MARKETPLACE - What to do when you have been reported

[Czari Zenovka]

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Tex Monday wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

You can put as many copies of those items as you want - all over the house. Just buy them

There is no "should" about being able to buy one and create many copies of it. The word "should" doesn't come into it, except in the minds of those who think that everything should be free, of course.

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Ah...that solves all my problems...thank you, Phil...:matte-motes-sunglasses-3:

As I said, I'm not thinking like a merchant. When I was looking for certain items for my girls, I wanted things that were copyable so that I could spread the items around the house for them. I'm not one of those people who think everything should be free...in fact, I hardly ever spend any money in SL unless I have to..but I do feel that if I did buy the item and I'm not selling it or giving it away, that making multiple copies is all right. (as you said, I took out the word "should" :matte-motes-sunglasses-3:)

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Not meaning to speak for Phil, but in an earlier post in this thread he mentioned that he began as a SL merchant selling skyboxes and knew that a landlord could purchase one furniture item, let's say a sofa, and with copy perms make (for argument's sake) 100 copies.  I'm coming to believe that what permissions a merchant places on their items depends a great deal on the type of item sold.  It's unlikely a landlord is going to place a grand piano, for instance, in 100 apartments.

Using my situation as an example my dilemma is as follows:

*I sell curtains for let's say $125L

*In the past I sold them with copy perms but later realized that a landlord could buy one copy and rez copies for 100 apartments.  Another customer might need just the one set.  See the "What should I do?" dilemma?  My thoughts in selling the curtains with copy perms in the beginning was my own preference as a customer - to have a backup copy in case SL ate the curtains; and I have lost both inventory items AND rezzed items to the mysterious SL black hole.

*Should I keep the copy perms for the backup I initially intended for my customers but thereby have some people rezzing a ton of curtains.  Even if not used for rentals, the person who wants three sets is getting a better deal than the person only using one set.

*When I migrated to DD, I decided to change to Mod/Transfer permissions instead.  I dropped the price of the curtains to $75L so if someone needs more than 1 pair, it is still a good price.  I also offer quantity discounts, but thus far have never had anyone ask for that.  A few years ago I did have a person contact me saying she built & sold houses and asked how much I would charge for a full perm copy of my wood blinds.  Three locations to view her homes were listed on her profile; the first one had an orb eject me, the second one had banlines up around the houses but I could at least cam into the houses - which appeared to be one basic house that could have more rooms added - and the third location landed me in a collection of full perm freebies that this woman offered.  I contacted the woman with a polite, professional notecard (all our communications were either notecards or offline IMs) and said I would not sell my blinds full perms but offered a quantity discount to her for copy/mod which, interestingly, was what the perms were set at then to begin with.  The woman responded rather rudely, informing me that she had been in SL since pre-beta (her rez date was in 2005) and it was the "norm" to allow prefab home builders full perms on furnishings so they could sell them as part of their homes because they needed to be able to resize the blinds for the individual houses, copy, and transfer to be sold as part of the home.  Never having run into this logic previously, I posted on the forums to see if what she said was indeed true.  All responders concurred, especially given the rather strange way her house was presented to potential customers (behind banlines) and that she offered a collection of full-perm freebies, to not sell full perms to her.

It all goes back to not being able to please everyone.

[Phil Deakins]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

For some landscaping things I would prefer copy items but I understand the Merchants quandary.  I could buy one plant and propagate it over the entire grid.

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I agree about some landscape items. I bought a sculpted rock once but I wouldn't have bought it if it wasn't copyable. I wouldn't buy another rock for every rock I wanted for the landscape.

[Phil Deakins]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Yes, clothing is completely different. Selling copy/no-trans clothing makes a lot of sense, and that's what I would have done had I been in that business. I just won't do it with furniture

I did fall foul of copy/no-trans once, though. It is very rare for me to buy clothing, but I had various castle character bots in my castle, and I was adding a 'damsel in distress'. I needed a suitable middle ages outfit for her, and I found one, so I bought it. Then I discovered that I should have checked the perms first, because I couldn't give it to her.

I don't remember why I IMed the creator about it, but it wasn't out of annoyance, or anything like that. I'd soon logged in with the bot and taken her to the store where she was literally about to buy another copy of the outfit, when the creator IMed me, offering to give one to the the bot, which she did.

That was a brilliant experience.

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Shhhhh, now you know where you have to go for clothes for you alt :smileywink:

the creator will even make trans pack for you :smileyhappy:

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It happened years before that little gem appeared in my understanding

[Phil Deakins]

You see, that I don't get. She wanted to sell the houses because she made them, and she wanted to sell them complete with curtains, but she didn't want to pay for what she sold with them, that someone else had made. Well, a small amount once only. That's just being greedy. I get the greed. I just don't get the rationalisation of someone who thinks that way.

[Dillon Levenque]

Not meaning to speak for Phil, either, but his particular modus operandi is a bit different than that of most creators, I would think. His primary product is low prim, low cost furniture. Both of those attributes would be attractive to anyone setting up multiple rental units. Given that those people are also  business people, I think it's reasonable to expect them to pay per item, rather than buying one 75 Linden loveseat and copying it into 25 skyboxes.

I completely agree with the idea that almost anything to do with avatar appearance should be copiable. With other stuff, I don't mind too much either way (although if I get stuff like landscaping and know from the start I'm going to want more than one I'll find a copiable product if one is available.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

You see, that I don't get. She wanted to sell the houses because she made them, and she wanted to sell them complete with curtains, but she didn't want to pay for what she sold with them, that someone else had made. Well, a small amount once only. That's just being greedy. I get the greed. I just don't get the rationalisation of someone who thinks that way.

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Me either, Phil.  Actually, based on her basic non-housing display, I'm not even sure she truly sold houses and landing in the midst of full-perm freebies from one of her profile picks really raised a red flag to me.

Something that I didn't understand is that, to me, building a house is a lot more complicated than my little 1-prim blinds & curtains so I was scratching my head as to why she just couldn't make them herself.

It was one of those encounters that makes an interesting/odd story later...lol.

[Phil Deakins]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

You see, that I don't get. She wanted to sell the houses because she made them, and she wanted to sell them complete with curtains, but she didn't want to pay for what she sold with them, that someone else had made. Well, a small amount once only. That's just being greedy. I get the greed. I just don't get the rationalisation of someone who thinks that way.

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Me either, Phil.  Actually, based on her basic non-housing display, I'm not even sure she truly sold houses and landing in the midst of full-perm freebies from one of her profile picks really raised a red flag to me.

Something that I didn't understand is that, to me, building a house is a lot more complicated than my little 1-prim blinds & curtains so I was scratching my head as to why she just couldn't make them herself.

It was one of those encounters that makes an interesting/odd story later...lol.

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That very thought occurred to me when I was writing my previous post but I didn't say it in case your curtains were super-complex and super-brilliant  Perhaps she didn't make anything at all, not even the houses that she sold, and was just trying to earn money from other people's work.

[Suspiria Finucane]

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

 

I am most likely the most outspoken person I have seen in the forums about copy items

, and I understand the difference between clothing and furniture. I agree with no copy furniture (plants, rocks, trees, etc...), but not no copy clothing.

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You may have met your counter/equal :matte-motes-wink-tongue: Having been involved in countless no copy vs. no transfer debates in the past I have to respectfully (to each their own) disagree. IMO a person should be able to resell (supported by the US Supreme Court "Kirtsaeng v. John Wiley & Sons, Inc.") anything they purchase or in fact give it away if they so choose.

For that reason, when I buy anything, the merchant must offer the option of either type of purchase or I don't support them.

 

[Phil Deakins]

I don't think they'll miss your support Suspiria

[Tex Monday]

*In the past I sold them with copy perms but later realized that a landlord could buy one copy and rez copies for 100 apartments.  Another customer might need just the one set.  See the "What should I do?" dilemma?  My thoughts in selling the curtains with copy perms in the beginning was my own preference as a customer - to have a backup copy in case SL ate the curtains; and I have lost both inventory items AND rezzed items to the mysterious SL black hole.

I totally understand your point..and I think if I were a merchant and I saw my couch or table or whatever in 100 apartments, I would be kind of pissed too. For me, when I buy things for myself, I would rather pay a bit more and have it be copyable than get a non-copy less expensive item...within reason, of course.

It all goes back to not being able to please everyone.

I agree with that as well. there will always be people on both sides of the debate...and each of those people won't have a clue why the other can't feel like they do...but we can agree to disagree.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

You see, that I don't get. She wanted to sell the houses because she made them, and she wanted to sell them complete with curtains, but she didn't want to pay for what she sold with them, that someone else had made. Well, a small amount once only. That's just being greedy. I get the greed. I just don't get the rationalisation of someone who thinks that way.

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Me either, Phil.  Actually, based on her basic non-housing display, I'm not even sure she truly sold houses and landing in the midst of full-perm freebies from one of her profile picks really raised a red flag to me.

Something that I didn't understand is that, to me, building a house is a lot more complicated than my little 1-prim blinds & curtains so I was scratching my head as to why she just couldn't make them herself.

It was one of those encounters that makes an interesting/odd story later...lol.

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That very thought occurred to me when I was writing my previous post but I didn't say it in case your curtains were super-complex and super-brilliant 

Perhaps she didn't make anything at all, not even the houses that she sold, and was just trying to earn money from other people's work.

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*Wiping tears from my eyes laughing*

I'm the first to say my curtains/blinds are nothing close to super-anything; except perhaps super-low-prim (1 prim), and super-low-price. *Grins*

[Perrie Juran]

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

 

I am most likely the most outspoken person I have seen in the forums about copy items

, and I understand the difference between clothing and furniture. I agree with no copy furniture (plants, rocks, trees, etc...), but not no copy clothing.

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You may have met your counter/equal :matte-motes-wink-tongue: Having been involved in countless no copy vs. no transfer debates in the past I have to respectfully (to each their own) disagree. IMO a person should be able to resell (supported by the US Supreme Court "Kirtsaeng v. John Wiley & Sons, Inc.") anything they purchase or in fact give it away if they so choose.

For that reason, when I buy anything, the merchant must offer the option of either type of purchase or I don't support them.

 

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It is going to be very interesting to see how this plays out because the ruling in "Kirtsaeng" dealt with physical and not digital goods.

Note that after the "Kirtsaeng" ruling in another case dealing with digital goods a lower Court ruled:

"ReDigi seeks judicial amendment of the Copyright Act to reach its desired policy outcome. However, "ound policy, as well as history, supports [the Court's] consistent deference to Congress when major technological innovations alter the market for copyrighted materials. Congress has the constitutional authority and the institutional ability to accommodate fully the varied permutations of competing interests that are inevitably implicated by such new technology. Sony, 464 U.S. at 431. Such deference often counsels for a limited interpretation of copyright protection. However, here, the Court cannot of its own accord condone the wholesale application of the first sale defense to the digital sphere, particularly when Congress has declined to take that step."    (my bolding)

So right now concerning digital goods, unless Congress acts or the Supreme Court enters a judgement on it, "Kirstaeng" does not apply wholesale to digital goods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReDigi  for a brief overview.

[Marigold Devin]

In real life they say ignorance is no defence, but in Second Life if component parts of something you buy and make into something else then sell on, generally the worst I've ever known happen is the items containing the stolen content have been removed and a warning has been issued.

I had in my inventory in 2008 some apparently stolen goods. I was unaware of how big the problem of copybotting was, but was freaked out that Linden Lab sent me a message warning me about owning said content, but that was that.

The blogger who gave you grief might just have form, and be some kind of troll.

There's tons of reseller stuff out there, that gets tweaked, modified, scripts added etc. Its normal.

It is very doubtful indeed that Linden Lab are going to shut your account over this. Try not to worry.

[Astrid Kaufmat]

Hi ,Tiola.

Don't worry if you're in good faith and if that's your original stuff, they'll go nowhere. Let them bother with it it just takes the time that it leaves.

As maker myself I would also tell you as tip to be careful using  kits of full perm stuff unless you know that they come from  makers with reputations , don't use free or cheap builders kits (of sculpt , prims or meshes). Always always make yourself sure where they come from.

Another tip that I feel to give you is never give away full perm primitives.. those nasty braggers out there lately could convert your prims into something that seems made by you when you never have done it, this is what they often do  when we see official  makers' stuff stolen and you check the maker of that item/s and see that it is a Linden ( that's cause they took the linden full perm primitives from library).

Keep also handy the things you are accused of having copybotted and turn on the propiety window make a screenshot where it's shown the date and the name of creator, do the same also for your sculpt maps if you used any, this will be a good proof to show to LL and to any other.

You have to known that around SL there are also unautorized self estabilished sheriffs who go around with fancy huds trying to find out if some item is copybotted, well they are twice lame:

1) cause they're not working for LL

2) cause those hud can fail really easy and I explain you why.

If you're used to make sculpties with maya for example you could import in secondlife your whole sculpt set all at once with a thing named prim composer,

What's worng with it, The bad thing is that even if you're the creator of those prims and even if you're the maker, all those prims would shown all the same date and time and this would be detected by those koddos hud as a cb attempt.

Don't worry if you're in good faith LL is not that naive to punish you for somethng that you haven't done.