Using Brands or names that are TM for attention to an ad

Izzabelha · January 22, 2013

I thought I saw a thread awhile back about people realizing it's against the TOS and illegal in the real world using a trademarked brand to promote your visibility here in sl to pull people in to view MP listings. I would think the same went for the forum use as if it's not against TOS it is certainly against the rl law to make use of a TM name or brand. I wonder how certain people get away with breaking the law while others have their stuff pulled for what seems a more "personal" reason. I work in rl building brands and it is illegal to use the name of a comapny for any reason unless you get permission from the holder of that TM. I am just curious as to how it works here now since when i was in sl before. I can use a fashion designers name and even use capitalization to push your mind of a similar way the logo works? Nope can't.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Intellectual_Property

Edited for the link

Melita Magic · January 22, 2013

What is your question?

Dillon Levenque · January 22, 2013

LOL, Melita. I'm glad you asked; I just thought I didn't understand something because I couldn't figure out the question either.

Drake1 Nightfire · January 22, 2013

Celestiall Nightfire · January 22, 2013

Izzabelha wrote:

I work in rl building brands and it is illegal to use the name of a comapny for any reason unless you get permission from the holder of that TM.

Hmm, maybe you should learn a little bit more about your real life work.

Because, it's not illegal so use the name or brand of a company in RL, if done properly. Also, no need to get permission. As long as the reference is not deminishing the company or brand, and a disclaimer or credit is used, people in RL can use names and brands. Yes, even in their own ads. It's done in RL all the time!

Now, SL is not RL. So, for any SL ad placement, Linden Lab TOS and rules must be followed. Are there people breaking those LL rules? Sure.

Izzabelha · January 22, 2013

It wasn't a question.

Izzabelha · January 22, 2013

Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

Izzabelha wrote:

I work in rl building brands and it is illegal to use the name of a comapny for any reason unless you get permission from the holder of that TM.

Hmm, maybe you should learn a little bit more about your real life work.

Because, it's

not

illegal so use the name or brand of a company in RL, if done properly. Also, no need to get permission.

As long as the reference is not deminishing the company or brand, and a disclaimer or credit is used, people in RL

can

use names and brands. Yes, even in their own ads. It's done in RL all the time!

Now, SL is not RL. So, for any SL ad placement, Linden Lab TOS and rules must be followed. Are there people breaking those LL rules? Sure.

Hmm, maybe you have no idea of my rl work, Branding and Identity can cover a lot of jobs, what is my actual job title? Right. Branding in the real world can't be used in a virtual world without license or permission. Wow, thanks for the heads up that sl is not rl. See the bolded quote? No it's not true. Sorry. Done properly is to use the name or brand without consent? You need to dig a bit firther before you tell someone about a profession i doubt you are in. My whole point was that so many people have no clue how to use a TM name. Some of you were even involved in a thread about a TM name and jumped all over the OP of how using a TM was wrong lol.

Funny how you certain few posters just assume and shoot off your text. Most of you have snotty ignorant replies to people as you did here. If you read it it was not a question. Not replying to any more posts. Thank you

Celestiall Nightfire · January 22, 2013

Izzabelha wrote:

Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

Izzabelha wrote:

I work in rl building brands and it is illegal to use the name of a comapny for any reason unless you get permission from the holder of that TM.

Hmm, maybe you should learn a little bit more about your real life work.

Because, it's

not

illegal so use the name or brand of a company in RL, if done properly. Also, no need to get permission.

As long as the reference is not deminishing the company or brand, and a disclaimer or credit is used, people in RL

can

use names and brands. Yes, even in their own ads. It's done in RL all the time!

Now, SL is not RL. So, for any SL ad placement, Linden Lab TOS and rules must be followed. Are there people breaking those LL rules? Sure.

Hmm, maybe you have no idea of my rl work, Branding and Identity can cover a lot of jobs, what is my actual job title? Right. Branding in the real world can't be used in a virtual world without license or permission. Wow, thanks for the heads up that sl is not rl. See the bolded quote? No it's not true. Sorry. Done properly is to use the name or brand without consent? You need to dig a bit firther before you tell someone about a profession i doubt you are in. My whole point was that so many people have no clue how to use a TM name. Some of you were even involved in a thread about a TM name and jumped all over the OP of how using a TM was wrong lol.

Funny how you certain few posters just assume and shoot off your text. Most of you have snotty ignorant replies to people as you did here. If you read it it was not a question.

Not replying to any more posts. Thank you

You made a false statement. I corrected you. Then you get snarky. LOL

So, you've now shown that you really are ignorant of RL law regarding trademark. Sheesh

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/trademark

http://www.bpmlegal.com/tmdodont.html

http://minnesotaattorney.com/online-retailer-may-use-manufacturers-trademarked-brand-without-infringement/

http://www.blogworld.com/2011/06/10/can-i-use-someone%E2%80%99s-name-and-logo-yes-sometimes/

"...If the use of the trademark is gratuitous and used for commercial purposes, then that use may result in an unfriendly letter from the trademark owner’s law firm. If the use is non-misleading and for critical or news reporting purposes, then your use is permissible no matter how much it annoys the trademark owner."

I could post plenty more links from legal sources, but it seems that you're not really interested in the legal aspects, but just wanted to rant. Which is Cool. I just wanted to correct your misinformed commentary. Cheers! : )

Dillon Levenque · January 22, 2013

Well you'll have to forgive me (and Melita) for 'assuming' it was a question, given that it was well sprinkled with question marks. In fact I could not figure out what you were either asking or saying. From your further comments it appears that you were complaining about or casting aspersions upon SL people using RL brand names. Is that correct? Oh, wait, you're not replying. I'll just assume again and go on.

You're right in saying that practice is discouraged. The link you posted makes that clear; LL even goes to the point of asking people to 'please' not use real brand names. The practice is not prohibited by LL*. There is a section in that link directed to RL companies and providing contact information should they wish to take action against someone in SL making use of their trademark. It is not a TOS issue. It is an RL issue and LL indicates they will follow RL laws to the letter (as well they should) if there are problems.

Your post would have been a great deal easier to understand if you had stated your case more directly. There are rules against calling out specific avatars and accusing them of wrongdoing, but it seems to me you could have been considerably more direct in what you were trying to say ('assuming', of course, that I even now understand what that was).

*Or if it is, that prohibition is not stated in the article to which you linked.

ETA footnote

Innula Zenovka · January 22, 2013

If you think you have come across an example of someone misusing a company's trade mark here, why not send details to the company concerned and let them take what action, if any, they consider appropriate?

Amethyst Jetaime · January 22, 2013

I interpreted your post as wanting a discussion on the matter and I can also see why people thought you were asking a question. Why would you post at all if it wasn't a question or you didn't want a discussion or other's opinions? Just to show you are a big expert? If you don't want to be called on mistakes or errors be sure of what you are talking about before you post. If you don't want replies don't post at all.

Since you did post and we are free to respond, here is my response:

Have to agree that you don't know much about the legal use of brand names or your an example of a little bit of knowledge being dangerous. There have been many court rulings about the use of brand names in free speech. In RL, you can use a brand name in a discussion, a statement of fact, or in a comparison of two products, a review or even in a satire without permission. What you can not do is use a brand name to mislead people or for any type of personal or commercial gain in RL without permission.

You can discuss a SL brand in general here in the forums as long as its not purely negative, compare brands features, use it in a review, even in some cases give recommendations as long as it is germane to the general discussion and in the proper subforum. However you cannot promote a brand or name a brand in a name and shame post. You also cannot post here referring to RL or SL brands for the purpose of getting people to a web site or promoting the brand. You can though post a link to a SL brand in the form of a MP listing or Slurl to a store, in answer to a question such as "Where can I buy this <specific item>?" , although some new or over zealous moderators have been known to remove it.

From the Community Guidelines:

Spamming, Solicitation and Advertising: Spamming is not allowed. This includes aggressive self-promotion. No advertising or promotion of specific Second Life merchants, Marketplace listings, products, or services, unless the forum area is specifically for the buying or selling of Second Life products or services, for example, a “for sale” or “wanted” forum. Do not reference other websites offering any product or service.

Note: It is OK to have a signature line with a link to your Second Life profile or information about your Second Life business.

2.9k · January 22, 2013

Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

, it's

not

illegal so use the name or brand of a company in RL, if done properly. Also, no need to get permission. As long as the reference is not deminishing the company or brand, and a disclaimer or credit is used, people in RL

can

use names and brands. Yes, even in their own ads.

^^ that ^^

Izzabelha · January 22, 2013

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

I interpreted your post as wanting a discussion on the matter and I can also see why people thought you were asking a question. Why would you post at all if it wasn't a question or you didn't want a discussion or other's opinions? Just to show you are a big expert? If you don't want to be called on mistakes or errors be sure of what you are talking about before you post. If you don't want replies don't post at all.

Since you did post and we are free to respond, here is my response:

Have to agree that you don't know much about the legal use of brand names or your an example of a little bit of knowledge being dangerous

. There have been many court rulings about the use of brand names in free speech. In RL, you can use a brand name in a discussion, a statement of fact, or in a comparison of two products, a review or even in a satire without permission.

What you can not do is use a brand name to mislead people or for any type of personal or commercial gain in RL without permission

.

You can discuss a SL brand in general here in the forums as long as its not purely negative, compare brands features, use it in a review, even in some cases give recommendations as long as it is germane to the general discussion and in the proper subforum. However you cannot promote a brand or name a brand in a name and shame post.

You also cannot post here referring to RL or SL brands for the purpose of getting people to a web site or promoting the brand

.

You can though post a link to a SL brand in the form of a MP listing or Slurl to a store, in answer to a question such as "Where can I buy this <specific item>?" , although some new or over zealous moderators have been known to remove it.

From the Community Guidelines:

Spamming, Solicitation and Advertising
: Spamming is not allowed. This includes aggressive self-promotion. No advertising or promotion of specific Second Life merchants, Marketplace listings, products, or services, unless the forum area is specifically for the buying or selling of Second Life products or services, for example, a “for sale” or “wanted” forum. Do not reference other websites offering any product or service.

Note: It is OK to have a signature line with a link to your Second Life profile or information about your Second Life business.

I wasn't going to reply after the person who thought they worked next to me said I need to understand my job better, wasn't looking to argue with ignorance so I was stopping there. It has nothing to do with another's opinion and I am not a big expert as you say, i do know my job however. Should I assume I know the details of your job if you gave a broad spectrum of anything that falls under the umbrella, no that would be wrong. I do know the law and the legal limitations of TM and Copyright as i spend my day creating brands and doing all the necessary steps protecting them. I was not going to play word knowledge war with a rude &*^%.

My post was not a question and I can see how it came across that way. I can't use names or point at the people doing this, I am just making a statement because i find people that ignore RL laws because they are in SL should not have entitled use to someone's TM or Copyright, that's wrong. This was not about a discussion of an SL brand, it was about how someone decided to make their own laws using a TM name at their discretion not the company. You can't just use a TM in an ad how you wish you need permission and or to purchase the license for how many times you will use it or a one time use. I am not going to get in a heated snarky BS arguement with the people that replied, constructive critism or pointing out error is ONE thing but a rude reply is another.

You obviously know the law and apparently you have educated yourself in it, My post could have been a discussion if people knew how to post without snark as you did. BTW you are entitled to agree with Ms. Nightfire of my knowledge or lack there of, I have nothing to prove to anyone. I was making a point.

Innula, Dillon and Melita I appreciate your replies.

2.9k · January 22, 2013

if your question is: can we use other people's trademarks/ip in SL then the answer is:

a) yes. if you have their permission

b) yes. until the trademark/ip holder files a takedown notice with linden. on which linden will remove it

the rules for SL governed by the safe harbor provisions of DMCA. linden apply these provisions to the letter of the law

Isoldel · January 22, 2013

For those of you who are reading these comments for this thread, you might want to know that this is all because of this following thread: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Wanted/CALLING-ALL-RESIDENTS-THAT-WANT-TO-MODEL-AN-AMAZING-CONTEST-GRID/td-p/1821923

Izzabelha · January 22, 2013

Correct but it wasn't a question. Again my post was apparently very unclear as to the type of post it was. I typed without going back to re read so I see how it came off as a question.

People can't change rl laws because it's sl. I guess in some minds if they don't get caught it's fine to do.

So when you don't get permission it's ok to do and I don't know my job I am told? LOL Most people that post regurlary in this forum have morales and aren't law breakers as you can see by their posts/replies, that was my point. My fault for not being more precise in my post.

Melita Magic · January 22, 2013

Thank you to those who understood why I asked.

To the OP, I looked at the other link someone posted also. I can't comment because I do not know the facts of the case.

From what I can tell you are objecting to someone using a real life company's name in an SL ad. I'm not sure of hte particular laws or TOS on that, and if I tried to say I did, I'm sure I'd be shot down for it. Lol (Or at least, there used to be some 'IP experts' who hung out and would strongly 'correct' anyone on the subject.) So I can't really add to a discussion on that, if that's what you wanted.

I didn't understand this sentence, which also led to my conclusion there must be a question in there somewhere. I had assumed you wanted our input or thoughts or some answers on...something.

Izzabelha wrote:

I can use a fashion designers name and even use capitalization to push your mind of a similar way the logo works?

Izzabelha · January 22, 2013

That's a good one PI, well done!! I suppose it's not allowed to post what i did because i didn't name the person as I shouldn't have in my post? I wonder what brought you to this post?

Whistle blows to leave work and go home in 12 minutes so thanks to all who replied, even the snarky ones LOL

Celestiall Nightfire · January 22, 2013

Izzabelha wrote:

I wasn't going to reply after the person who thought they worked next to me said I need to understand my job better, wasn't looking to argue with ignorance so I was stopping there. It has nothing to do with another's opinion and I am not a big expert as you say, i do know my job however. Should I assume I know the details of your job if you gave a broad spectrum of anything that falls under the umbrella, no that would be wrong. I do know the law and the legal limitations of TM and Copyright as i spend my day creating brands and doing all the necessary steps protecting them. I was not going to play word knowledge war with a rude &*^%.

Oh, for pete sakes. You made a wrong statement in your OP, and tied it to a reference about your RL job. So, you clearly do need to learn more about your RL job, if you think this is true:

Izzabelha wrote:

I work in rl building brands and it is illegal to use the name of a comapny for any reason unless you get permission from the holder of that TM.

You wrote that. It's wrong, but you don't want to admit it.

You don't like the fact that I pointed out your misinformation. Well, I don't like someone coming here to the forums and giving false information. That's what you did.

Here's more links to company names and brands being used, and people aren't even saying nice things about the brands!. (see below) Oh, and I wonder....do you think "Coke" gave Pepsi permission to use their name and brand in the "Pepsi Challenge" ads?! lol

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/02/food-products-with-different-brand-names_n_1250304.html

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2012/10/store-brand-vs-name-brand-taste-off/index.htm

Here's a Best Buy ad, and they list and "name" their competitors in their Best Buy ad!

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Payment-Pricing/Best-Buy-Price-Match-Guarantee/pcmcat204400050011.c?id=pcmcat204400050011

"For the above promotions, the Designated Major Online Retailers are: Amazon.com, Apple.com, Bhphotovideo.com, Buy.com, CircuitCity.com, CompUSA.com, Crutchfield.com, Dell.com, hhgregg.com, HP.com, HomeDepot.com, Lowes.com, Newegg.com, OfficeDepot.com, OfficeMax.com, Sears.com, Staples.com, Target.com, TigerDirect.com, and Walmart.com."

So, Best Buy is using the trademarked names of competitors to promote thier own Best Buy business.

Again, I could go on and on here. Tons of examples of companies doing exactly what you say they can't do!

So, to recap:

This is wrong: " illegal to use the name of a comapny for any reason unless you get permission from the holder of that TM."

But, you didn't stop with just one wrong statement, you went and made another one based upon your lack of understanding. Here's the second one:

Izzabelha wrote:

You can't just use a TM in an ad how you wish

you need permission and or to purchase the license

for how many times you will use it or a one time use.

Uh, no, that's wrong. You do not need permission or to purchase a license. You're confusing two different things. Using a brand or company name, even in one's own ads (and I posted links to examples above) does not require permission or licensing.

What I think you're getting mixed up on is where people want to sell a brand name item, and in that instance, they need to purchase a license. For example, if someone wants to sell "official" NFL or Disney Little Mermaid T-shirts and posters. The seller would need to purchase a license from those respective companies to be able to advertise official NFL or Disney merchandise.. (if they want to be legal) But, just to use the name and/or logo, or brand, even to promote one's own products, does not require permission or licensing. If it did, we would not see companies using other brands and names to promote themselves!

2.9k · January 22, 2013

is all good (:

+

was just that we kinda got sidetracked on the do you need prior permission beforehand. the answer to that is no. not according to the letter of the law as it stands

Drake1 Nightfire · January 22, 2013

Izzabelha wrote:

That's a good one PI, well done!! I suppose it's not allowed to post what i did because i didn't name the person as I shouldn't have in my post? I wonder what brought you to this post?

Whistle blows to leave work and go home in 12 minutes so thanks to all who replied, even the snarky ones LOL

Shouldn't you be WORKING while at work, not spending your time on the forums? I wonder what your boss would say.

Izzabelha · January 22, 2013

No don't give yourself that much credit, I could care less what you thought you pointed out, as stated to another poster I didn't post this to get into the word war with a person like yourself. Your opinion means nothing. I do not need to know more about my job and no it's not up to you if I tie anything to my rl period. You can have all the opinions you want, they are your opinions, from your links you have no clue to what i was referring to and BTW the huffingpost? Really. Your post reflects the same way you post to others.

Izzabelha · January 22, 2013

I am the only person that logs on to the forum from work so what would my boss think? Can you even imagine? LOL Who is my boss? I bet after he or she read your posts and profile he or she would say "You actually pass your time on this site with this kind of T$#%^? Hey shouldn't you be standing in a line somewhere or at the mailbox, isn't that like working for you? See you people think you can give it out so take it politely, you know, dish it out, so you can take it, right?

I posted to the few that I felt I wanted to. Enjoy the thread as I am not wasting anymore time with the same Regular forum nasty posters. Cheers!

Celestiall Nightfire · January 23, 2013

Izzabelha wrote:

I do not need to know more about my job ....

Oh, my.

Izzabelha wrote:

.... and no it's not up to you if I tie anything to my rl period.

Huh? No one said it was "up to me". It's a fact. You did tie your misinformed statement to your RL job.

Izzabelha wrote:

You can have all the opinions you want, they are your opinions, from your links you have no clue to what i was referring to and BTW the huffingpost? Really

Yup. I can have all the opinions I want. What I don't get is why you wouldn't use the opinions of others, to examine what you think you know, and learn something

Sure, the Huffington Post.

Did you even look at the link? I used it as an example of companies being "named". Of trademarks and company logos being shown. The fact that's its the Huffington Post makes my example even better, as it show the ubiquitous nature of my example.

Izzabelha wrote:

Your post reflects the same way you post to others.

The way I post to others, is to give useful and factual, information. Because, there are people that come to these forum to learn. It's for those people, that I post.

Jennifer Boyle · January 23, 2013

16 wrote:

...the rules for SL governed by the safe harbor provisions of DMCA. linden apply these provisions to the letter of the law...

For the record, the DMCA is only concerned with copyright infringement, not trademark infringement, and its procedures and safe harbor provision are only applicable to copyright infringement.

Using Brands or names that are TM for attention to an ad

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