Dear Linden Lab, Where's My Money!!!??

[Lexi Zelin]

Now that we are all FORCED to use Linden Labs SLOOOWWWWW service to cash out our lindens this seems perfectly fitting. :)

 

Dear Linden Lab, WHERE'S MY MONEY!???!

LOL, all of us merchants and business people in SL have to laugh about this or we WILL go insane!

[Kahlie Niven]

Welcome to SL's paradise.

That so strongly reminds me how SL provoked the fall of Ginko's bank some years ago (and as a side effect made me lose 60,000 l$).

This time that's more about 700€.

 

[Cameron Vasiliov]

*cough*

At least you can use the official site as last resourse, some people can't eve do that :smileyindifferent:

[Amethyst Jetaime]

---

Kahlie Niven wrote:

Welcome to SL's paradise.

 

That so strongly reminds me how SL provoked the fall of Ginko's bank some years ago (and as a side effect made me lose 60,000 l$).

 

This time that's more about 700€.

 

---

It is always easier to point fingers than it is to accept the consequences of  your choices.

 

LL did not cause you to lose money from dealing with Ginko's, Ginko's did.  They were shut down by LL because they couldn't/wouldn't fulfill the promises they made to their customers.  You are also partly responsible for investing money in a shady operation that wasn't a RL bank, but just another resident that had no business running a bank as they were totally unqualified to do so.

You have not lost any money now either.  You can cash out through the Lindex by obtaining a PayPal account which is available in all countries (193 to be exact) other than a few rogue nations.  You don't need a verified PayPal account to do this.  Just open a regular PayPal account and when you cash out you tell LL which account to send it to.  If PayPal is not available to you, you can request a wire transfer to your bank.  Of course since LL doesn't buy your L's but just facilitates the sale to another resident, you will be responsible for paying any fees, just like I am responsible for paying them when I cash out or when I order things from Euro businesses that don't accept USD's or charge a conversion fee if they do accept them.  It is the way international commerce works.  LL can not subsidize this for you as they would have to pay more than the proceeds of the sale of L's out of their own pocket.  It is hardly fair to other customers to do that for you but not pay an equivalent amount to everyone.

If you don't want to do this you can hold on to your L's and cash them out in the future.  LL has made this statement on their blog:

"We know that users are also concerned about the length of the LindeX’s cashout process and the limited choice of currencies when selling L$. We’re currently investigating ways to improve that experience for users while still providing superior fraud protections, and hope to hasten the cashout process and offer new currency options in the future."

I suspect that they are working as quickly as they can to do this as it is in their best interest from a business standpoint. Of course you don't have to do this either.  But choosing not to is your choice.

Relying on TPE's was always done at your own risk and LL offered no guarantee that they would be allowed or able to continue business.  LL has not control over the law either, they must follow it or face serious consequences. 

[Kahlie Niven]

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

It is always easier to point fingers than it is to accept the consequences of  your choices

LL did not cause you to lose money from dealing with Ginko's, Ginko's did.  They were shut down by LL because they couldn't/wouldn't fulfill the promises they made to their customers.  You are also partly responsible for investing money in a shady operation that wasn't a RL bank, but just another resident that had no business running a bank as they were totally unqualified to do so.

You have not lost any money now either.  You can cash out through the Lindex by obtaining a PayPal account which is available in all countries (193 to be exact) other than a few rogue nations.  You don't need a verified PayPal account to do this.  Just open a regular PayPal account and when you cash out you tell LL which account to send it to.  If PayPal is not available to you, you can request a wire transfer to your bank.  Of course since LL doesn't buy your L's but just facilitates the sale to another resident, you will be responsible for paying any fees, just like I am responsible for paying them when I cash out or when I order things from Euro businesses that don't accept USD's or charge a conversion fee if they do accept them.  It is the way international commerce works.  LL can not subsidize this for you as they would have to pay more than the proceeds of the sale of L's out of their own pocket.  It is hardly fair to other customers to do that for you but not pay an equivalent amount to everyone.

If you don't want to do this you can hold on to your L's and cash them out in the future.  LL has made this statement on their blog:

"We know that users are also concerned about the length of the LindeX’s cashout process and the limited choice of currencies when selling L$. We’re currently investigating ways to improve that experience for users while still providing superior fraud protections, and hope to hasten the cashout process and offer new currency options in the future."

I suspect that they are working as quickly as they can to do this as it is in their best interest from a business standpoint. Of course you don't have to do this either.  But choosing not to is your choice.

Relying on TPE's was always done at your own risk and LL offered no guarantee that they would be allowed or able to continue business.  LL has not control over the law either, they must follow it or face serious consequences. 

---

- About Ginko .. of course, back in 2007, Ginko had to be blamed (and maybe my greediness at that time too) ... What I was stating is that LL provoked the panick that made all those SL banks fail at a single time (which was the prelude to subprime crisis, ..interesting how SL can pre-empt fashions), by forbidding gambling. That said, at that time I only thought "well, I took risks to earn insane interests and I lost" .. normal, and not really subject to rant, but still happened.

- About losing money, yes I did, providing LL won't change its policy about withdrawal and sticks us to paypal..as it slows down the move of money...it creates a liquidity crisis, which is a loss as long as the business goes on (postponed income)...not really a thievery, excepted that money stays longer in LL's hands instead in our hands (so they earn interests on it, and we lose some).

- About Paypal, don't worry, I already have a verified account since 2009. (was originally using Lindex + paypal, then virwox + paypal, then virwox+skrill, when paypal changed their rules in 2011).

 

- About TPEs, I'll only refer to term 1 of the TOS and the 30 days delay that wasn't respected here.

[Cincia Singh]

---

Kahlie Niven wrote:

- About Ginko .. of course, back in 2007, Ginko had to be blamed (and maybe my greediness at that time too) ... What I was stating is that LL provoked the panick that made all those SL banks fail at a single time (which was the prelude to subprime crisis, ..interesting how SL can pre-empt fashions), by forbidding gambling. That said, at that time I only thought "well, I took risks to earn insane interests and I lost" .. normal, and not really subject to rant, but still happened.

- About losing money, yes I did, providing LL won't change its policy about withdrawal and sticks us to paypal..as it slows down the move of money...it creates a liquidity crisis, which is a loss as long as the business goes on (postponed income)...not really a thievery, excepted that money stays longer in LL's hands instead in our hands (so they earn interests on it, and we lose some).

- About Paypal, don't worry, I already have a verified account since 2009. (was originally using Lindex + paypal, then virwox + paypal, then virwox+skrill, when paypal changed their rules in 2011).

 

- About TPEs, I'll only refer to term 1 of the TOS and the 30 days delay that wasn't respected here.

---

About SL banks ... they never were really banks they were other residents operating ponzi/pyramid schemes and were doomed to failure from the start. Good riddance.

About LL causing an inworld business to have a liquidity crisis ... actually LL makes all the L$ that get transferred and some people "cash out". LL doesn't invest L$ (like a bank or investment house) because they're not really money and you can't take them to JP Morgan and deposit them ... LL simply transfers them around.  If a business has a liquidity crisis it's of its own doing through poor planning and honestly just "part of the game".

About the ToS and 30 days ... RL laws and enforcement agencies couldn't care less about the ToS of a virtual world. When the agencies say "do it now" it gets done NOW.

[Neyo Aleixandre]

And yet, they've had over 7 years to speed up their own lindex process and keep their playerbase using the "standard" method of cashing out.  They have never felt the need.

Its actually slower now than it was years ago. I used to cash out in 3-4 days and, while i hated it, it was easier to predict. I have seen people cash out last week using lindex and still have yet to recieve their payment. I have no clue how they managed to make it even slower. Ohh wait, large volumes of people using a system that seems to require human verification, though its more of a sloth flailing its arms slowly at a keyboard to press confirm.

[Madeliefste Oh]

---

Cincia Singh wrote:

---

Kahlie Niven wrote:

- About Ginko .. of course, back in 2007, Ginko had to be blamed (and maybe my greediness at that time too) ... What I was stating is that LL provoked the panick that made all those SL banks fail at a single time (which was the prelude to subprime crisis, ..interesting how SL can pre-empt fashions), by forbidding gambling. That said, at that time I only thought "well, I took risks to earn insane interests and I lost" .. normal, and not really subject to rant, but still happened.

---

About SL banks ... they never were really banks they were other residents operating ponzi/pyramid schemes and were doomed to failure from the start. Good riddance.

---

Indeed, you trused other residents appointed himselves as banks.

In my memory it was not LL who caused the panic, but the anymous owner from Ginko bank who run away with 750.000 usd that other residents had trust him in the past 3 years. And very soon other banks followed him.

LL did get a lot of complaints about it, and as a result LL  forbade to run banks any longer on the grid.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Madeliefste Oh wrote:

---

Cincia Singh wrote:

---

Kahlie Niven wrote:

- About Ginko .. of course, back in 2007, Ginko had to be blamed (and maybe my greediness at that time too) ... What I was stating is that LL provoked the panick that made all those SL banks fail at a single time (which was the prelude to subprime crisis, ..interesting how SL can pre-empt fashions), by forbidding gambling. That said, at that time I only thought "well, I took risks to earn insane interests and I lost" .. normal, and not really subject to rant, but still happened.

---

About SL banks ... they never were really banks they were other residents operating ponzi/pyramid schemes and were doomed to failure from the start. Good riddance.

---

Indeed, you trused other residents

appointed

himselves as banks.

In my memory it was not LL who caused the panic, but the anymous owner from Ginko bank who run away with 750.000 usd that other residents had trust him in the past 3 years. And very soon other banks followed him.

LL did get a lot of complaints about it, and as a result LL  forbade to run banks any longer on the grid.

---

LL did not forbid banks.  What they said was for a bank to operate it had to have a RL registration or charter.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Policy_regarding_inworld_banks

[Marigold Devin]

Crumbs, I don't know if its more sleep or new spectacles that I need, but I read the title of the thread as...

[Lexi Zelin]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Amethyst Jetaime]

---

Kahlie Niven wrote:

- About TPEs, I'll only refer to term 1 of the TOS and the 30 days delay that wasn't respected here.

---

The 30 day notice doesn't apply to directives given to businesses.  Every business of course has to have at least one avatar and they are referred to as Corporate Users in the TOS.  The company behind the avatar is a Sponsoring organization.  The TOS says: (bolding is mine)

 

2.4 Requirements for Corporate Users and Sponsoring Organizations.

If you are using the Service on behalf of a company, organization or other legal entity (collectively, "User Organization"), you represent and warrant that you are an employee of that User Organization or other person authorized to do so. If you are a Sponsoring Organization, you represent that (I) you will keep all content in the area General, as defined in our Maturity Ratings, (ii) you are solely responsible for all content and activities that take place within your estate on the Service, and (iii) you will comply with such guidelines as Second Life may issue from time to time with respect to the Affiliated Account program.

This provision is not new to the TOS so there is no 30 day window required before it goes into effect.  Note too that the provisions do not say you will comply within 30 days.  Sponsoring Organizations MUST comply with anything LL tells them about doing business in SL upon getting a notice OR by the date given in the notice.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

---

Kahlie Niven wrote:

- About TPEs, I'll only refer to term 1 of the TOS and the 30 days delay that wasn't respected here.

---

The 30 day notice doesn't apply to directives given to businesses.  Every business of course has to have at least one avatar and they are referred to as Corporate Users in the TOS.  The company behind the avatar is a Sponsoring organization.  The TOS says: (bolding is mine)

 

2.4 Requirements for Corporate Users and Sponsoring Organizations.

If you are using the Service on behalf of a company, organization or other legal entity (collectively, "User Organization"), you represent and warrant that you are an employee of that User Organization or other person authorized to do so.

If you are a Sponsoring Organization

, you represent that (I) you will keep all content in the area General, as defined in our Maturity Ratings, (ii) you are solely responsible for all content and activities that take place within your estate on the Service, and (iii)

you will comply with such guidelines as Second Life may issue from time to time with respect to the Affiliated Account program.

This provision is not new to the TOS so there is no 30 day window required before it goes into effect.  Note too that the provisions do not say you will comply within 30 days

. 

Sponsoring Organizations MUST comply with anything LL tells them about doing business in SL upon getting a notice OR by the date given in the notice.

---

Add to this the fact that just because LL allowed an Individual to represent a Business in Second Life, no contract exists between Second Life and the Business unless they had arranged for one as was the case with Non Profits when there was the discount program and still is the case with Educational Programs that want to include teens under the age of 16.

Individuals doing this had to warrant that they were legally entitled to act on behalf of their organization.  The agreement was then between Linden Lab and the organization (business).

From the API Terms Of Use ( http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:API_Terms_of_Use )

 

5. TERM AND TERMINATION

5.1 Term

The term of these API Terms shall commence on the date upon which you download any of the APIs and shall continue in force thereafter, unless terminated as provided herein ("Term").

5.2 Termination

Linden Lab may change, suspend or terminate your access and use of all or any aspect of the APIs without any liability to you. In addition, either party may terminate the API Terms at any time, for any reason, or for no reason.

5.3 Effect of Termination

Upon the termination of the API Terms for any reason (i) all license rights granted herein shall terminate; (ii) you shall immediately delete any and all SL Marks from Your Website to the extent used under these Terms of Use; and (iii) you must immediately cease your use of, and access to, the APIs. You agree that Linden Lab will not be liable for any termination of this Agreement, and you understand that you shall not be entitled to any refunds of fees for such termination.

[Dartagan Shepherd]

So, I think I'm getting the gist of this. LL is really saying ...

[Perrie Juran]

And there is something wrong with this?

Why does it appear so hard for people to understand that this is about a business doing business.

Why do we think that Linden Lab is obligated to bend to our every whim and fancy?

I am a firm advocate of the fact that I think that Linden Lab can do a hugely superior job at Customer Service.

But that does not change the fact that they are a Business doing what Businesses do.

Again, I think that Linden Lab can do a heck of a lot better job.  And I do make my voice known on issues.

But they are a Business.  And this type of language is pretty average for any Business.

 

[Dartagan Shepherd]

Wasn't really directing that at you in particular. Just making a joke about them promoting "your world", then taking our products, our money converted to fake money, our tier, all of our sinks and sucking some who knows ... 70% of the global pie unto themselves and then disclaiming away all liability which they can mostly only manage because of the "fake" nature of the world, it's products and its money while we get the smallest piece of the "economy".

At any rate, going more in depth would just be a thread derail, I'm waiting for government to do the defining and for the TOS to reflect something like reality..

But regardless of the TOS and their rights or profit, claiming no guarantees, no liability and the ability to change any thing at any time ... just a bit on the ludicrous side.

Like I said, just providing a punchline to the whole thing.

 

[Perrie Juran]

---

Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

Wasn't really directing that at you in particular. Just making a joke about them promoting "your world", then taking our products, our money converted to fake money, our tier, all of our sinks and sucking some who knows ... 70% of the global pie unto themselves and then disclaiming away all liability which they can mostly only manage because of the "fake" nature of the world, it's products and its money while we get the smallest piece of the "economy".

At any rate, going more in depth would just be a thread derail, I'm waiting for government to do the defining and for the TOS to reflect something like reality..

But regardless of the TOS and their rights or profit, claiming no guarantees, no liability and the ability to change any thing at any time ... just a bit on the ludicrous side.

Like I said, just providing a punchline to the whole thing.

 

---

cool

[ImaTest1488314069]

---

Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

Wasn't really directing that at you in particular. Just making a joke about them promoting "your world", then taking our products, our money converted to fake money, our tier, all of our sinks and sucking some who knows ... 70% of the global pie unto themselves and then disclaiming away all liability which they can mostly only manage because of the "fake" nature of the world, it's products and its money while we get the smallest piece of the "economy".

At any rate, going more in depth would just be a thread derail, I'm waiting for government to do the defining and for the TOS to reflect something like reality..

But regardless of the TOS and their rights or profit, claiming no guarantees, no liability and the ability to change any thing at any time ... just a bit on the ludicrous side.

Like I said, just providing a punchline to the whole thing.

 

---

Isn't this pretty similar to what some inworld creators do, though? They take the customers' money, apparently as much as they can get. They string customers along for ages with promises of improvements, new products, changes and whatever else have you. Yet they rarely, if ever, actually change. Not all creators or merchants of course, but there are plenty of them. Sometimes they're the loudest voices when they, themselves, feel wronged.

In those cases we always say buyer beware. It's always up to the customer to either allow or disallow this action. We tend to tell people "you should have known better", "you shouldn't have waited so long" or "it's your fault you just kept paying for subpar product" and all other sorts of nonsense answers.

But when it is us on the other end, when it is our head being pushed down by the boot of the man, we feel differently. Or at least when we feel it is our head being pushed down.

Personally I believe if you have, or you are, committing the same(or similar) acts you're complaining about, you haven't a leg to stand on. The lab is certainly not the only business to leave customers hanging for months on end. They aren't the first business that has, is and can, cause an issue for any potential secondary business branching out from them.

I definitely do not agree with a lot of what the lab does, but I absolutely loathe seeing merchants and creators who have some prety crappy business sense, acting as if they can (or worse, do) do better than them. Especially when those merchants and creators have really made a mint off the customers they've left hanging. Much in the way the lab does. I'd hate to see the lab come in here and complain about, or worse bash, merchants who are treating their customers poorly, when they, themselves, are doing, have done and likely will do, just as bad. There are plenty of merchants that hold pretty tight to the "my product, I'll do what I want with it, you can like it or leave it, but I won't make you whole after the fact". The lab, it seems, has the same sort of approach sometimes. It never bodes well for anyone. Merchants who behave this way have very little to no room to complain about things they, themselves, have done, or are doing.

 

[Dartagan Shepherd]

Well, it's true some merchants can be worse or as or as controlling with their business as LL. It's also true that there are many merchants that handle their business far better than LL.

The big difference though is the general business model of LL vs. Merchants.

The former is a corporation that runs itself like an eternal startup. It's a "cake and eat it too" company. It just wants it every way you can imagine ... both high subscription and free play style monetization, all their content is free to them, bypassing many RL laws with its virtualization, generally chipping away at anything it can financially. It monetizes people.

Merchants on the other hand, are lemonaide stand businesses. Not to be insulting about that, I just mean that they often work for themselves, they're entrepreneurs at their respective levels. When they're on top of  their game they run with very traditional concpets ... good product, good service, regular updates, quality for the price, etc. We monetize our products.

The LL model and the merchant/land baron model are a mismatch ... complete opposites.

Some of these types of discussions while interesting tend to miss the point completely though, which is that selling online or offline follows business and consumer law. There is no fake money and charges against fake money. Because it's real money there are certain assurances and protections that do not apply with LL.

I don't care personally if LL manages to be rolling in profit margin. What I care about is that they way they go after profit and bypass law only serves to suck the life out of the product they've created with a bunch of loopholes. It isn't good for the opportunities that drive this world. You can't respect it on a business level, because it's not a two way street. And it should be, because it's not their "stuff" in the world, it's ours.

They have today profit, enough to invest in new products as a gamble, and Phil scrambling to build a Third Life and yet the world declines because of the way they run the business and their pricing.

This latest issue is a prime example. As others have said LL has had 10 years to add more payment methods for cashing out and improving the speed with which you can get your money. But until recently it hasn't been "money", it's been err ... tokens with no value.

Now that it is declared virtual currency, it comes with more responsibility and forces the company to better respond to its customers regarding this virtual currency. This is a good thing. It's a start. Perhaps one day they'll have to face the fact that if you're going to enable people to sell their stuff with value, for money with value, you need to be a responsible partner ... yes partner.

Perhaps people need consumer protection against merchants as well, but it's far less of an issue than what LL does to far more people for now.

And I'm out of coffee again, which makes it a good time to cut and run from this post.