Why does LL use unprofessional Paypal?

[Serra Nightfire]

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KarenMichelle Lane wrote:

What are you ranting about?

I've used PayPal as one of my payment  funding sources for my Real Life Business for over 8 years. They have been nothing but professional in all that time. The information you are being asked for it the same information I presented years ago when establishing my Business Account with PayPal. Now regular US-Based PayPal accounts are required to provide verified identification information.  It's about time.

Being able to bill my clients via an PayPal email invoice has been a boon for me. The bottom line is PayPal is an "

Acquiring

- Bank Company" from the definition I offer "

The acquiring bank accepts the risk that the merchant will remain

solvent

over time, and thus has an incentive to take a keen interest in the merchant's products and business practices

"

PayPal is Not a traditional Bank. It was founded as and is still a place for businesses and individuals to conduct business over the internet with emphasis of maintaining credit worthiness. As a self-owned business if you maintain a large PP account balance over time your credit worthiness goes up. It is not a free "checking" account. Credit worthiness is earned by consistent use and a minimum of transaction reversals.

As they have expended their services over the years I've started to use them as one of my [and not my only] merchant payment companies to accept VISA & M/C cards as well. I want to do business / expand my services to private individuals and this will help open that market to me and also provide added security to make sure that those funds are mine to keep when I accept a PP payment from a new client.

So because you are asked to provide verifiable information to PP you think this is unprofessional? Really?

A PayPal debit card is NOT an acceptable "Bank Funded" source in the eyes of Linden Research. PayPal is not a bank.

That Linden Research accepts a fully verified PayPal account backed up by a real world bank account is a good thing in my eyes. To me this means in SL that I'm way less likely to see one of those "Adjustments" to my Linden Dollar balance because of fraud and theft of another's account in payment to me.

Real World banks are now able to process check and debit transactions nightly and clear "Completely" nightly. That took over 50 years to become a reality. The whole transaction verification process is so very complicated and that is what most people don't understand.  A single debit between your gas station and the funding bank has several communication and verification steps in it before the funds are locked, sent and in the hands of the gas station owning company. I for one will be happier if and when all my PayPal transactions can clear in 5 or less days. But I digress.

As for PayPal Customer Support, I've had only 3 occasions over these past 8 years to deal with them. On all 3 of these occasions the email/problem support method did the trick nicely.

Now mind you, my life doesn't depend on immediate access to the funds in my PayPal business account. I know how to budget my life and expenses. So when I transfer funds from PayPal, I learned a long time ago that non "brick & mortar" institutions all require lead time to complete fund transfers. It's been this way for all my experience and still is.

In the world outside of SecondLife, all internet based financial institutions are going through this increase in security awareness and record keeping requirements. Many are instituting 2 factor identification as well and it's about time.

 

 

 

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I'm more aggravated about the fact that I had to send them my delicate info in order to verify for their Paypal Debit Card, but they won't let me use that same info to get them to take my bank account out of their system, or at least to move it over to the current Paypal account that I am using.  If I can verify who I am for the one thing they want me to do, it seems like I should be able to use that info to prove who I am and get them to do something else for me as well.

Sure, they'll take my information of verification in order to charge me $59.40 USD a year in fees in order to use their Paypal Debit Card, but they won't cooperate and either take my bank account out of the system so I can use it again, or migrate it to my current Paypal account- that's just shady as hell.

[Perrie Juran]

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Serra Nightfire wrote:

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I'm more aggravated about the fact that I had to send them my delicate info in order to verify for their Paypal Debit Card, but they won't let me use that same info to get them to take my bank account out of their system, or at least to move it over to the current Paypal account that I am using.  If I can verify who I am for the one thing they want me to do, it seems like I should be able to use that info to prove who I am and get them to do something else for me as well.

Sure, they'll take my information of verification in order to charge me $59.40 USD a year

in fees

in order to use their Paypal Debit Card, but they won't cooperate and either take my bank account out of the system so I can use it again, or migrate it to my current Paypal account- that's just shady as hell.

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First off, wher eare you getting these fees from?

PayPal (pops)

 

Are there fees to use my PayPal Debit MasterCard®?

Fees for the PayPal Debit MasterCard® are:

• Make a purchase - None
• Receive card - None
• Annual fee - None
• Withdraw money from any ATM with the Cirrus/Maestro logo - $1 per withdrawal*
• A signature-based cash withdrawal from a bank - $3 per signature-based cash withdrawal

*The bank that owns the ATM fees may charge additional fees.

 

If you use your debit card to withdraw cash or pay for something in another currency, MasterCard will convert the amount you charged to U.S. dollars.

 

Also see here (pops)

You've admitted to opening and closing accounts if I am reading your posts correctly.  All this other stuff that has happened.  And you are griping about PayPal wanting to see your "sensitive information?"

Well maybe you are not planning on trying to defraud PayPal, but did it ever occur to you that your behavior is the exact kind of behavior of people who ARE trying to defraud them?  People who are trying to get away with something?

Just because they are the "greedy PayPal" doesn't get you off the hook that easy.

Really, I am not "on their side," I have no banana in this boat.  But I've been using them almost since they began and have only ever had one problem that was resolved by one E Mail, and the fault was mine because I did not know how to do something.

 

 

 

[Melita Magic]

People can scan your credit card for information while it's in your purse or pocket. Doesn't matter if you put  your purse down or not. I think if you wrap the card in tin foil (not a hat, though) it can foil (hehe) that plan.

Serra: I have had similar problems with Pay Pal refusing to let me try to straighten things out and move on. It's a cluster you know what. I hate it.

 

[Malanya]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Serra Nightfire wrote:

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I'm more aggravated about the fact that I had to send them my delicate info in order to verify for their Paypal Debit Card, but they won't let me use that same info to get them to take my bank account out of their system, or at least to move it over to the current Paypal account that I am using.  If I can verify who I am for the one thing they want me to do, it seems like I should be able to use that info to prove who I am and get them to do something else for me as well.

Sure, they'll take my information of verification in order to charge me $59.40 USD a year

in fees

in order to use their Paypal Debit Card, but they won't cooperate and either take my bank account out of the system so I can use it again, or migrate it to my current Paypal account- that's just shady as hell.

---

First off, wher eare you getting these fees from?

PayPal (pops)

 

Are there fees to use my PayPal Debit MasterCard®?

Fees for the PayPal Debit MasterCard® are:

• Make a purchase - None
• Receive card - None
• Annual fee - None
• Withdraw money from any ATM with the Cirrus/Maestro logo - $1 per withdrawal*
• A signature-based cash withdrawal from a bank - $3 per signature-based cash withdrawal

*The bank that owns the ATM fees may charge additional fees.

 

If you use your debit card to withdraw cash or pay for something in another currency, MasterCard will convert the amount you charged to U.S. dollars.

 

 

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I have used PayPal for 15 years and have a PayPal Debit card. I get cash back bonuses for using the card for purchases. I am a Business member and my card does say Business Debit but I don't think it's just something you apply for, has nothing to do with volume for merchants or someone who uses it as a buyer. You just sign up I believe, it's been so long I don't remember. Maybe it is the PayPal MC the OP is referring to.

[chrismignon McDonnell]

Why you don't create a new email? 

[Perrie Juran]

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Malanya wrote:

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I have used PayPal for 15 years and have a PayPal Debit card. I get cash back bonuses for using the card for purchases. I am a Business member and my card does say Business Debit but I don't think it's just something you apply for, has nothing to do with volume for merchants or someone who uses it as a buyer. You just sign up I believe, it's been so long I don't remember. Maybe it is the PayPal MC the OP is referring to.

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Well, I looked at the FAQ for the PayPal Credit Card and it states:

"Is there an annual fee?

No, there is no annual fee. For rate, fees and other cost information, See terms and conditions."

 

I am not saying Carte Blanche that Serra is wrong, I just can't find anywhere that lists a monthly or annual fee for either the Debit Card or the Credit Card.  As far as Credit Cards go, I'd sure shop around.  They may not have the best interest rates in the world. 

[Perrie Juran]

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Melita Magic wrote:

People can scan your credit card for information while it's in your purse or pocket. Doesn't matter if you put  your purse down or not. I think if you wrap the card in tin foil (not a hat, though) it can foil (hehe) that plan.

 

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That has to do with cards that use RFID chips.  However,

 

 

"Representatives from the Identity Theft Resource Center said, "They've never seen a case of RFID skimming used to steal information."         Electronic Pickpocketing (pops)

 

If you are concerned about the RFID chips you can request from your Bank or Provider cards with out the RFID Chips. 

 

The magnetic strip on the back of your card can not be read with a scanner.  They have to be physically run (swiped) through a reader.  The thief would have to have your card in their hand!

 

ETA the link for the ITRC Website:   http://www.idtheftcenter.org/index.html

 

[Malanya]

I couldn't find anywhere that stated any fees either, so I just am not getting what fees are mentioned. I agree, I am sure there are many cards with a better interest rate lol, many.

[KarenMichelle Lane]

LMAO

and I thought this only happened with my bank Chase! [A depositor was a millionaire for a few hours once but the bank corrected it quickly after a call by the account holder. 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/18/newser-paypal-quadrillionaire/2551543/?morestories=obnetwork

[Aethelwine]

PayPal is notorious for poor customer service. It only takes a few moments googling to find thousands and thousands of people with complaints about PayPal ripping them off and locking them out of their accounts for spurious reasons.

Those people saying they have had no problems so far, well you appear to be the lucky ones. Anecdotal evience is rather like those 90 year old smokers saying tobacco has never harmed them, it misses the risk and the experience of many other people. Many of whom's businesses have been destroyed by PayPal.

Cases like this, or this, or this are just a small sample of the thousands you can find online.

If you want to take the risk with PayPal then that is fine, but Linden labs only using PayPal when so many peoples accounts get spuriously frozen and their funds seized is very poor.

I have only used my PayPal twice and in my case I appear to have been randomly credited money, which is nice.. but it doesn't instill any confidence in their service.

Alot of people experience this...

[Perrie Juran]

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Aethelwine wrote:

PayPal is notorious for poor customer service. It only takes a few moments googling to find thousands and thousands of people with complaints about PayPal ripping them off and locking them out of their accounts for spurious reasons.

 

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I for one am not saying that PayPal never has troubles.  But I am also aware that really there is no Financial institution that is free from them.  It's a problem that needs to be fixed.  I've never had a problem with my bank but I also know people who wouldn't walk into it if they were giving away free cash.

For every person who has innocently been burned by a Bank error, there are more who's problems really started with their own mistakes but think that the banks should just bend over and take it up the rear and refuse to acknowledge that they made mistakes.

 

 

eta spelling

[Kenbro Utu]

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Aethelwine wrote:

PayPal is notorious for poor customer service. It only takes a few moments googling to find thousands and thousands of people with complaints about PayPal ripping them off and locking them out of their accounts for spurious reasons.

 

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I would venture to say that this is in itself anecdotal evidence.  It is very common to post about bad experiences on the internet to try to garner help, empathy, change, etc.  However, the times that people post stories when they are completely happy with a service and have had no problems whatsoever is very rare.  I just wonder how many happy customers of PayPal there are for every customer with a bad experience -- 10 to 1, 100 to 1, 1000 to 1?  There could be millions and millions of happy customers, which would make those having problems a small minority.  This link states that in March 2012 PayPal had 106 active accounts, and that 86% of those people would recommend PayPal.  I have no idea how accurate those numbers are, but obviously more than a few thousand have had no problems whatsoever.  

[ArwinLemay]

The fact that many people have an ok experience with paypal is pretty irrelevant.

What matters is  how many they treat badly, and how bad is the damage to those people's lives.. Because one day you could suddenly find you become one of them

Have a look at This Forum to see how many people have had their lives seriously damaged by PayPal erroneously freezing their actual Bank Account. Yes, the one they need to live their lives. For long periods, with no proper redress or appeal system.

Be warned. You may be next. Never give Paypal details of any bank account that is needed for your normal life. Or information allowing them to link to it.

No action of yours may be involved at all. Just buying from or selling to a suspicious person on Ebay is enough, for instance. And how can you guard against that? Or trying to withdraw from SL the very same amount you paid in a few months before.

[Perrie Juran]

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ArwinLemay wrote:

The fact that many people have an ok experience with paypal is pretty irrelevant.

What matters is  how many they treat badly, and how bad is the damage to those people's lives.. Because one day you could suddenly find you become one of them

Have a look at 

This Forum

 to see how many people have had their lives seriously damaged by PayPal erroneously freezing their actual Bank Account. Yes, the one they need to live their lives. For long periods, with no proper redress or appeal system.

Be warned. You may be next. Never give Paypal details of any bank account that is needed for your normal life. Or information allowing them to link to it.

No action of yours may be involved at all. Just buying from or selling to a suspicious person on Ebay is enough, for instance. And how can you guard against that? Or trying to withdraw from SL the very same amount you paid in a few months before.

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Do you have an alternative trouble free service you'd suggest?

One that gives LL the necesary tools to be in compliance with the FinCen regulations?

And while I hate to see any one excluded, it needs to be one that the vast majority of residents have access to.

 

 

eta clarity

[Kenbro Utu]

That forum claims 52,572 members.  If the claim that PayPal had 106 million customers in 2012 is accurate, that is less than 0.0005% who have had a bad experience.  Put in perspective, Iit is probably close to other popular companies approval rate.  There are always going to be unsatisfied customers.  Bank of America is the 2nd largest bank in the US.  It is also Top in Consumer Complaints.  I would not call Bank of America unprofessional though.  As with any company, you cannot make all your customers happy all the time, and the larger the company, the more upset voices.  Perspective.  

[ArwinLemay]

"That forum claims 52,572 members.  If the claim that PayPal had 106 million customers in 2012 is accurate, that is less than 0.0005% who have had a bad experience."

Are you seriously arguing that everyone substantially mistreated by Paypal will have found that one website, and registered ?

You feel thats a rational calculation, worth offering to the rest of us ?

My guess would be that less than one such person in 500 would have registered there. That would imply 25 million unhappy customers. You guess that they ALL do.

Is your guess more, or less, likely than mine?

The point is, banks operate under rigid rules about customer redress. Paypal is outside the system, operates totally under its own unregulated user agreement, and can withold your money without explanation, appeal or redress, for as long as it wishes.

Hardly any of us read user agreements, so I guess we get what we deserve in one respect. But on the otherhand, once they united with Ebay, they have such monopoly power that the user is being somewhat coerced.

They operate outside comsumer protection and banking rules.

As such, SL should not choose them as their major funding gateway.

 

[Aethelwine]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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ArwinLemay wrote:

The fact that many people have an ok experience with paypal is pretty irrelevant.

What matters is  how many they treat badly, and how bad is the damage to those people's lives.. Because one day you could suddenly find you become one of them

Have a look at 

This Forum

 to see how many people have had their lives seriously damaged by PayPal erroneously freezing their actual Bank Account. Yes, the one they need to live their lives. For long periods, with no proper redress or appeal system.

Be warned. You may be next. Never give Paypal details of any bank account that is needed for your normal life. Or information allowing them to link to it.

No action of yours may be involved at all. Just buying from or selling to a suspicious person on Ebay is enough, for instance. And how can you guard against that? Or trying to withdraw from SL the very same amount you paid in a few months before.

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Do you have an alternative trouble free service you'd suggest?

One that gives LL the necesary tools to be in compliance with the FinCen regulations?

And while I hate to see any one excluded, it needs to be one that the vast majority of residents have access to.

 

 

eta clarity

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how about this?

https://www.merchantinc.com/

or this?

http://www.neteller.com/

 

[Phil Deakins]

"Why does LL use unprofessional Paypal?"

Companies in general don't do anything to please their customers. They only do things to help their profits. Sometimes satisfying a customer, or customers in general, is good for business (profits), so they do something that satisfies them. But it's not for the benefit of the customers. It's for profits.

When companies don't feel they need to do something that satisfies customers, they simply don't do it. Linden Lab has no need to satisfy customers who cash out, so they don't try to satisfy them. In fact, over the years they've reduced their own efforts in that regard so that they do as little as possible in the cash-out process. Customers in general would much prefer to cash out via bank transfer or cheque, but that doesn't matter because customers who are making money to cash out won't go anywhere - there's nowhere else to go.

So very often, we post that Linden Lab simply doesn't care about their own paying customers, and it's true. But it's true of companies in general. Linden Lab isn't an exception. PayPal is just the same as can be seen all over the web. If keeping a customer satisfied is profitable, then companies in general will do it. If it isn't profitable, they generally won't do anything to satisfy customers.

 

[Perrie Juran]

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Aethelwine wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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ArwinLemay wrote:

The fact that many people have an ok experience with paypal is pretty irrelevant.

What matters is  how many they treat badly, and how bad is the damage to those people's lives.. Because one day you could suddenly find you become one of them

Have a look at 

This Forum

 to see how many people have had their lives seriously damaged by PayPal erroneously freezing their actual Bank Account. Yes, the one they need to live their lives. For long periods, with no proper redress or appeal system.

Be warned. You may be next. Never give Paypal details of any bank account that is needed for your normal life. Or information allowing them to link to it.

No action of yours may be involved at all. Just buying from or selling to a suspicious person on Ebay is enough, for instance. And how can you guard against that? Or trying to withdraw from SL the very same amount you paid in a few months before.

---

Do you have an alternative trouble free service you'd suggest?

One that gives LL the necesary tools to be in compliance with the FinCen regulations?

And while I hate to see any one excluded, it needs to be one that the vast majority of residents have access to.

 

 

eta clarity

---

how about this?

https://www.merchantinc.com/

or this?

http://www.neteller.com/

 

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I looked a bit at both.  The first one, Merchantinc, advertises itself as a Merchant's Service, not a Consumers Service.  Their emphasis is on processing Credit Card payments for Merchants.

I found it interesting that the second one, Neteller is loved by people who Gamble on line.  I'm not against on line gambling but that is an area where there is huge potential for fraud and money laundering.

One potential problem for LL with both these services may be in how they charge for land usage.  LL bills people at the end of the month for their Land usage.  They don't charge in advance.  This is one of the reasons that LL requires a PayPal account secured with an alternative means of payment, that is a Credit Card.

I'm not ruling them out.  I just don't know enough.

[Melita Magic]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Melita Magic wrote:

People can scan your credit card for information while it's in your purse or pocket. Doesn't matter if you put  your purse down or not. I think if you wrap the card in tin foil (not a hat, though) it can foil (hehe) that plan.

 

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That has to do with cards that use RFID chips.  However,

 

 

"Representatives from the Identity Theft Resource Center said, "They've never seen a case of RFID skimming used to steal information."        

Electronic Pickpocketing (pops)

 

If you are concerned about the RFID chips you can request from your Bank or Provider cards with out the RFID Chips. 

 

The magnetic strip on the back of your card can not be read with a scanner.  They have to be physically run (swiped) through a reader.  The thief would have to have your card in their hand!

 

ETA the link for the ITRC Website:  

http://www.idtheftcenter.org/index.html

 

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B-but! It was on national and local news! And everything on the news is true!

They even showed it happening, complete with remote laptop receiving the info IIRC.

Thanks for the additional info.

[Perrie Juran]

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Melita Magic wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Melita Magic wrote:

People can scan your credit card for information while it's in your purse or pocket. Doesn't matter if you put  your purse down or not. I think if you wrap the card in tin foil (not a hat, though) it can foil (hehe) that plan.

 

---

That has to do with cards that use RFID chips.  However,

 

 

"Representatives from the Identity Theft Resource Center said, "They've never seen a case of RFID skimming used to steal information."        

Electronic Pickpocketing (pops)

 

If you are concerned about the RFID chips you can request from your Bank or Provider cards with out the RFID Chips. 

 

The magnetic strip on the back of your card can not be read with a scanner.  They have to be physically run (swiped) through a reader.  The thief would have to have your card in their hand!

 

ETA the link for the ITRC Website:  

http://www.idtheftcenter.org/index.html

 

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B-but! It was on national and local news! And everything on the news is true!

They even showed it happening, complete with remote laptop receiving the info IIRC.

Thanks for the additional info.

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The potential exists.  They demonstrated it in a controlled environment the potential.

Let's see them actually work a check out line at your local Grocery and do it.