Penny Patton Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 There doesn't seem to be a way to apply materials to the avatar mesh. Considering what a big deal materials are, this seems like a major problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Textures on the avatar mesh are composited from several different layers that could be of very different ages. Imagine wearing a lace blouse with a normal map under an older satin vest without one. Materials + avatar mesh = mare's nest. Also, for at least a few weeks, that mare's nest may have to be calculated on a seven-year old laptop and uploaded by someone sending it wirelessly to bad ADSL while thier neighbor watches awesome pr0n. Meanwhile, that mare's nest would be painted on an avatar mesh that everyone acknowledges is pretty pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penny Patton Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 Materials don't necessarily need to be tied directly to clothing layers and even if they were it needn't be as complicated as you make it sound. They could be applied separately, say as a new layer type or directly to the avatar mesh itself. If attached to clothing layers, it could be set up so the material maps are baked in the same server side way the textures are baked, so a clothing layer's material map is only used where that clothing layer is visible. There's no need to overthink it and dismiss it out of hand because you've made it overly complicated. The calculations for applying materials to the avatar mesh are no more difficult for a seven year old laptop than materials on any other surface, or are you arguing that materials themselves are a mare's nest? Finally, yes the default avatar mesh is pretty bad and should have been replaced years ago. However, it's still the avatar mesh, most people use it because the alternatives come with their own crippling problems. Not being able to apply materials to the avatar mesh is only going to make the avatar look even more dated and hobbled compared to other cointent in SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitomi Tiponi Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Materials for the avatar mesh were ruled out for the initial implementation of materials. This was a deliberate policy decision by LL - the viewer is not broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 I'm not dismissing materials on the avatar mesh at all - however, it will depend on two separate projects both reaching full production quality - materials rendering, obviously, and server side baking to get away from the historic laptop/ADSL/pr0n issue. Once those systems are in place it should be comparatively simple to add in materials and untangle the layering mare's nest. Meanwhile, since avatar skinning has always been separate from the build menu, I don't know how you can call the current interface "broken." HOWEVER, as of 12:05 PM EST June 24, 2013 the materials system is barely out of beta and the server-side baking ovens are still in their shipping crates. Insisting on avatar mesh materials NOW would increase the difficuly of both those projects - I think it makes more sense to wait and possibly include it in a backwards-compatible revamping of the base avatar itself some time in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coby Foden Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Penny Patton wrote: There doesn't seem to be a way to apply materials to the avatar mesh. The materials interface is not broken. It works on prims and mesh - just as it was intended. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group Meeting notes 2012-08-27 : [12:24] Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad): textures will be uploaded separately, and applied to an object in-world as such [12:25] Drongle McMahon: Ordinary prims too, no? [12:26] Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad): yes [12:26] Asha (ashasekayi.ra): Just not clothing layers or avatar...yes? [12:26] Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad): unfortunately, yes [12:26] Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad): (for now, it's a rather complex issue) [12:27] Nyx Linden: avatars are special types of primitives [12:27] Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad): ones that get rather special treatment as well! [End of quote] Geenz Spad was the main architect for coding the materials system into the the viewer. If he says that implementing materials system to the avatar is complex issue then I believe it indeed is so. If it would have been as "easy" as doing it for prims and mesh, surely it would have been implemented right away. Nyx Linden said (jokingly) that 'avatars are special types of primitives'. Yes, they are special in the sense how the various system textures and texture layerings are applied and baked on avatar. Anyway, isn't it nice that we can start using materials on prims and meshes right now? The other alternative would have been a long wait without any materials at all until the complex issues with materials on avatars would have been solved. We have something to play with already. Maybe we will see materials on avatars too on some later date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Horten Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Coby Foden wrote: ... We have something to play with already. Maybe we will see materials on avatars too on some later date. Sooner or later, like the mesh deformer? Once implemented half aszed, it will stay as is.... Another half implemented new feature, wonderful, thanks. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Now I have a picture in my head for the rest of the day...of a half empty glass....or was it half full? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coby Foden Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Jean Horten wrote: Another half implemented new feature, wonderful, thanks. J. Well, I would call call it the beginning... I don't see it as half implemented at all. It was implemented as planned. This can be considered as a first stage. Releasing the materials system as it is now in no way prevent adding the system on avatar too later on (unless some insurmountable obstacles will surface on the way...). If we had to wait for the materials system on avatar too before any materials system release it might have been an unknown long wait. As Geenz Spad said "it's rather complex issue". So it might take long time to solve those issues. I really do like that we can use materials on prims and meshes already now - rather than wait, wait, wait... :smileyhappy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coby Foden Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Coby Foden wrote: Jean Horten wrote: Another half implemented new feature, wonderful, thanks. If we had to wait for the materials system on avatar too before any materials system release it might have been an unknown long wait. As Geenz Spad said "it's rather complex issue". More info about materials on avatar... https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MATBUG-221 Oz Linden added a comment - 24/Jun/13 8:56 AM: "We do not currently have plans to support materials on avatar layers. Any speculation regarding whether or not we may do so in the future would be just speculation. We are certainly aware that it would be nice, but it's much much harder than on other things. The same applies to the only other surface you can't apply materials properties: terrain." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodasullivan Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 All of these suggestions that allowing adding materials on the avatar mesh at a later date would be fine, if LL had an above average or even average record of following up on things or had any desire to do so...which they don't. As Oz himself says, it is mere"speculation" because , well gee whis..it would be really hard and really expensive. It is just like the mesh deformer, the broken avi frame and the CHUI debacle. It is done 75% and then thrown out there....never to be touched again. Afterwards, as the suggestions for improvment are made...LL throws up its hands and says "we give them this and now they want this too!" LL went 10 years without materials, why not take one more or even two more years and get it right the first time? Try to havea forward thinking model that is not 6 months down the road. It is all too easy for people to snipe at folks like Penny who seek to have LL use the full potential of what is currently available by just shrugging their shoulders and saying "gosh, that would be really, really hard". However, without people like Penny, it would still look like 1993 in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Given the complexity of the SL internals and externals (a userbase with hardware varying much much more than any other 3d application), I'd say it's a very wise choice to implement the material system the way they did it now. If there are any real issues with the new material system, it would be far easier to tackle them now it's not woven into every piece of the software yet. LL can only test so much, even through a beta program that reaches a fraction of the user base. Let them get it 100% right for objects, then see if they can implement it for avatars and terrain. Imagine the responses from the user base if LL wouldn't implement the material system right now, simply because it doesn't apply to the avatar. People have been using it for months now and it works, good enough for a release. Browse the forums for the deformer project and you'll get a good impression on how the reactions would be on a postponed material release. I don't think anyone disagrees with Penny that it would be a nice feature, but I'm happy LL decided it's time to pull the system out of beta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suspiria Finucane Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Coby Foden wrote: More info about materials on avatar... https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MATBUG-221 Oz Linden added a comment - 24/Jun/13 8:56 AM: "We do not currently have plans to support materials on avatar layers. Any speculation regarding whether or not we may do so in the future would be just speculation. We are certainly aware that it would be nice, but it's much much harder than on other things. The same applies to the only other surface you can't apply materials properties: terrain." Thank you :matte-motes-wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimi1 Nikitin Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I've got to agree with Penny on this one, just for a different reason why I think it's broken. The materials should be their own setting to turn on and off, they shouldn't have been tied in with the settings for shadows. The way it's setup now if you want materials you're stuck using the so-called "advanced lighting model" which tends to makes everything look like garbage with shadows turned off. This just seems to me like LL has inadvertently created an all or nothing situation..... either you get materials and shadows or you get nothing at all... and in my book that really sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coby Foden Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Mimi1 Nikitin wrote: The way it's setup now if you want materials you're stuck using the so-called "advanced lighting model" which tends to makes everything look like garbage with shadows turned off. This just seems to me like LL has inadvertently created an all or nothing situation..... either you get materials and shadows or you get nothing at all... and in my book that really sucks. That is strange what you see. When I turn "Advanced Lighting Model" on - no shadows, everything looks ok. When I turn shadows on too, everything looks ok. So for me whether shadows are on or not, it has no effect to the quality of how things look. For reference, my system info: Viewer: Second Life 3.6.1 (278007) - Works ok also with: Second Life 3.6.2 (278133) Beta viewer CPU: Intel® Core i7-2600K CPU @ 3.40GHz (3411.16 MHz) Memory: 8169 MB OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 64-bit Service Pack 1 (Build 7601) Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation Graphics Card: GeForce GTX 560 Ti/PCIe/SSE2 Graphics Driver Version: 9.18.0013.1422 OpenGL Version: 4.2.0 PS. Turning "Advanced Lighting Model" on has no effect to fps in my system. Turning shadows on reduces fps to about half compared to with shadows off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I can only second that, the looks not being any different with or without shadows. if it is of any help.... i7-3770k, GTX670, 16GB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiftRaven Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 The main reason why I believe materials is not working on the main SL Avatar is because parts of the Avatar mesh a mirrored, like the arms, hands, and feet. I checked to see if mirrored UV's were supported and their not, it's a current Jira Matbug. So the problem with this is a normal map applied to the SL Avatar would produce mirrored shading effects. One side of the Avatar would show correct shading while the parts that are mirrored would be shaded as if there was a second sun on the opposite side of the Avatar. I did the search because I'm finishing a mesh Avatar that would have a normal map for the body, and instead of three maps for the body I had to create four. Good thing shinking a normal map to 512x512 still produces a really good illusion of detail its really nice to look at. I'm very new to Second Life, Hello everyone :smileyhappy: Happy to be a new resident. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MATBUG-199?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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