing viewers and am now on Singularity which, for me, contains everything I loved about Phoenix (including the v1 UI and area search which is a LIFESAVER for someone who gets impatient shopping in world very easily) but none of the extraneous features I don't need in FS. (Not dissing FS, I just discovered Singularity and love it!)

---

I also agree with Orca's post, and Perrie's just before it, and to add to Czari's words of (hopefully) reassurance, I've flitted between the Second Life official viewer and TPVs. I did actually use Emerald, but didn't seem to suffer because of it, and when that was dissolved, I mainly used Phoenix.  Phoenix is really not an option any more, and so I automatically went onto Firestorm, which can be used very much in the same way as V1.23, but ...

(mini drum roll here)

... like Czari, I just got onto Singularity, and heck oh heck, for me its taken my SL happiness level right back to where I was when the very dreadful V2 first came in. Its most definitely an intuitive viewer.

As for trusting TPVs; LL trust them enough to have the developers of same helping them with their own Second Life official viewer, which means you can trust them as much as you can trust the employees of Linden Lab (and the big question here is, how much do we trust the employees of Linden Lab (no answers required, only in your own head).

Just don't feel like you have to struggle on, Melita. Your mental health is just not worth the aggravation that comes from swimming against the tide all the time.

[Melita Magic]

---

Marigold Devin wrote:

Just don't feel like you have to struggle on, Melita. Your mental health is just not worth the aggravation that comes from swimming against the tide all the time.

---

I liked your post until that bit. Lol

Looks like one more disclaimer is necessary (at least, for my mental health.) 

I am not mentally ill. I also do not swim against the tide, often, let alone "all the time." (I am not that spectacular a swimmer.) I am not especially struggling. I had some criticisms and a legitimate question. But, thanks for the concern.

Reading the topic, one would think I was the first ever to question the official viewer.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

That first post was my practical comment. This is my editoral comment:

A few years ago broadcast television changed from analog to digital. A retired schoolteacher from New York put up a guest editorial in the New York Times basically whining, as she was one of the handful of people in the US who didn't have cable TV and she apparently couldn't be jazzed to do enough research to figure out how to get and install a converter box, which were widely available and even had their >$40 cost subsidized by government coupons. She was confused and wondering why she had to change even though this was a known situation for months - years, really.

At the time, I was also not on cable, just got a converter box for my antenna TV, and was watching TV reception that was much better than it was before. I was thinking - this editorial writer also seemed like she'd be the sort of person who'd say "Young people are so lazy and have no initiative these days."

Seemed like those traits weren't exactly confined to the young....

---

That's incredibly rude, and it's based on such a huge lack of understanding that it's hard to believe it was written by a sensible person.

Your fundamental error was that you assumed that Melita wants a return to a previous viewer, when all she wants is a previous UI. I.e. all the advances but with an earlier interface. Perhaps you can now see how totally wrong you were, and perhaps you might even realise how very rude you were and offer Melita an apology.

Like a great many people, Melita would be very happy with the Singularity V1-style viewer, which incorporates all the current advances, if she would use a TPV. She is not alone. Posts in this forum show that a huge number of people prefer a V1-style interface, and not one of them is desirous of a V1-style viewer without all the advances, and that includes Melita.

 

@Melita.

You mentioned security as being the reason for not using a TPV but, by 'security, you mentioned LL not dealing with bugs/faults if you are using a TPV. LL won't deal with faults that pertain to viewers when it's a TVP. E.g. is things don't rez as they should, and you're using a TPV, don't go to LL about it because they won't handle it - and rightly so. But if there's something wrong with a sim, for instance, then LL will deal with it. The viewer doesn't come into it.

The other type of security that you may also have had in mind, is that of not trusting unknown people's programmes to run in our computers. That's a genuine consideration, and it was the reason why I wouldn't use TPVs for years. What happened with the very popular Emerald viewer vindicated the lack of trust in unknown people's programmes. There's no way round that. As individuals, we either take the risk (and it is a risk) or we don't. Nobody can say TPVs are safe, as the Emerald experience shows, and nobody can say that any particular viewer is safe, so it's up to each individual to decide for him/herself.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Marigold Devin wrote:

As for trusting TPVs; LL trust them enough to have the developers of same helping them with their own Second Life official viewer, which means you can trust them as much as you can trust the employees of Linden Lab (and the big question here is, how much do we trust the employees of Linden Lab (no answers required, only in your own head).

---

In a way, you are right, and, in a way, you are not - imo, of course 

LL, the company, is on a par with bigger internet companies as far as trusting their programmes to run on our computers is concerned. On the other hand, the small groups of unknown people who produce the TPVs are nowhere near on a par with them. You only mentioned the LL employees though, but, if you trust a company, you are really trusting the employees.

The fact that LL and one or more TPVs confer over some things really doesn't add anything to the TPV's trustworthiness. If LL had been conferring with the Emerald team over things to do with the viewer, it wouldn't have made any difference to what happened. Even the Emerald team didn't know what was happening, and it took one of them to smell a possible rat and investigate. LL wouldn't have known about it even if they were conferring.

All in all, I'd much rather put my trust in a company like LL, whose employees risk their jobs if they are discovered doing something underhanded, than in a group of unknown hobbyists like the TPV producers.

Having said that, whilst I know it isn't risk-free, in recent times I've been accepting the risk by using a few of the more popular TPVs. The first one was the one produced by the guy who discovered what was happening with Emerald (I forgot its name). Then I used Phoenix, then briefly FireStorm, both in spite of the fact that they are produced by some of the people who produced Emerald, and now Singularity. All of them as secondary to my use of the LL viewer.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

---

Orca Flotta wrote:

What are the chances that everyone used to an easy, well-functioning system will ever trade it in for something worse just coz it's new and shiny? 

---

THIS ! this ! this ! a thousand times  this !

i would add : What are the chances for one day people stop being lemmings ?

[Trinity Yazimoto]

---

Melita Magic wrote:

I know it seems more logical to try a TPV, but I also feel more secure thinking LL will give support if I need it with something, which I am not sure if they will do at all if I am using another interface. Do abuse reports or land or tech issues still get the same treatment if the person is using a TPV as when they are using the official LL viewer?

 

Melita.. for your second question, the answer is YES. 

for the first part of the quote.... I never have heard about a support group inworld for the LL Viewer.... FS has one and you would be amazed, totally amazed, to see how its useful, when you have smth you have a problem with about your viewer, to have an interlocutor for asking your question, explaining your problem, and get a relevant answer in the following seconds.

i think singularity has a support group aswell, and Kokua viewer too.

[Marigold Devin]

---

Melita Magic wrote:

---

Marigold Devin wrote:

Just don't feel like you have to struggle on, Melita. Your mental health is just not worth the aggravation that comes from swimming against the tide all the time.

---

I liked your post until that bit. Lol

Looks like one more disclaimer is necessary (at least, for my mental health.) 

I am not mentally ill. I also do not swim against the tide, often, let alone "all the time." (I am not that spectacular a swimmer.) I am not especially struggling. I had some criticisms and a legitimate question. But, thanks for the concern.

Reading the topic, one would think I was the first ever to question the official viewer.

---

lol-ing, as that final sentence was just me projecting my own issues a wee bit too much. (I ought to change my signature line to "no longer swimming against the tide" lol.)

You do not at all come across as someone who has any mental health problems at all. In fact, I was really surprised to see you were the author of this particular thread.

 

 

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

That first post was my practical comment. This is my editoral comment:

A few years ago broadcast television changed from analog to digital. A retired schoolteacher from New York put up a guest editorial in the New York Times basically whining, as she was one of the handful of people in the US who didn't have cable TV and she apparently couldn't be jazzed to do enough research to figure out how to get and install a converter box, which were widely available and even had their >$40 cost subsidized by government coupons. She was confused and wondering why she had to change even though this was a known situation for months - years, really.

At the time, I was also not on cable, just got a converter box for my antenna TV, and was watching TV reception that was much better than it was before. I was thinking - this editorial writer also seemed like she'd be the sort of person who'd say "Young people are so lazy and have no initiative these days."

Seemed like those traits weren't exactly confined to the young....

---

That's

incredibly

rude, and it's based on such a huge lack of understanding that it's hard to believe it was written by a sensible person.

Your fundamental error was that you assumed that Melita wants a return to a previous viewer, when all she wants is a previous UI. I.e. all the advances but with an earlier interface. Perhaps you can now see how totally wrong you were, and perhaps you might even realise how very rude you were and offer Melita an apology.

Like a great many people, Melita would be very happy with the Singularity V1-style viewer, which incorporates all the current advances,

if she would use a TPV

. She is not alone. Posts in this forum show that a huge number of people prefer a V1-style interface, and not one of them is desirous of a V1-style viewer without all the advances, and that includes Melita. 

 

---

The reason I seem to be attacking Melita is because of the beginning of this thread:

MELITA WANTED THE ONE THING SHE CAN'T HAVE.

She can have the V1 interface if she uses a third party viewer. She can use a Linden Lab viewer if she gets used to the new interface. I've given her advice as to how to do either of those.

But she CAN'T HAVE AN UPDATED LINDEN LAB VIEWER WITH THE V1 INTERFACE, which is what she was asking for. There's no way that's going to happen. That should have become clear over the past three years. So she needs to do one of two different things. She needs to make a decision which she apparently has made no preparation for despite being given ample notice of this. THAT'S why I'm exasperated with her. I'll help all I can with whatever decision she makes. BUT SHE HAS TO MAKE THAT DECISION.

Melita, I apologize for speaking behind your back in this post. I will now answer your initial question.

THE CHANCES ARE ZERO.

[Coby Foden]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

 

Like a great many people, Melita would be very happy with the Singularity V1-style viewer, which incorporates all the current advances...

---

Phil, I just want to point out that Singularity viewer does not have all the current advances what Linden Lab viewer has.  Materials have not yet been implemented in Singularity viewer (for that matter; neither in Firestorm).

 

[Phil Deakins]

That's right, Coby. I was forgetting about that. I don't think that Melita would have a use for materials though.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

The reason I seem to be attacking Melita is because of the beginning of this thread:

MELITA WANTED THE ONE THING SHE CAN'T HAVE.

She can have the V1 interface if she uses a third party viewer. She can use a Linden Lab viewer if she gets used to the new interface. I've given her advice as to how to do either of those.

But she CAN'T HAVE AN UPDATED LINDEN LAB VIEWER WITH THE V1 INTERFACE, which is what she was asking for. There's no way that's going to happen. That should have become clear over the past three years. So she needs to do one of two different things. She needs to make a decision which she apparently has made no preparation for despite being given ample notice of this. THAT'S why I'm exasperated with her. I'll help all I can with whatever decision she makes. BUT SHE HAS TO MAKE THAT DECISION.

Melita, I apologize for speaking behind your back in this post. I will now answer your initial question.

THE CHANCES ARE ZERO.

---

There is absolutely no need to be as rude as you have been to Melita (you still owe her a big apology for your rudeness to her), and absolutely no need to shout like hell. Any reasoning that you post is ignored solely because you have a habit of being rude and now of shouting like hell. You really ought to learn how to communicate in a way that people will take notice of what you say 

[Theresa Tennyson]

Melita, I apologize for the way I expressed things in this thread. I was rude. I spent much of the summer involved in a complex, rushed RL facilities move for people who did little or no preparation for it and I found it very frustrating having to explain what was possible and what wasn't at the last minute. This was, of course, not your fault.

However, there's no chance that Linden Lab will change back to the V1 interface for their viewer. The viewer as you see it is about a year and a half old and the basic technology and layout is from mid-2010. Also most third-party viewers are based on it. The basic interface is written deep into the code instead of being something that can be swapped out easily. Changing it would be a huge disruption for everyone who's already gotten used to it or who has never used the old layout to begin with.

Many people use third-party viewers without any sign of security problems - in fact, there are far more third-party viewer users than there are Linden Lab viewer users. All the major third party viewers like FIrestorm and Singularity work hand-in-hand with Linden Lab and their code is publicly accessible. Third party viewers actually have very little access to your information - they mostly just pass information straight through to Linden Lab.

Then again, personally I use the Linden Lab viewer and have no problem getting things done with the layout as it is. It's all a matter of getting used to things.

However, I'm somewhat concerned about how well your system will run any current viewer - if you copy-and-paste your information from "About Second Life" into a post we can have a better idea of what viewer to recommend for you.

Finally, in the future when you find yourself needing to make a change in either FIrst or Second Life, it's never too early to start gathering information and asking questions about what your options are. It may save you from being treated roughly by people like me.

[Melita Magic]

Theresa,

I find an apology accompanied by further patronizing speech and insult to be less than genuine.

You've completely ignored Phil's point that you misunderstood my post/thread from the start, which was the basis of your lecturing me as if I were two.

Unless you are on the decision making team for LL I doubt you can shout in huge red letters that there is zero chance of anything regarding same. 

I didn't need telling the sky is blue or grass is green. I think you just wanted someone to yell at.

[Melita Magic]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

That first post was my practical comment. This is my editoral comment:

A few years ago broadcast television changed from analog to digital. A retired schoolteacher from New York put up a guest editorial in the New York Times basically whining, as she was one of the handful of people in the US who didn't have cable TV and she apparently couldn't be jazzed to do enough research to figure out how to get and install a converter box, which were widely available and even had their >$40 cost subsidized by government coupons. She was confused and wondering why she had to change even though this was a known situation for months - years, really.

At the time, I was also not on cable, just got a converter box for my antenna TV, and was watching TV reception that was much better than it was before. I was thinking - this editorial writer also seemed like she'd be the sort of person who'd say "Young people are so lazy and have no initiative these days."

Seemed like those traits weren't exactly confined to the young....

---

That's

incredibly

rude, and it's based on such a huge lack of understanding that it's hard to believe it was written by a sensible person.

Your fundamental error was that you assumed that Melita wants a return to a previous viewer, when all she wants is a previous UI. I.e. all the advances but with an earlier interface. Perhaps you can now see how totally wrong you were, and perhaps you might even realise how very rude you were and offer Melita an apology.

Like a great many people, Melita would be very happy with the Singularity V1-style viewer, which incorporates all the current advances, if she would use a TPV. She is not alone. Posts in this forum show that a huge number of people prefer a V1-style interface, and not one of them is desirous of a V1-style viewer without all the advances, and that includes Melita.

 

@Melita.

You mentioned security as being the reason for not using a TPV but, by 'security, you mentioned LL not dealing with bugs/faults if you are using a TPV. LL won't deal with faults that pertain to viewers when it's a TVP. E.g. is things don't rez as they should, and you're using a TPV, don't go to LL about it because they won't handle it - and rightly so. But if there's something wrong with a sim, for instance, then LL will deal with it. The viewer doesn't come into it.

The other type of security that you may also have had in mind, is that of not trusting unknown people's programmes to run in our computers. That's a genuine consideration, and it was the reason why I wouldn't use TPVs for years. What happened with the very popular Emerald viewer vindicated the lack of trust in unknown people's programmes. There's no way round that. As individuals, we either take the risk (and it is a risk) or we don't. Nobody can say TPVs are safe, as the Emerald experience shows, and nobody can say that any particular viewer is safe, so it's up to each individual to decide for him/herself.

---

Thank you so much Phil. You've said exactly what I had attempted to say and which some have apparently missed, completely, in the rush to condemn anyone who criticizes the viewer or questions (tongue in cheek, at least halfway, I might add...if they care to know) whether changes might be made.  You have also perfectly addressed my concerns and validated them - thank you.

To me, a viewer that has from its start faced the same criticisms about its interface almost unanimously among those who have spoken about same, might one day improve. It stands to reason or logic, to me at least, that "after three years" as Theresa put it, someone would think "oh gee they still hate it. Maybe there is a valid reason."

I also would not think it primary in any for profit business' concern to continue to allow its competitors to do better when there is such an easy way to put a stop to that. They have the original as it is; it isn't like I have asked for cold fission.

Thank you also (and Trinity too and others) for pointing out that what I was talking about had nothing to do with being unable or unwilling to accept 'progress' but simply had to do both with aesthetics and graceful design. I'm sure the Edsel ran well too but if something is clunky and ugly and counter intuitive it will be less than popular, and customers will flock elsewhere - as they have done here, running to the TPV.

The thread title was tongue in cheek, but these are legitimate questions, and from a long time user of Second Life who loves the thing and wishes its prosperity - not mere survival. Google and others are bringing forth competitive virtual worlds. I want this one to have every advantage.

I can't pretend to know why decisions are made but I do question why seemingly - I won't say 'bad' not knowing their game plan but - unpopular - ones are kept.

Not all innovations are successful ones, as some of us realize.

Trinity, exactly; I think for myself and what works for me. I highly appreciate your posts here. Coby thank you for the additional information about Singularity. 

Marigold, I'm not sure if you've been following my past posts on the topic but I've had the same question for a while - why would something still be constantly beta testing if it's not going to really hear customer feedback and implement same? There must be hundreds who've said the same as I have about the interface itself. As Phil pointed out, not the new functions, which are wonderful; especially the land functions in my opinion; I also think it's great they brought back early SL features such as makeup layers. Not the new functions but the interface itself, which really is such a simple thing to change...if they should ever wish to.

What I had hoped to have help figuring out in this topic as well is why they would not wish to. I can't think of a single logical reason. 

Others have pointed out as well that the new viewer was designed by people who are not actually in Second Life themselves. Maybe that makes sense to some; it does not make sense to me.

For those who blow their cool at mere questions I would like to offer them a ride in an Edsel and some New Coke in hopes they will cool down.

xo,

Melita

 

 

[Melita Magic]

Interesting.

I found this topic which I had not seen before creating my own. 

Some here had posted in that one - strange they'd accuse me of being a solitary Luddite. 

That's two topics in one week, three years after the inception of the graceless interface, designed by people who are unfamiliar with the world some of us frequent. 

Not the first time; rather the negative feedback has been thoroughly consistent and from varied users.

[Phil Deakins]

I actually think that LL may move in the direction of more V1-like aspects. I'll explain...

When they created the V2, it was a disaster. Almost everyone hated it with a passion, although a few - a very few - liked it. The V3 is different though. It does away with the big ugly black thing on the right of the screen, and gets back to a near minimal cluttering of the viewing area. Some previously simple things are more awkward so it does have plenty of faults but I, as a V2 hater, use it with my main av for choice. I also use Singularity with my alt for some things that the V3 is very bad at - profiles, for instance (web-based profiles are an epic fail).

So the LL viewer has already moved from the disaster that was the V2 towards the V1, and they may make further steps in that direction without ever becoming a V1 lookalike. But for a pure V1 interface, Singularity is the best I've seen. I believe it has all the advances that any TPV has and it really does look and behave like the V1. So much so that, when I tried its V1 skin, I no longer liked it, and I use a different skin.

 

ETA: Somebody shouting like hell in this thread just reminded me of something in a book that I once read. It was a book of humorous things that happened with vicars and such. After one vicar had delivered his sermon from the pulpit, and the service had ended, someone found his sermon notes still in the pulpit. At one point in the notes it read, "Shout for all you're worth. Argument very weak!".

[Marigold Devin]

The red inked shout earlier in the thread gave me a flashback to my Year 9 maths class, where I'd open up my work book to find the teacher had written

D

NO! SEE ME!!!

[Phil Deakins]

LOL!