When are Mod perm items No Mod?

[Ravie Bunny]

Hello all.

I have bought some items that were sold as No Copy, Mod, No Trans.  However, these items automatically adjust/and revert back to their original forms every time anything is done to them.  In other words, if I retexture it, it will go back to the default textures.  If I put another script in it, it will delete it.

Is this allowed?  To me, this is deceptive marketing saying that something is MOD perms, and while it does have MOD perms, you can't actually mod it successfully.  Nothing, whatsoever, appears to be modable in this item.  When I asked the creator, the response was "We do not allow any texturing or changes to the items".

At what point are "MOD" items NO MOD, and is this something that is allowed?

[Astrid Kaufmat]

hmmm strange! if it is mod it should allow you to.

however it could have somethig to do with the group that the maker used to rezz that item. It's always good to newer wear any group when building.

I guess that there is nothing you could do but contacting the maker and telling about this iussue.

what I find strange is that if you set an item to be mod then it should be least copy.

Viceversa if I set an item as  mod but no copy it automatically becomes transf.

unless inside that item is a script  that is making the whole prim or linkset nomod.

However building with less permission as possible is not a bad thing but almost a must these days.

It is also always good to not leave around prims with too many permissions over them cause of criminals around using hack viewrers,

Look at how many stuff is around that they have stolen and if you inspect the maker you could read "linden" and say  oh gosh what is happening. That's cause they can use full perm primitives to steal stuff and let it appear as the creator of the full perm primitive did that.

Those pirates ( even if this would be an insult to the real romantic and honorable  pirates  who lived in  nineteenth cenruy) can take items full perm made by linden that are in inventory library.

That's why I wouldn't blame this maker to use tight permissions on the items that you've bought.

Prudence is never enough!!!!

 

 

[Freya Mokusei]

It's allowed, but it's pretty crappy. Any item I bought that did that, would be the last I bought from that merchant.

It also takes far longer to code a system like that than it would be to just state that their items are No Mod, and disable permissions. Their loss of money and time is probably funny to watch.

That's the power of SL though, you can usually find much better elsewhere.

 

...Alternatively, just go to No Script land and delete ALL of their scripts from inside the object. It's Modify, so this would be fair play. And then laugh and enjoy your new, actually-Modifiable toy until you're bored.

(They may have boobytrapped it, so make sure you know what you're doing.)

[Ravie Bunny]

Unfortunately, this was a unique item (in respects to something no one else makes), so its not exactly something I can buy elsewhere.

But that is so deceiving and deceptive, I'm quite surprised its allowed, especially since it was over L$35,000 to purchase.  And they advertise, right there on the vendor, that its Mod.

 

Ugh.

[Freya Mokusei]

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vexacion wrote:

 I'm quite surprised its allowed, especially since it was over L$35,000 to purchase.  And they advertise, right there on the vendor, that its Mod.

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Permissions only state the Second Life permissions as the platform sees them, they don't actually clarify licensing terms (nor are they legally binding for the seller). Saying that, if they failed to include a licence and are only relying on scripts to enforce their silly selling policy, you can do as you please within the confines of the Second Life platform. If it's Modify, there's no way to prevent people modifying the prims 100% of the time.

All I can advise is that you inspect a potential buy more carefully before spending on items of this value in future, and if you DO decide to try and un-trap the object, be aware that you might well lose it forever if you if you trigger a script accidentally.

[Ravie Bunny]

Yeah, unfortunately, there is no mention anywhere of that, other than that its mod!  Except it isn't.  They don't actually tell you what is mod, or that there are measures in place to make sure nothing can actually be changed.  They just merely say that it is mod, no copy, no trans.  This is akin to selling an item as COPY, but licensing it as a single-license.

But thanks for the help.

 

Thanks.

[Astrid Kaufmat]

Check if you could unlink the link set and try to mod the items you want to then link again.

Hovewer as I said the permission set sounds odd to me, if that's not a script in one of those  prims doing this.

Cause if a prim or a link set is set as mod copy it is no transf

but if you take a prim or a link set and set it as mod no copy it becomes automatically no transf.

[Ravie Bunny]

Yeah I know how all the permissions work and such, but unfortuantely unliking it would permanently break the item I'm sure.  His scripts themselves in the item will automatically revert the prims (i.e. llSetPrimitiveParamsFast on all the items back to original textures/forms/glow/transparency/etc).

My frustration isn't that he's doing that in particular.  It's that they sold this item with Mod permissions, and while you can mod the item, it just reverts back to its original form after a few seconds.

[Czari Zenovka]

The permissions settings in SL can be confusing, even to beginning builders and merchants, for a number of reasons.  An indepth discussion of the topic has been ongoing in the merchant forums here.  I highly recommend anyone with permission questions to read that thread (there are some off-topic posts in it, so just skip over those...lol).

First off, in your situation I do not know if the item is a wearable (clothing, shoes, accessories, hair, etc.) or a furniture type item.  I make furnishings so and most of my items are currently mod/transfer. (I've gone back and forth between mod/copy & mod/transfer, but that's a different subject.)  I want my customers to be able to modify the size of their item.  However, if I have purchased scripts or textures for the item, those merchants have licensing agreements to which I must adhere, meaning I cannot put one of their scripts/textures on my items with full perms; I have to decide which to use.  This gets into a more detailed discussion but, to answer your question it could be possible that your item itself is able to be modified in size, but if the texture itself is marked no mod, then you cannot change the texture.

Generally, however, if there is a no mod texture, script, sound, animation, etc. in an item, it will mark the entire item as no-mod, even if the merchant sets it to be modifiable and the item itself can be modified, just not the specific components within.

Hopefully that made a little sense.  I've been a merchant and building for five years and the "subsets" of permissions still make me stop and think as I create.

[Nova Convair]

Somone circumvents the permission system. Just another scam (for my opinion) probably ok for the TOS and others.

Obviously a short time business since pissing off their customers doesn't seem to be a clever strategy. Don't buy anything of them again and see it as a loss of lindens. If you can't delete the script in one of the prims there is no fixing besides only using it in a no script zone - as long as it's not worn or used in a skybox - then it will work in no script zones too.

 

[Lucretia Brandenburg]

I don't suppose this item is in a temp rezzer? That happened to a friend of mine, he purchased something that was mod but in a temp rezzer. The seller didn't state that the item was in a temp rezzer or my friend would never have bought it, and the item kept reverting back to the orignal when it rerezzed.

[Ravie Bunny]

I agree with you Nova.  I think this is blatant circumvision of the permissions system and I've since ARed the *vendor* that sells this item since it does not specify that you can't actually modify anything but is being sold as mod.  However, I've since gotten around this issue. Since the creator sends linked messages that tell the other prims what to do, I wrote my own script to capture those linked message and then send my own so the prim doesn't actually change.  Fight fire with fire, I guess.

While he "deletes" foreign scripts including mine, the way SL appears to work is that it still compiles my script, and the bytecode still executes, even though the script was removed.  As long as I don't re-rez the item, it will continue to run my script.  So this works around the issue.  I still think this is very unfair to end customers.  I am a scripter/builder/creator myself - I am very very familiar with the permissions system.  However, I still believe that by selling an item as "mod", and advertising it as such it is generally understood that you won't be able to mod any scripts in it, but the physical item itself (i.e. a chair for example) you should be able to do basic appearance things -- changing texture, adjusting glow, resizing, etc, and of course, you do all these things at your own risk especially with an item that is no copy.  I'm pretty sure most people would be quite upseet to buy some hair, for example, taht was sold as mod for your avi, only to have it revert back to default colors every time you colored it.

[Tiffy Vella]

If the item is something like a gaming table (just to grab at an example) and it is mod, and you change some of the textures/colours to make it more appealing to you, the script may revert those changes if the textures/colours are scripted that way to enable gameplay. Perhaps a prim is scripted to switch between red and green as an indicator? If so, changing this via edit menu won't last. Scripted texture changing functions will override what you've manually chosen.

If this is so, and you really really are sure you want them changed, then check the name of the prim or it's description. Some texturechange scripts call on prims by name, so editing this may make that prim immune to the change. Record the original name so you can fix it later.

I'm assuming the script is no-mod and not viewable? Even so, removing it from the object (and keeping it safely in inventory) should be possible if the object is itself moddable.

 

[Perrie Juran]

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vexacion wrote: 

However, I still believe that by selling an item as "mod", and advertising it as such it is generally understood that you won't be able to mod any scripts in it, but the physical item itself

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No, I don't generally understand it means the item and not the scripts.

When I came home and my kids told me we had a broken window in the house that was only half the story and they were not off the hook until they told me how the window got broke.

If a Merchant is selling something with "mixed permissions" they need to tell me what is what.

If the package says it is MOD, I expect the whole thing to be MOD inside and out.  That is what I generally understand.

To tell me anything less than the whole story is dishonest.

 

[Senobia Xenga]

If it were truly 'No Mod', you wouldn't even have the option of getting a different texture in the edit window space or dropping a script into the contents. Those options would be greyed out and inaccessible entirely. 

[Suspiria Finucane]

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Astrid Kaufmat wrote:

 

Hovewer as I said the permission set sounds odd to me, if that's not a script in one of those  prims doing this.

Cause if a prim or a link set is set as mod copy it is no transf

but if you take a prim or a link set and set it as mod no copy it becomes automatically no transf.

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Exactly!

Using the official LL viewer it is impossible to make a single base prim, both, no transfer and no copy. It is possible however to have a linkset with both types of permission sequences. Many items have the root prim set one way and the child prim or one of the child prim set differently, giving the appearance of a single perm set.

That said, the simplest way to fix the issue is to identify the “perm problem” prim and delink it from the linkset. If you use the same link pattern to relink, it should work fine.

 

[Phil Deakins]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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vexacion wrote: 

However, I still believe that by selling an item as "mod", and advertising it as such it is generally understood that you won't be able to mod any scripts in it, but the physical item itself

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No, I don't generally understand it means the item and not the scripts.

When I came home and my kids told me we had a broken window in the house that was only half the story and they were not off the hook until they told me how the window got broke.

If a Merchant is selling something with "mixed permissions" they need to tell me what is what.

If the package says it is MOD, I expect the whole thing to be MOD inside and out.  That is what I generally understand.

To tell me anything less than the whole story is dishonest.

 

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I tell people that everything in my store is mod, and every item is. But the scripts inside are not mod. I'm sure that's perfectly standard, even though a lot of people don't realise it. I do get asked about it when people see no mod listed. They think that maybe they can't adjust the size, texture or colour.

[Perrie Juran]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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vexacion wrote: 

However, I still believe that by selling an item as "mod", and advertising it as such it is generally understood that you won't be able to mod any scripts in it, but the physical item itself

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No, I don't generally understand it means the item and not the scripts.

When I came home and my kids told me we had a broken window in the house that was only half the story and they were not off the hook until they told me how the window got broke.

If a Merchant is selling something with "mixed permissions" they need to tell me what is what.

If the package says it is MOD, I expect the whole thing to be MOD inside and out.  That is what I generally understand.

To tell me anything less than the whole story is dishonest.

 

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I tell people that everything in my store is mod, and every item is. But the scripts inside are not mod. I'm sure that's perfectly standard, even though a lot of people don't realise it. I do get asked about it when people see no mod listed. They think that maybe they can't adjust the size, texture or colour.

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For people who don't understand how the permission system works I know it can be very confusing.

I do understand it and do want to know the details.  It can be a big consideration for me when purchasing something depending on my use. 

[Ravie Bunny]

I agree it is confusing to a lot of people.  But when I say that it is generally understood, I was referring to people who have several months into SL.  I don't think anything is understood to a true newbie here. When I create things, I try to offer as much full disclosure as well - my scripts are never mod, but the items themselves are.

The point of this post was to see what people felt when an item is mod is actually no mod.  I didn't mean to get into the nuances of things like "If you can change teh texture it's mod".  I'm well aware of that and yes the option is there.  But the fact that the scripts within the object revert any mods you make, at what point does the item cease to really be mod?  That was the point of the post.  I also fully agree with like gaming tables and stuff - even on a mod table, a script that reverts the playfield to its original texture is not a problem - afterall, it is a critical part of the item itself that can't be messed up.  But if I wanted to change the color of the table from brown to black, that isn't critical to the core function of the item, and should be able to be changed.  If you don't want it to be, then don't make it mod.  What creators in this original case seem to have done was merely to circumvent the fact you can't make a no copy, no transfer, no modify item, so they make it no copy no transfer, but then actively look for any modifications and merely revert them to default.

My original example stands -- if you purchased some hair for your avatar, and that hair was mod, but every time you changed the size or color of that hair the scripts inside of it reverted your changes, would you still consider this hair mod?  Sure, you can find all the scripts in it, pull them out, or find some kind of workaround, but that's besides the point -- should that hair still be allowed to be sold and advertised as mod?

 

[Dillon Levenque]

 

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vexacion wrote:

I agree it is confusing to a lot of people.  But when I say that it is generally understood, I was referring to people who have several months into SL.  I don't think anything is understood to a true newbie here.

 

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I had to smile at this comment: it's too true. I remember asking after some apartments I saw for rent. I actually had a few Lindens in my account and thought it would be ever so cool to have my own place. The guy renting them asked, "How many prims do you need?". I am pretty sure I didn't answer with what I was thinking: "What's a PRIM?", but I got out of that convo as quick as I could.

And to the question in the title of your OP: Mod perms are No Mod when someone is not truthful. Mod is Mod.

 

edited for spelling