Susan Kenin Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I agree, Marybeth. I have taken some regular college courses online (most of my courses were traditional, on campus). We used programs such as Blackboard and others. I have also taken many professional continuing ed. short courses. Some (the longer ones) used blackboard, others (particularly short ones) used gotomeeting and Cisco's webex products. These all have features specially designed for classes, training, and meetings. These programs do not require that a viewer be loaded on the student's computer. Some allow the use of mobile devices and can be accessed through tablet and other small computers. Often, students who are traveling may access the class from a computer in a public library. All of the bandwidth is used for education purposes. I don't feel that on-line training is as good as in person training. However, sometimes in-person is not possible. In college I took most courses the traditional way - on campus sitting in class. However, I took some (mostly out of my major electives) on-line during the summer because I was in another town. I have taken professional development short course and seminars from my home or office because I was unable to travel to a distant site for a short course. Second Life is fun. I have attended discussion groups in SL, and training sessions about SL given over SL (NCI and Firestorm, for example). But for non-SL related college courses and professional development seminars, there are very many platforms available that are much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Amethyst Jetaime wrote: There is a lot of education going on in SL that takes place on private sims not open to the public. While the tools you name are valuable in some circumstances, particularly lectures and for limited interaction the immerse environment of virtual worlds is superior for others. The Virtual Worlds Best Practices in Education is a very well attended conference with presentations and workshops taking place on a number of sims. It takes place in SL,as well as in Open Sim and in Cloud Party. It just started today. Last year the conference drew about 2000 participants. Respected educators and professors from major universities are making presentations on how they successfully use virtual worlds to enhance learning for elementary through university levels. Some of the participants are already using virtual worlds while some are new to it and come there to discuss and learn about the best practices for using virtual worlds and hear about successful examples and what makes them so successful vs.. standard classroom learning or using tools that you mentioned. All the ones I have spoken to are very interested in using virtual worlds themselves. Perhaps you should attend the conference. It might open your eyes a bit more to the opportunities available. Amethyst, I don't get in-world all that much, so won't be attending VWBPE. But I'd be delighted to hear of people making good use of SL as a teaching platform. I don't know how closely you'll be following the proceedings, but if you do see something interesting, would you bring a short synopsis back here for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Freya Mokusei wrote: Funny stuff. The half dozen or so educational groups still in Second Life may well benefit from this - it's good news for them. I can see it being of some use to charities, though I note the minimum requirement of six months tier makes it useless for RFL and other large-scale/annual charity drives. Unfortunately however LL burnt the education bridge when they didn't give any warning when they pulled the rug out. Academic institutions can't just come up with money overnight, and no-one's going to suggest re-investing in a platform that made them all look like fools to their commitees. Once bitten, twice shy - and rightly so. LL yanked the discount before, I see no reason to assume they won't do it again. Educating groups who still have interest in VWs are elsewhere - they won't be brought back by costs still well in excess of the smaller service, and with no change to the SL support or control structure (OAR backups are especially important, but impossible in SL). SL adds nothing - they don't need visibility and they don't want cross-pollination of assets. Collaboration, where is has been important, has flourished outside of our walled garden. And congratulations to them. About 70 locations listed here: http://secondlife.com/destinations/learning/1 And this won't include the private locations. The use of Virtual Worlds as an education platform is still in its infancy. It may prove to be viable for only a small number of people, but at this point in time I am certainly not going to rule it out. I've attended some of the classes hosted by the Firestorm team and actually they were very effective as a teaching tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Perrie Juran wrote: Freya Mokusei wrote: Funny stuff. The half dozen or so educational groups still in Second Life may well benefit from this - it's good news for them. I can see it being of some use to charities, though I note the minimum requirement of six months tier makes it useless for RFL and other large-scale/annual charity drives. Unfortunately however LL burnt the education bridge when they didn't give any warning when they pulled the rug out. Academic institutions can't just come up with money overnight, and no-one's going to suggest re-investing in a platform that made them all look like fools to their commitees. Once bitten, twice shy - and rightly so. LL yanked the discount before, I see no reason to assume they won't do it again. Educating groups who still have interest in VWs are elsewhere - they won't be brought back by costs still well in excess of the smaller service, and with no change to the SL support or control structure (OAR backups are especially important, but impossible in SL). SL adds nothing - they don't need visibility and they don't want cross-pollination of assets. Collaboration, where is has been important, has flourished outside of our walled garden. And congratulations to them. About 70 locations listed here: http://secondlife.com/destinations/learning/1 And this won't include the private locations. The use of Virtual Worlds as an education platform is still in its infancy. It may prove to be viable for only a small number of people, but at this point in time I am certainly not going to rule it out. I've attended some of the classes hosted by the Firestorm team and actually they were very effective as a teaching tool. Perrie, where these classes for SL related things? It would not be surprising for SL to have benefits as a platform for teaching about itself. My skepticism is for use of SL as a teaching tool for students who are not familiar with SL or other virtual worlds and who will not be taught about SL or other virtual worlds. In what way did you find SL to be very effective as a teaching tool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzla Pixelmaid Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 "Cheaper" depends on which costs you're looking at, and what use you have in mind for a VW. Paying for a private sim is one kind of expense. Paying for a server, and for techies to build (almost) everything in OpenSim, is another kind of expense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Laval Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Innula Zenovka wrote: This is going to sound really horrible and hard-hearted, but I am very dubious about giving discounts to sims for their value to SL, no matter how great. We've seen the grumbling and complaints when -- not unreasonably, it seems to me -- the large land barons get discounts on their sim pricing. I can't think of many contexts other than SL where the proposition that someone leasing 100 units of something normally leased in much smaller quantities might reasonably expect a discount would be particularly contentious, but it is here. So if LL start giving people discounts on their tier because of the sim's educational, artistic or social merits, I guarantee there will be a commotion the like of which you've not heard since the last time someone inadvertantly sat on the cat. It's hard, but, to my mind, if people can make their sims pay, or if the public want to support them, or if they have the means and desire to fund them out of their own resources, then great. Otherwise, they will go. So enjoy places while you can, and support them in whatever way you can if you want to keep them. That's my policy. The reason people complain about discounts for leasing 100 sims is more to do with the hush hush nature of the deal. Very few people complained about educational discounts when they were here before and I see very few complaining about them now, it's a clear, transparent and easy to understand criteria. As for LL offering other kinds of discounts, it really depends upon how they'd apply them. A discount based on someone's opinion would be more controversial than the discounts for large land owners. However a discount because your sim is only open weekends or 12 hours a day, would be less controversial, because it's a set criteria. LL could do more to encourage people to own sims, private regions fell below the 20K mark at the weekend and I don't see the trend changing much, even with this boost for non-profits and educational sims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Madelaine McMasters wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Freya Mokusei wrote: Funny stuff. The half dozen or so educational groups still in Second Life may well benefit from this - it's good news for them. I can see it being of some use to charities, though I note the minimum requirement of six months tier makes it useless for RFL and other large-scale/annual charity drives. Unfortunately however LL burnt the education bridge when they didn't give any warning when they pulled the rug out. Academic institutions can't just come up with money overnight, and no-one's going to suggest re-investing in a platform that made them all look like fools to their commitees. Once bitten, twice shy - and rightly so. LL yanked the discount before, I see no reason to assume they won't do it again. Educating groups who still have interest in VWs are elsewhere - they won't be brought back by costs still well in excess of the smaller service, and with no change to the SL support or control structure (OAR backups are especially important, but impossible in SL). SL adds nothing - they don't need visibility and they don't want cross-pollination of assets. Collaboration, where is has been important, has flourished outside of our walled garden. And congratulations to them. About 70 locations listed here: http://secondlife.com/destinations/learning/1 And this won't include the private locations. The use of Virtual Worlds as an education platform is still in its infancy. It may prove to be viable for only a small number of people, but at this point in time I am certainly not going to rule it out. I've attended some of the classes hosted by the Firestorm team and actually they were very effective as a teaching tool. Perrie, where these classes for SL related things? It would not be surprising for SL to have benefits as a platform for teaching about itself. My skepticism is for use of SL as a teaching tool for students who are not familiar with SL or other virtual worlds and who will not be taught about SL or other virtual worlds. In what way did you find SL to be very effective as a teaching tool? The whole experience, interaction with the instructor and with the other students, etc, provided a very effective learning environment. The word "tool" may not be the best word choice here. Environment may be a better one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Perrie Juran wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Freya Mokusei wrote: Funny stuff. The half dozen or so educational groups still in Second Life may well benefit from this - it's good news for them. I can see it being of some use to charities, though I note the minimum requirement of six months tier makes it useless for RFL and other large-scale/annual charity drives. Unfortunately however LL burnt the education bridge when they didn't give any warning when they pulled the rug out. Academic institutions can't just come up with money overnight, and no-one's going to suggest re-investing in a platform that made them all look like fools to their commitees. Once bitten, twice shy - and rightly so. LL yanked the discount before, I see no reason to assume they won't do it again. Educating groups who still have interest in VWs are elsewhere - they won't be brought back by costs still well in excess of the smaller service, and with no change to the SL support or control structure (OAR backups are especially important, but impossible in SL). SL adds nothing - they don't need visibility and they don't want cross-pollination of assets. Collaboration, where is has been important, has flourished outside of our walled garden. And congratulations to them. About 70 locations listed here: http://secondlife.com/destinations/learning/1 And this won't include the private locations. The use of Virtual Worlds as an education platform is still in its infancy. It may prove to be viable for only a small number of people, but at this point in time I am certainly not going to rule it out. I've attended some of the classes hosted by the Firestorm team and actually they were very effective as a teaching tool. Perrie, where these classes for SL related things? It would not be surprising for SL to have benefits as a platform for teaching about itself. My skepticism is for use of SL as a teaching tool for students who are not familiar with SL or other virtual worlds and who will not be taught about SL or other virtual worlds. In what way did you find SL to be very effective as a teaching tool? The whole experience, interaction with the instructor and with the other students, etc, provided a very effective learning environment. The word "tool" may not be the best word choice here. Environment may be a better one. Do you think the environment would have been as beneficial if you were learning about something completely other than SL, like perhaps economics or small engine repair? What I'm wondering is how much of that environmental advantage came from the course being about the environment. Have you used other collaboration tools? If so, did SL provide something they did not? Was SL missing something they had? Had you not already been familiar with SL, do you think the SL learning curve could have been a distraction? Sorry if I'm grilling you, but I am truly curious about advantages others see in using SL to teach. It's pretty clear I don't (yet) see the advantages you do, but I've also been a critic of just about every learning environment I've ever been in, except the workplace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Ciaran Laval wrote: The reason people complain about discounts for leasing 100 sims is more to do with the hush hush nature of the deal. Very few people complained about educational discounts when they were here before and I see very few complaining about them now, it's a clear, transparent and easy to understand criteria. As for LL offering other kinds of discounts, it really depends upon how they'd apply them. A discount based on someone's opinion would be more controversial than the discounts for large land owners. However a discount because your sim is only open weekends or 12 hours a day, would be less controversial, because it's a set criteria. LL could do more to encourage people to own sims, private regions fell below the 20K mark at the weekend and I don't see the trend changing much, even with this boost for non-profits and educational sims. I wasn't complaining about the educational discounts, or the charity ones. I was, though, questioning the wisdom of the suggestion that LL should consider providing discounts to private sims on the basis of their being valuable parts of most people's SL experience. While we can all think of plenty of sims run by residents, as opposed to educational institutions or charities, that contribute lots more to most people's SL than do many educational institutions or charities, I think giving the resident-run sims, no matter how deserving, discounts would end in a massive row. To my mind, the only question that makes any sense is "will this measure create a net increase in LL's income vs expenditure?". That's what I'd be asking if I worked there, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sy Beck Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Grizzla Pixelmaid wrote: "Cheaper" depends on which costs you're looking at, and what use you have in mind for a VW. Paying for a private sim is one kind of expense. Paying for a server, and for techies to build (almost) everything in OpenSim, is another kind of expense. You would be hard pressed to find a university or college, which doesn't have its own servers and IT staff nowadays. With their own LAN/VPN, a more controlled environment in terms of user content and actual users their VW experience I would venture to suggest is probably a lot more smoother and richer than many in SL enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Innula Zenovka wrote: Ciaran Laval wrote: The reason people complain about discounts for leasing 100 sims is more to do with the hush hush nature of the deal. Very few people complained about educational discounts when they were here before and I see very few complaining about them now, it's a clear, transparent and easy to understand criteria. As for LL offering other kinds of discounts, it really depends upon how they'd apply them. A discount based on someone's opinion would be more controversial than the discounts for large land owners. However a discount because your sim is only open weekends or 12 hours a day, would be less controversial, because it's a set criteria. LL could do more to encourage people to own sims, private regions fell below the 20K mark at the weekend and I don't see the trend changing much, even with this boost for non-profits and educational sims. I wasn't complaining about the educational discounts, or the charity ones. I was, though, questioning the wisdom of the suggestion that LL should consider providing discounts to private sims on the basis of their being valuable parts of most people's SL experience. While we can all think of plenty of sims run by residents, as opposed to educational institutions or charities, that contribute lots more to most people's SL than do many educational institutions or charities, I think giving the resident-run sims, no matter how deserving, discounts would end in a massive row. To my mind, the only question that makes any sense is "will this measure create a net increase in LL's income vs expenditure?". That's what I'd be asking if I worked there, anyway. I agree, Innula. Look at all the consternation the forum feels over something as simple as moderation. Imagine attaching real money to LLs subjective measurements of "worth" in the form of discounts to residents and you'd have exactly the massive row you envision. Using already accepted external guidelines for eligibility makes sense. I'd also be expecting a return on this investment in discounts and wonder how LL believes they'll get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Laval Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Innula Zenovka wrote: I wasn't complaining about the educational discounts, or the charity ones. I was, though, questioning the wisdom of the suggestion that LL should consider providing discounts to private sims on the basis of their being valuable parts of most people's SL experience. While we can all think of plenty of sims run by residents, as opposed to educational institutions or charities, that contribute lots more to most people's SL than do many educational institutions or charities, I think giving the resident-run sims, no matter how deserving, discounts would end in a massive row. To my mind, the only question that makes any sense is "will this measure create a net increase in LL's income vs expenditure?". That's what I'd be asking if I worked there, anyway. I didn't mean to imply you were complaining about the edu discounts, and I agree with you that some sort of discount based on LL's opinion would be divisive. However we already have discounts on land costs when it comes to mainland and we see very few complaints about that. The cost per metre if you own a full sim is much lower than if you own a smaller parcel. When a discount is easy to follow, it causes less controversy. I'm surprised there's no obviously advertised discount for those who own x amount of private regions. LL could be more creative in their land offerings though, they could offer more billing choices. Some virtual worlds give you a choice of being charged by usage or a flat fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Madelaine McMasters wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Freya Mokusei wrote: Funny stuff. The half dozen or so educational groups still in Second Life may well benefit from this - it's good news for them. I can see it being of some use to charities, though I note the minimum requirement of six months tier makes it useless for RFL and other large-scale/annual charity drives. Unfortunately however LL burnt the education bridge when they didn't give any warning when they pulled the rug out. Academic institutions can't just come up with money overnight, and no-one's going to suggest re-investing in a platform that made them all look like fools to their commitees. Once bitten, twice shy - and rightly so. LL yanked the discount before, I see no reason to assume they won't do it again. Educating groups who still have interest in VWs are elsewhere - they won't be brought back by costs still well in excess of the smaller service, and with no change to the SL support or control structure (OAR backups are especially important, but impossible in SL). SL adds nothing - they don't need visibility and they don't want cross-pollination of assets. Collaboration, where is has been important, has flourished outside of our walled garden. And congratulations to them. About 70 locations listed here: http://secondlife.com/destinations/learning/1 And this won't include the private locations. The use of Virtual Worlds as an education platform is still in its infancy. It may prove to be viable for only a small number of people, but at this point in time I am certainly not going to rule it out. I've attended some of the classes hosted by the Firestorm team and actually they were very effective as a teaching tool. Perrie, where these classes for SL related things? It would not be surprising for SL to have benefits as a platform for teaching about itself. My skepticism is for use of SL as a teaching tool for students who are not familiar with SL or other virtual worlds and who will not be taught about SL or other virtual worlds. In what way did you find SL to be very effective as a teaching tool? The whole experience, interaction with the instructor and with the other students, etc, provided a very effective learning environment. The word "tool" may not be the best word choice here. Environment may be a better one. Do you think the environment would have been as beneficial if you were learning about something completely other than SL, like perhaps economics or small engine repair? What I'm wondering is how much of that environmental advantage came from the course being about the environment. Have you used other collaboration tools? If so, did SL provide something they did not? Was SL missing something they had? Had you not already been familiar with SL, do you think the SL learning curve could have been a distraction? Sorry if I'm grilling you, but I am truly curious about advantages others see in using SL to teach. It's pretty clear I don't (yet) see the advantages you do, but I've also been a critic of just about every learning environment I've ever been in, except the workplace. Because it was Firestorm Centric I could apply what was being taught in real time and ask additional questions. I watched a video a few years ago of a chemistry teacher modelling a molecule built with prims. The teacher could add to it, delete from it, modify it pretty much as at will. Students could cam around the molecule. The teacher could grant edit rights so a student could make changes in real time and every one could see what was happening, comment and ask questions. In my minds eye I can still visualize that molecule in ways that other media would not allow. Now if it were an economics class, the main advantage to me would be the ability to shoot virtual spitballs at the instructor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czari Zenovka Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Madelaine McMasters wrote: Amethyst Jetaime wrote: There is a lot of education going on in SL that takes place on private sims not open to the public. While the tools you name are valuable in some circumstances, particularly lectures and for limited interaction the immerse environment of virtual worlds is superior for others. The Virtual Worlds Best Practices in Education is a very well attended conference with presentations and workshops taking place on a number of sims. It takes place in SL,as well as in Open Sim and in Cloud Party. It just started today. Last year the conference drew about 2000 participants. Respected educators and professors from major universities are making presentations on how they successfully use virtual worlds to enhance learning for elementary through university levels. Some of the participants are already using virtual worlds while some are new to it and come there to discuss and learn about the best practices for using virtual worlds and hear about successful examples and what makes them so successful vs.. standard classroom learning or using tools that you mentioned. All the ones I have spoken to are very interested in using virtual worlds themselves. Perhaps you should attend the conference. It might open your eyes a bit more to the opportunities available. Amethyst, I don't get in-world all that much, so won't be attending VWBPE. But I'd be delighted to hear of people making good use of SL as a teaching platform. I don't know how closely you'll be following the proceedings, but if you do see something interesting, would you bring a short synopsis back here for us? I haven't checked to see if they are still here, but a few years ago there was a company in SL called Languagelab that taught language classes using various platforms, meaning they were an established RL company prior to entering SL. The major portion of their activities within SL was teaching English to those from non-English speaking countries. At that time, when one went through the sign-up process for SL, there were quite a few "entrance portals" one could choose. I created an alt and chose the Caledon Library, for example. There were a number of portals for a variety of countries. Within those portals there was information about the various courses offered by Languagelab. I used to speak Spanish fluently but have become rusty over the years so I signed up for a Spanish class offered by Languagelab. Having originally learned Spanish over years in classroom settings, beginning in Jr. High School and continuing through my first year of college, "memorize & repeat" was the basic methodology used. In the SL course, a sim had been created that was a replica of a city in Spain complete with a hotel, restaurant, shops, church, a central plaza for entertainment, etc. I would have enjoyed living there if possible! The class was taught by a woman in Spain. Her profile includes: Elearning specialist. Teaching blended and online courses. Coordinator of the TESOL Electronic Village Online and co-moderator of the Becoming a Webhead EVO session since 2004. I'm not in world at the moment, but I'm pretty sure the bio I received in class showed her holding a graduate degree in languages. The point being, this woman came with great credentials for teaching not only Spanish, but within a virtual environment. The class was 10 weeks, iirc, and quite rigorous but a lot of fun learning within SL. Instead of just being in a static classroom, we traveled the sim, putting what we had learned to use in everyday functions such as securing a room at a hotel, learning the names of all the furniture in the hotel room as well as how to call for an elevator, etc. The same with shopping and paying for our purchases, and so on. I have spent a great part of my life in various educational venues, both as a student and instructor and this was a fabulous way to learn a language, second to actually being in a Spanish speaking country in RL. Since Languagelab's main concentration within SL was offering English classes, there were numerous sims dedicated to that. I sat in on a few of the English classes; one of which an instructor who was also a musician, used learning a song to to teach English and then had the class sing along as he played the piano. Just one of my personal experiences with education within SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Perrie Juran wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Freya Mokusei wrote: Funny stuff. The half dozen or so educational groups still in Second Life may well benefit from this - it's good news for them. I can see it being of some use to charities, though I note the minimum requirement of six months tier makes it useless for RFL and other large-scale/annual charity drives. Unfortunately however LL burnt the education bridge when they didn't give any warning when they pulled the rug out. Academic institutions can't just come up with money overnight, and no-one's going to suggest re-investing in a platform that made them all look like fools to their commitees. Once bitten, twice shy - and rightly so. LL yanked the discount before, I see no reason to assume they won't do it again. Educating groups who still have interest in VWs are elsewhere - they won't be brought back by costs still well in excess of the smaller service, and with no change to the SL support or control structure (OAR backups are especially important, but impossible in SL). SL adds nothing - they don't need visibility and they don't want cross-pollination of assets. Collaboration, where is has been important, has flourished outside of our walled garden. And congratulations to them. About 70 locations listed here: http://secondlife.com/destinations/learning/1 And this won't include the private locations. The use of Virtual Worlds as an education platform is still in its infancy. It may prove to be viable for only a small number of people, but at this point in time I am certainly not going to rule it out. I've attended some of the classes hosted by the Firestorm team and actually they were very effective as a teaching tool. Perrie, where these classes for SL related things? It would not be surprising for SL to have benefits as a platform for teaching about itself. My skepticism is for use of SL as a teaching tool for students who are not familiar with SL or other virtual worlds and who will not be taught about SL or other virtual worlds. In what way did you find SL to be very effective as a teaching tool? The whole experience, interaction with the instructor and with the other students, etc, provided a very effective learning environment. The word "tool" may not be the best word choice here. Environment may be a better one. Do you think the environment would have been as beneficial if you were learning about something completely other than SL, like perhaps economics or small engine repair? What I'm wondering is how much of that environmental advantage came from the course being about the environment. Have you used other collaboration tools? If so, did SL provide something they did not? Was SL missing something they had? Had you not already been familiar with SL, do you think the SL learning curve could have been a distraction? Sorry if I'm grilling you, but I am truly curious about advantages others see in using SL to teach. It's pretty clear I don't (yet) see the advantages you do, but I've also been a critic of just about every learning environment I've ever been in, except the workplace. Because it was Firestorm Centric I could apply what was being taught in real time and ask additional questions. I watched a video a few years ago of a chemistry teacher modelling a molecule built with prims. The teacher could add to it, delete from it, modify it pretty much as at will. Students could cam around the molecule. The teacher could grant edit rights so a student could make changes in real time and every one could see what was happening, comment and ask questions. In my minds eye I can still visualize that molecule in ways that other media would not allow. Now if it were an economics class, the main advantage to me would be the ability to shoot virtual spitballs at the instructor. I just downloaded "Avogadro", an open source molecular modeler. At the moment, I'm dragging a water molecule I built around the screen by one of its hydrogen atoms. The atomic bonds are stretching and bending as I do so. I can change the temperature of the environment to affect the dynamics (well, I think that's what I'm doing). I had the molecule built within two minutes of starting the program. I've never seen Avogadro before. Perrie, I don't doubt that you enjoyed (and clearly remembered) the chemistry demonstration you got in SL. What I wonder is whether existing teaching/collaboration tools aren't already ahead of SL. The framework's for things like molecular modeling are already available in tools like Avogadro (I worked with a client who used PyMol, another such tool) and the academic community already has a lot of time invested in those tools, both for use in research, but also as teaching tools for those climbing the ladder of knowledge behind them. Here's a demo of Avogadro in action... This sort of modeling is also a virtual reality, but not an entire world. And as such, it doesn't have a worldly learning curve. CreatorVerse is a LL designed example of a physical modeler that might be a better learning environment for basic physics than SL. I recently joined a community theater group and thought I might be able to use SL to model stage designs. After building a few basic pieces in SL and assembling them into a mock stage, I realized that I could more quickly cut little pieces of wood to make a doll house playset that could be used by anybody in the group. I brought my box of parts to a Sunday morning set design meeting and was soundly trounced by a woman who brought a ream of typing paper, a ruler and a pair of scissors. She was able to cut and fold set pieces faster than I could arrange and fasten (with double sided tape) my wooden blocks. Then a growly fella pulled out "OpenStages" and showed a model of a complete set which he'd built the evening before. It had rudimentary lighting already in place, along with a few "actors" to give a sense of scale and stage crowding. Granted, this particular collaboration was face-to-face, so SL's remote collaboration ability wasn't needed, but I've had many professional collaborations via phone conference and GoToMeeting in which I did things (like share files and editing of documents with others) that SL cannot do. I've attended Linden office hours (you've been there with me) in which very little was accomplished. I'd have hung up on a conference call that went so poorly. We can blame some of that on LL, but I don't think SL is a particularly effective conference mechanism. What I have yet to see for myself (that doesn't mean it's not there) is a compelling example of something made easier or more efficient to learn or teach because of something SL provides that's not available in a better form somewhere else. I do think it's worthwhile for some people to learn SL so they can try things, like reactive art installations, in a rudimentary form before committing to a full RL investment. But I'd not be surprised to discover there's an open source modeler for things like that as well. I do hope Amethyst or someone else returns from this meeting with an interesting story of SL being a better way to teach or learn something. I won't discount your story, but will note that, as an existing resident, SL's learning curve did not stand between you and that chemistry demonstration. ETA: I do understand the advantage of spitballs, and fireballs, being virtual. 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Madelaine McMasters Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Czari Zenovka wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: Amethyst Jetaime wrote: There is a lot of education going on in SL that takes place on private sims not open to the public. While the tools you name are valuable in some circumstances, particularly lectures and for limited interaction the immerse environment of virtual worlds is superior for others. The Virtual Worlds Best Practices in Education is a very well attended conference with presentations and workshops taking place on a number of sims. It takes place in SL,as well as in Open Sim and in Cloud Party. It just started today. Last year the conference drew about 2000 participants. Respected educators and professors from major universities are making presentations on how they successfully use virtual worlds to enhance learning for elementary through university levels. Some of the participants are already using virtual worlds while some are new to it and come there to discuss and learn about the best practices for using virtual worlds and hear about successful examples and what makes them so successful vs.. standard classroom learning or using tools that you mentioned. All the ones I have spoken to are very interested in using virtual worlds themselves. Perhaps you should attend the conference. It might open your eyes a bit more to the opportunities available. Amethyst, I don't get in-world all that much, so won't be attending VWBPE. But I'd be delighted to hear of people making good use of SL as a teaching platform. I don't know how closely you'll be following the proceedings, but if you do see something interesting, would you bring a short synopsis back here for us? I haven't checked to see if they are still here, but a few years ago there was a company in SL called Languagelab that taught language classes using various platforms, meaning they were an established RL company prior to entering SL. The major portion of their activities within SL was teaching English to those from non-English speaking countries. At that time, when one went through the sign-up process for SL, there were quite a few "entrance portals" one could choose. I created an alt and chose the Caledon Library, for example. There were a number of portals for a variety of countries. Within those portals there was information about the various courses offered by Languagelab. I used to speak Spanish fluently but have become rusty over the years so I signed up for a Spanish class offered by Languagelab. Having originally learned Spanish over years in classroom settings, beginning in Jr. High School and continuing through my first year of college, "memorize & repeat" was the basic methodology used. In the SL course, a sim had been created that was a replica of a city in Spain complete with a hotel, restaurant, shops, church, a central plaza for entertainment, etc. I would have enjoyed living there if possible! The class was taught by a woman in Spain. Her profile includes: Elearning specialist. Teaching blended and online courses. Coordinator of the TESOL Electronic Village Online and co-moderator of the Becoming a Webhead EVO session since 2004. I'm not in world at the moment, but I'm pretty sure the bio I received in class showed her holding a graduate degree in languages. The point being, this woman came with great credentials for teaching not only Spanish, but within a virtual environment. The class was 10 weeks, iirc, and quite rigorous but a lot of fun learning within SL. Instead of just being in a static classroom, we traveled the sim, putting what we had learned to use in everyday functions such as securing a room at a hotel, learning the names of all the furniture in the hotel room as well as how to call for an elevator, etc. The same with shopping and paying for our purchases, and so on. I have spent a great part of my life in various educational venues, both as a student and instructor and this was a fabulous way to learn a language, second to actually being in a Spanish speaking country in RL. Since Languagelab's main concentration within SL was offering English classes, there were numerous sims dedicated to that. I sat in on a few of the English classes; one of which an instructor who was also a musician, used learning a song to to teach English and then had the class sing along as he played the piano. Just one of my personal experiences with education within SL. Oooh, this intriques me. It doesn't require either student or teacher to climb more than the first part of the SL learning curve, yet leverages immersion well. I learned a bit of German from my neighbor, mostly by immersion in her kitchen ;-) I've no idea whether this actually does improve learning over other methods, but I like it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceera Murakami Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 When they killed the education discount and jacked the prices, it was about a month or two after most educational budgets for the upcoming year were cast in stone and not possible to change. LL's decision meant that for many educational institutions, they had no choice but to dump half their sims, rounding up, to have sufficient funding to pay for what was left. Or possibly they had no choice but to leave completely. Only the ones that had paid for the full year in advance were able to get through that fiscal year with their sims intact. I had a major Ivy League school as a sim building client when it happened. They had 9 or so sims and were looking at possibly buying as many as 20 more in the next year or two. After the price hike, they paid me to migrate everything to an Open Sim grid that they set up for their university, and they dumped most of their SL sims. I seriously doubt they would even consider returning to SL. *sigh* I just checked, and that university, Rutgers, now has only three sims left in SL. Some of my best work that I did for them no longer exists. The Old Queens campus and their football stadium are now gone. Last time I checked, they had over 20 sims on their opensim servers. Fortunately, before the SL sims went off line, I was able to migrate everything I had made for them to that grid, as well as building many more new sims for them there. LL burned the bridge to education with that last elimination of the education discount - especially when they wouldn't reconsider the change after educators explained that it was impossible to get new funding approved in time to pay for all their sims at the higher rate. Most educational institutions had renewal dates on their contract that were not tied directly to the start of their fiscal year. So they might have had less than 6 months before their contract expired and the new rates would kick in, but only had funding to renew at the old rate. Most of those institutions now have their own servers and run their virtual worlds there, for the benefit of their students and staff. I seriously doubt LL could lure those customers back now, after the way they treated them last time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Ceera, how does Rutgers use their Opensim world? Their having 20 sims suggests they're doing something! I'm curious to know how (and what) virtual worlds are being used to teach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czari Zenovka Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Madelaine McMasters wrote: Czari Zenovka wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: Amethyst Jetaime wrote: There is a lot of education going on in SL that takes place on private sims not open to the public. While the tools you name are valuable in some circumstances, particularly lectures and for limited interaction the immerse environment of virtual worlds is superior for others. The Virtual Worlds Best Practices in Education is a very well attended conference with presentations and workshops taking place on a number of sims. It takes place in SL,as well as in Open Sim and in Cloud Party. It just started today. Last year the conference drew about 2000 participants. Respected educators and professors from major universities are making presentations on how they successfully use virtual worlds to enhance learning for elementary through university levels. Some of the participants are already using virtual worlds while some are new to it and come there to discuss and learn about the best practices for using virtual worlds and hear about successful examples and what makes them so successful vs.. standard classroom learning or using tools that you mentioned. All the ones I have spoken to are very interested in using virtual worlds themselves. Perhaps you should attend the conference. It might open your eyes a bit more to the opportunities available. Amethyst, I don't get in-world all that much, so won't be attending VWBPE. But I'd be delighted to hear of people making good use of SL as a teaching platform. I don't know how closely you'll be following the proceedings, but if you do see something interesting, would you bring a short synopsis back here for us? I haven't checked to see if they are still here, but a few years ago there was a company in SL called Languagelab that taught language classes using various platforms, meaning they were an established RL company prior to entering SL. The major portion of their activities within SL was teaching English to those from non-English speaking countries. At that time, when one went through the sign-up process for SL, there were quite a few "entrance portals" one could choose. I created an alt and chose the Caledon Library, for example. There were a number of portals for a variety of countries. Within those portals there was information about the various courses offered by Languagelab. I used to speak Spanish fluently but have become rusty over the years so I signed up for a Spanish class offered by Languagelab. Having originally learned Spanish over years in classroom settings, beginning in Jr. High School and continuing through my first year of college, "memorize & repeat" was the basic methodology used. In the SL course, a sim had been created that was a replica of a city in Spain complete with a hotel, restaurant, shops, church, a central plaza for entertainment, etc. I would have enjoyed living there if possible! The class was taught by a woman in Spain. Her profile includes: Elearning specialist. Teaching blended and online courses. Coordinator of the TESOL Electronic Village Online and co-moderator of the Becoming a Webhead EVO session since 2004. I'm not in world at the moment, but I'm pretty sure the bio I received in class showed her holding a graduate degree in languages. The point being, this woman came with great credentials for teaching not only Spanish, but within a virtual environment. The class was 10 weeks, iirc, and quite rigorous but a lot of fun learning within SL. Instead of just being in a static classroom, we traveled the sim, putting what we had learned to use in everyday functions such as securing a room at a hotel, learning the names of all the furniture in the hotel room as well as how to call for an elevator, etc. The same with shopping and paying for our purchases, and so on. I have spent a great part of my life in various educational venues, both as a student and instructor and this was a fabulous way to learn a language, second to actually being in a Spanish speaking country in RL. Since Languagelab's main concentration within SL was offering English classes, there were numerous sims dedicated to that. I sat in on a few of the English classes; one of which an instructor who was also a musician, used learning a song to to teach English and then had the class sing along as he played the piano. Just one of my personal experiences with education within SL. Oooh, this intriques me. It doesn't require either student or teacher to climb more than the first part of the SL learning curve, yet leverages immersion well. I learned a bit of German from my neighbor, mostly by immersion in her kitchen ;-) I've no idea whether this actually does improve learning over other methods, but I like it! Comparing this method to my years of sitting in classrooms learning the Spanish alphabet, then some words, then how to put the words together, then the tenses, well anyway...both methods have their place, but as I mentioned, being in a virtual world in a "city" with builds containing the RL uses for the phrases and the ability to "act them out" with our fellow students would be second only to actually being in a Spanish city. I'm repeating myself...lol. I did enjoy this greatly! Dangit!! I was just in world and forgot to see if Languagelab is still operating. Teaching English is their main balliwick but I think they tried Spanish to see how it went. The class offered was for beginners and of the 7ish of us in class, I think one had never spoken any Spanish, one had one Spanish-speaking parent but didn't want to learn Spanish growing up, one had spent some time in a Spanish-speaking country and me, who had taken years of classes. Even though it was beginner level, I found it challenging. There was to be an intermediate class offered, but for some reason it never was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charly Muggins Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 I think it would be a wonderful idea for SL to be used to teach people how to read and write English - especially those who erroneously think they already can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertThorp Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Charly Muggins: "I think it would be a wonderful idea for SL to be used to teach people how to read and write English - especially those who erroneously think they already can." I assume you must be talking about us Americans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertThorp Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 A few years ago a friend who is a history professor showed me an on-line teaching tool (or "environment") she was trying out. I don't remember the name or company that sold it. It was accessed through the web; no special software was needed. So students could access it through any computer, such as one at their work or in a library. In one mode, generally for lectures, most of the students' screens would be a video of the teacher or a screen view from a computer (power point, pictures, or anything), or both. There would be an icon (raised hand) to ask for recognition. The teacher could see a list of students with raised hands and click on a name to recognize that student. Then on each student's computer there would be a small window with a video or picture of the student who was recognized (either from the camera on the student's laptop or a stored picture). The recognized student could ask a question, either by voice or by text. In another mode, typically used for discussion groups, each student would see an array of all of the students (either live video or stored pictures) in small pictures. I think that it would allow about three dozen students in the group. The teacher could require that, as in the lecture mode, a student "raise his hand" and be recognized, or simply open it up so anyone could speak (useful only for very small groups). Students with cameras on their computers could easily switch from live video to stored picture. Students could also easily switch between voice (if they had a mike) or text for questions or comments. There was a mode for very large discussion groups; it looked more like the lecture mode. There were many other build in features, such as a forum and chat. There were features not related to history, such as the ability to connect third party programs for chemical modeling, math modeling (enter an equation and display live graph), etc. The class could have a license for third party programs, music, books, etc. and allow controlled access only through the training program website. I won't compare this environment to an actual class room experience. It is intended to be used for distance education where face to face class room experience is not an option. But it seemed far better than a fake classroom, avatars, etc. in a virtual world (SL and others) class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charly Muggins Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 RobertThorp wrote: Charly Muggins: "I think it would be a wonderful idea for SL to be used to teach people how to read and write English - especially those who erroneously think they already can." I assume you must be talking about us Americans If the cap fits, wear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted August 1, 2013 Author Share Posted August 1, 2013 For those that may be interested here is a link to videos of some of the presentations at the VWBPE conference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charly Muggins Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Amethyst Jetaime wrote: For those that may be interested here is a link to videos of some of the presentations at the VWBPE conference. This should be in the SLEDU subforum. Well, the single LL post there must be getting awfully lonely. Assuming my own posts have all been removed. I must check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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