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Paul Hexem
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I'm about to give up here.  :)  This started as off as a thread condemning Linden Lab for using targeted ads on their websites (not in-world, just the SL related websites).  In some people's furious denouncements of the recently introduced practice they levied some serious accusations against LL claiming they were purposefully placing less than desirable ads (the see your online arrest record, visit some sexy girlie sites, etc)..  I don't believe that is true and I said so.  Then we get the claims that the pop-ups can lead to mal-ware of some type being installed on people's computers.  Again I don't believe that to be true (though, if you happen to click on the ad and it takes you to a malicious website that is certainly a possibility....but the pop-up, itself won't install mal-ware).  Then we get into a discussion about being tracked on the Internet.  Tracking cookies are everywhere and if you don't know that then you probably should get off the Internet all together (that's entirely my opinion......take or leave it).  Installing a pop-blocker will not prevent tracking cookies from being installed on your computer (blocking those cookies will to a very large extent but not completely)  Deleting cookies after the fact only gets rid of the cookie and prevents further tracking (to an large extent but not entirely).  Cookies are not bad things.....your preferences for this forum site are stored as cookies (without them you would have to constantly redo your preferences.  Tracking cookies have been a huge concern for years.....yet they are completely legal for websites to use (they ain't going away any time soon so it's best to understand what they are and how to protect your personal information....tracking cookies merely report back to the website that installed it to tell what site the computer with the cookie is visiting).  Most people, myself included, don't particularly care for tracking cookies but they are there and I know that they are doing so I adjust my web browsing accordingly (I seldom visit sites that I might not want to get ads from.......if I do then I block cookies while I'm on the site (that is not 100% effective but it helps).  Everyone here has tacking cookies on their computer........that's where your ads on Marketplace are coming from.  Not from Linden Lab.  And, basically, that's all I wanted to say.......you are your own worse enemy if you are receiving objectionable ads on Marketplace (or most other websites).

Now the discussion has turned to Linden Lab being in poor financial shape.  That may or may not be true but the indications are that it is doing fine at the moment.  When you make statements about a company going broke and you have not facts to back it up then you are speculating........no matter how much "evidence" you attempt to throw out.  Like LL has lost it's innovation edge.  Have they?  Who's overtaking them?  OpenSim?  What platform (besides OpenSim which is cloned off SL) provides the users mesh content created by fellow users (a platform, not VRML).  As far as I have heard there is absolutely no serious competition to SL (good or bad, that's a fact).  The fact that SL is the most well known virtual world that is over 95% user created with no serious competition in the wind says that LL is probably in pretty shape financially.  All you have to do is think....but it's hard to think objectively when all you can do is **bleep** about a company.  I've been call a pimp and whore so far in this thread (not by name but by the context of some of the comments).  And that's because I happen to think LL is doing fine and is not my enemy...........I don't hate them.  When I see something like targeted ads on the SL websites I don't particularly care for it.........but I can see a reason for LL doing it. And because I don't think LL has sinister motives I don't suspect them of anything malicious.  I guess that makes me some LL puppet or pimp (or whore).

Why do I have to put up with that?  Because I'm in a "minority"?  Because I piss you off by trying to make you think on your own........it's easy to "group think" (just go with the flow and no thought is necessary).  Continue to throw out all your un-backed up "facts".  Continue with your unhappiness with LL.  I'll have my fun as I've been doing for over 7 years and occasionally joining these (mostly comical) LL **bleep** fests we so often get here on the forums.

But a question that always creeps into my mind is why are you still here?  LL is stupid, they rip you off, they spy on you, they go out of their way to annoy you....why in the world would you stick around for such treatment?  Don't tell me that you do it because you are so concerned about SL and it's residents...........you have shown no such evidence (not in this thread or any of the other 1000 or so that I've read over the years).  Children like being "victims".......are you all children?

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You just don't get it do you?

 

SL could be so much more but.........

There is a culture in LL that just won't listen to good ideas, I personally offered to build a themed low lag  welcome area for LL at no cost also with ideas of how to make it rezz quickly by incorporating the textures into the cache on the original viewer download but hey they never took me up on the offer! Instead they continue to use outdated and in many peoples view rubbish new resident welcome areas!

 

I have a whole list of innovative ideas that would be effective and cheap for sl and I have used some of them myself
!

But what is the point if no one listens or even tries to comprehend, take a look at LL twiter page your see there LL have no interest in sl now the only think they tweet is about the new apps that in my opinion are well never going to amount to much!

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I've had some good ideas too.  I've mentioned some to Lindens (back in the days when Lindens often roamed the grid).  They went no where.  So, because of that, I'm supposed to be like you..........LL is nothing but a bunch of buffoons.  All because they don't see things the way I see them.  Your ideas may be good ones (and might even improve the SL experience for everyone)..........but, they also could be loony ideas that would destroy the experience for everyone.  If you are so talented and expert on building and lag then why the heck are not out utilizing all that talent and knowledge and make the world a better place? 

I think I know why.  :)

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This is not directed towards any poster in particular-

I am not a fan of the advertisements,  I do not like the way they are formatted onto the Second Life Marketplace, quite unsightly in my opinion.  I for one, have always appreciated Linden Labs and what they offer the community.   This endeavor however is not one that I can support.

The advertisements as of yet,  do not harm me as a merchant, though they are quite annoying (less the ad-block software).  What will possibly injure merchants is the use of SL vendor advertisements in lieu of the Real Life listings we are seeing now.  As someone previously mentioned: How will it impact the *Your Name Here* store when the *Her name there* store has advertisements listed directly on your Marketplace profile/store.  This for me is the most bothersome aspect about these new advertisements. On a more personal level, I often showcase my work to friends and family via the Marketplace website and the advertisements, again in my opinion, seem to cheapen the element of the community.  This is slightly embarassing to me.

As I stated, I do not believe the majority of us SL merchants would even be able to pay for the advertisements - but as it is proposed, LL may provide a low cost option to do just that. I only hope that it is monitored more closely than the advertisements are being now.

On a last and equally insignificant point in the grand scheme of things:


I am surprised at the combative remarks being made.  I was under the impression that this was a discussion regarding the new advertisements - not a place to showcase your LL hatred or verbally trash and dissect the opinions of others repeatedly.


I do hope that we can continue with our ideas and thoughts on this matter without the trivial undercurrent.  Pettiness can not be hidden beneath the thick layers of heavy dialect.

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I have been building ins sl full time for over 4 years i often spend over 16 hours a day in sl running my business and running a club for over 4 and a half years I also have a seasonal business thats only one for 3 months a year, that in ists self is famous in sl!

I know how to build well I know about sl if you work out the hours i have spent in sl compared to the normal person my age would be like 15 years!so i think I know what i am talking about I dont waste my time posting in forums as you can see by my post count!

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:smileysad:I want to regurgitate, becuase of these ads......... Well placed... Pfft... there is no such thing.... I scroll up so I do not have to look at them..... they are an eye sore.. and  at another site if you pay to have your name.. they will remove the ads........should be the same here those with permuim accounts should not see them....

I would not trust my computer to click on half those ads anyway.....Yes they are safe.. but never know when something might slip in...

 

I say to those who have premuim accounts.. we should not see them!.

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

 

I've personally worked with people who have created most of the core elements that make up SL, years before SL existed, including 3D worlds in VRML made of nothing but user generated content, with monetized currency, etc.

   The concept of virtual economy goes back decades at the very least.

 

Anyone remember Active Worlds?  I gave it a try when it first came out and offered time-limited free accounts.  All I saw was blank space everywhere and a friend telling me I could build anything I wanted.  I had no earthly idea what he meant and fled back to IRC. 

Years later in SL I met a couple who first met each other in AW and from there to SL.  Not sure if AW is still around, but that was cetainly a precursor to SL.

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

 

But a question that always creeps into my mind is why are you still here? 

Speaking for myself, but I have heard others post similarly, I love SL.  I enjoy so many aspects of what is available and have been since I arrived in 2007.  I *want* SL to grow and thrive.  It is exactly for those reasons I get angry when LL makes decisions, in my opinion only, that decreases user retention and threatens the continued existence of SL.

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

I put mesh in the same category as sculpties.  They are here to stay. They serve a purpose.  Many users absolutely love them. 

I'm not a fan.  Call me "old school".  Give me that very primitive "prim" any day. 
:)

Totally agree with you. ;) 

I had to post that bit because it was the mention of mesh and your response that led to me asking if you were a redhead. *Grins*

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One other thing to point out about these ads that I learned about. It is completely incorrect to say we are seeing the ads only because of the sites we go to. I can tell you with absolute certainy I have never gone to an adult based website, never viewed porn, never looked at criminals, never even went to a dating website.  So I did a little digging and it is not based only on your viewing preferences. It is also based VERY heavily on the website the ads are being displayed on. It's called Contextual targeting and is based on the content, keywords and structure of the website that the ads are being displayed on. In fact from what I read, contextual targeting takes precendense over the viewers browsing history. So for those of us who are seeing these smut ads and don't understand why, it isn't because you are visting smut sites like someone was trying to claim earlier and saying we should just visit other websites. It is because the secondlife website contains a large variety of adult content, therefore will show adult based ads. Just go on the marketplace and search for anything related to what those ads might advertise for and it's there.

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Your factoids M'Lady, are a breath of fresh air.

Rusty myself, but there may be another consideration in that it's possible that browsing habits picked up by surfing the marketplace (and any other ad riddled pages) may propagate back to the ad network.

Meaning it may be possible that SL browsing may taint ads that are delivered to you elswhere.

@anyone else

Apologies if I came off as an unsavory individual or a know it all and overly combative. Had only meant to debunk some things, interject some fact and to defend the right to have an opinion on issues and not have to be criticized for it, whatever that opinion might be.

Not that I would admit to personal flaws, so I'm just going to blame Darrius for all of this, who should have been here doing his job, but who has been negligent and missing in action of late.

So thanks Darrius, thanks a bunch.

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When I first saw these, it was for Versu. After finding out that, no, I didn't have any adware or other such garbage on my computer, I went and found out what Versu was. Turns out, it had something to do with SL. Not at all interested(can't rememebr what Versu is now, it was that cool) but whatever.

Then come the mugshot mag ads. Wow. Ok, I MUST have some kind of virus. This is the kind of thing you see in a crappy bodega for 5 bucks. Again, no. So I searched the forums, and here i am.

LL's people have never been good at showing off their best, but these ads, are trash. I could understand if they had some quality, or at least well-known advertising on here. But mugshots? And for some of you **bleep** dating and shopping? Someone fell asleep at the wheel, and the ship has been hijacked by common internet scum.

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I'm about to give up here. :smileyhappy: This started as off as a thread condemning Linden Lab for using targeted ads on their websites (not in-world, just the SL related websites).

No, this thread started out very specifically discussing ads on the marketplace- you should try reading the thread from the first post instead of just making things up. My problem specifically (a post you never saw fit to respond to on it's merits) was that they are displaying ads they will collect revenue on in people's marketplace stores where user-created content is sold when they are already getting a sales commission. LL is having their cake and eating it too, at the expense of the same people who keep their world somewhat interesting. Can you imagine a world made only of Linden content? Well, at least it would be professional, right?

In some people's furious denouncements of the recently introduced practice they levied some serious accusations against LL claiming they were purposefully placing less than desirable ads (the see your online arrest record, visit some sexy girlie sites, etc).. I don't believe that is true and I said so.

LL did however purposefully choose to place ads from 3rd party ad networks, knowing full well that the ads in question would be displayed to some of their users. They also haven't changed any of the default settings. These are willing decisions made by LL, and I'd like to know why LL should not be held responsible for making them? There are consequences (arguably good and bad) for such decisions, but you have displayed a tendency to beat down anyone who isn't full of glowing praise for all that LL has ever done.

Then we get the claims that the pop-ups can lead to mal-ware of some type being installed on people's computers. Again I don't believe that to be true (though, if you happen to click on the ad and it takes you to a malicious website that is certainly a possibility....but the pop-up, itself won't install mal-ware).

You have shown on many occasions in this thread that what you believe is wrong. This is one such occasion, and my experience directly contradicts your belief. I have, on many occasions, removed pop-up fake ads for fake virus scanners that were installed by ads - and not even pop-ups. Google drive-by installs. They usually exploit graphic library vulnerabilities by putting very specific sets of byte patterns in their ad images - ultimately malware is installed that directs the user to a fake site that sells software to "fix the problem" - really, it's the ultimate phishing scam to collect people's credit/debit card numbers. The eastern European crime syndicates sell entire kits that include a registered domain, web-server hosting and the files for a legitimate looking site that infected PCs are directed to in - as well as images to use for "advertisements" with the various ad networks. These things have gotten so clever that they will actually manipulate files to fake out virus scanners. The only way to get rid of these that I've found is to start windows in safe mode, and I've only seen one program that removes them.

Then we get into a discussion about being tracked on the Internet.

Let me set some things straight here, because I can't stand such misinformation being put out there. Cookies are a necessity because HTTP is a stateless protocol. This means that every single request your browser makes to a web server is a brand new connection. You mentioned the tracking of IPs in an earlier thread, but that is not practical for session management (or tracking a user's browsing habits), because so many IPs are NAT'd behind a firewall, corporate intranets, etc. Cookies, which are passed back and forth in a HTTP header, are what make session management possible. Session management allows for things like the shopping cart on the marketplace. There is a bit of work that goes into the server side code for any website using session management, but that's largely invisible to anyone using a web browser to view a site.

Tracking cookies are everywhere and if you don't know that then you probably should get off the Internet all together (that's entirely my opinion......take or leave it).

You're quite conceited, you know that? You publicly display your ignorance of web-based technologies, and you know next to nothing compared to every web developer I know in this area, yet I don't see web developers running around saying you "should get off the internet all together (sic)" Is this what you consider professional behavior?

Installing a pop-blocker will not prevent tracking cookies from being installed on your computer (blocking those cookies will to a very large extent but not completely)

I have a pop-up blocker built right into my browser. I'm pretty sure most browsers have that option now, and I highly recommend people use them - not because they will block cookies, but because they will block pop-ups. It's a great example of using a feature for the purpose it was designed for - see how that works?

Deleting cookies after the fact only gets rid of the cookie and prevents further tracking (to an large extent but not entirely).

I have no idea what you meant to say here - it's nonsensical and self-contradictory.

Cookies are not bad things.....your preferences for this forum site are stored as cookies (without them you would have to constantly redo your preferences.

Cookies are notused to store preferences on the forum site - this can be proven by logging out, clearing all of the cookies in your browser cache, then logging back in. Your preferences will remain the same, because they are stored in a LL database somewhere, not as browser cookies. I clear my cookies constantly, and have never had to redo my preferences once. Maybe you should try it sometime.

Tracking cookies have been a huge concern for years.....yet they are completely legal for websites to use (they ain't going away any time soon so it's best to understand what they are and how to protect your personal information....tracking cookies merely report back to the website that installed it to tell what site the computer with the cookie is visiting).

There's no such thing as a "tracking cookie" Cookies can be used for tracking purposes, but the only difference there is how the cookie is used by that website. You have no rational reason to say they aren't going away either. Microsoft recently created a "Do not track" header that every other browser and web server has added support for, despite it's not being part of the official HTTP/1.1 specification. I think this effort is misguided, but it shows that there is far more concern about cookies being used to track people's browsing habits than you know of. As do the various legislative solutions to curb tracking that are constantly being proposed. Just because something is legal doesn't make it ethical.

Most people, myself included, don't particularly care for tracking cookies but they are there and I know that they are doing so I adjust my web browsing accordingly (I seldom visit sites that I might not want to get ads from.......if I do then I block cookies while I'm on the site (that is not 100% effective but it helps).

What do you mean you are blocking cookies? Doesn't this one statement contradict everything you say towards the effect of "get over it and deal with tracking cookies"

Everyone here has tacking cookies on their computer........that's where your ads on Marketplace are coming from. Not from Linden Lab. And, basically, that's all I wanted to say.......you are your own worse enemy if you are receiving objectionable ads on Marketplace (or most other websites).

Wrong, on so many fronts - not least of which is that you have no idea what's on my computer (or just about anyone else's either). Furthermore I would suggest you google up on things like ad networks and google's ad-sense. You're correct to say the exact choice of ads being served up to any specific user is not being made by Linden Lab, but to say they are coming from tracking cookies on my computer? You are completely wrong! Regardless of the method being used, it's clearly not accurate or precise - all of the examples of the mis-targeted ads in this thread alone demonstrates that.

Now the discussion has turned to Linden Lab being in poor financial shape.

I'm not going to play this game with you. I don't know who brought this off-the-subject topic up first in this thread, but whoever did is a troll, and I usually don't feed trolls. I'm making an exception with this long-winded post because you have spread too much misinformation in this thread for me to just let it go. You have also repeatedly said things to the effect that we will be tracked, that no method can stop it, and so resistance is futile. No amount of bars or locks will keep a determined burglar out of a house - so by your logic, does that not mean we should all stop using locks on our doors? Keeping that thought in mind, here is some advice a little more practical than your "the sky is falling, get over it" approach, to avoid both tracking and to make your browsing experience more secure: Some steps to avoid being tracked on the internet:

 

  1. Turn off third party cookies.
  2. Use a script-blocker
  3. Use an ad-blocker.
  4. Clear your browser cache OFTEN. This includes browsing history, not just cookies.
  5. Do not have your browser remember your passwords.
  6. Disable java. Uninstall it if you have no need for it.
  7. Go here to review your flash settings. For tracking, make sure you go to the "Global Storage Settings panel" and check OFF "Allow third-party Flash content to store data on your computer"
  8. Disable webgl (unless you absolutely need it for a specific reason). My script blocker does this, and it can also be set in firefox with the "webgl.disabled" setting.

 

Finally Peggy, you took a comment I made about people saying adblockers are cheating and you twisted it around to make it sound like I ripped on an entire industry. (If you read what I wrote closely, you'll see I did not rip on the entire industry - but I feel that I certainly could, as I believe that a "profession" that uses, without any compunction, psychological methods to convince people to buy things they don't need and that will never provide them with any lasting happiness, is certainly ethically challenged to say the least!) You then managed to turned it around in your mind to also be an insult that was made against you personally. I don't really care about you taking your cheap shots against me - however, in another post, you assigned blame to Dartagan for what I said, and for that I believe you owe HIM an apology!

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After reading all these replies, all I can say is...

 

Actually, my complaint was that they break the site on some browsers, and their placement is terrible. It looks like something a hacker coded to infect computers, not a website done by professionals.

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Gadget Portal wrote:

After reading all these replies, all I can say is...

 

Actually, my complaint was that they break the site on some browsers, and their placement is terrible. It looks like something a hacker coded to infect computers, not a website done by professionals.

Errr....so you did. :manembarrassed:

I've also wondered if the various team(s) responsible for the web sites were given a very short deadline to get ads running, and they're tweaking it when/where they can.

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