Link rules changed?

[BB Seesaw]

The link rules on the sl wiki still say LINKABLE = D < 54 AND N ≤ 256 where D = diameter of the smallest bounding sphere of the collection of prim centers and N = number of prims in the collection.  If I understand it right, that would surely mean that the rules  must have changed now we have a maximum prim size of 64m, but I can't find an update. Anyway, after some tests it seems they have, and if there is a distance/size limit it's so great that I can't actually reach it!

I noticed when making an off sim lighthouse on my isolated homestead sim that I could get the on-sim root to link much further than 54m from the lighthouse object, and eventually managed just under 400m on a pair of test prims.

To replicate, set draw distance as high as you can, disable 'Limit select distance' and disable cam constraints from the Advanced menu.

Rez a prim and make it 10 m cube so it's visible at long distances. Duplicate it.

If you put one prim at 0,0 and  the other at 255.99, 255.99 it's fairly easy to select them both and you get the full sim diagonal as the separation. You can get greater distances by separating the prims vertically but it's harder selecting them because of the cam angles you need.

Select both and link them.

I managed to get more by setting them 400m apart on the z axis but gave up trying bigger separations because selection got tricky.

Putting the root at the sim edge and rotating it the child could be set 400m outside the sim.

Testing again in a build enabled mainland sim (Ultsch) the prims still linked at the same separation. Positioning the the root prim near the edge of Ultsch and rotating the set, the child could be placed two sims away, in Coviello, with the root still in Ultsch, or the other way round. I also tested in Aditi with similar results.

So is it a new link rule, or is it a bug, and if so should it be fixed? There will be tears later if a fix is needed after content is created using this.

The pic shows the lighthouse 231m off the sim with the root in the sim corner as red post.

 

[mikka Luik]

Just tested on a Magnum HS and the more or less 54m rule still seems to hold - two 10m cubes linked vertically

[BB Seesaw]

Update in response to mikka's test - I replicated in Magnum RC Sandbox 1. Two 10m cubes linked at 255m separation.

[Knowl Paine]

I have been able to link Builds that a far larger, than in the past. I wasn't sure if the link size limit had changed, I was just happy to be able to link.

 

Thanks for posting.

[Nalates Urriah]

Using Second Life 3.4.0 (264911) Sep 19 2012 11:15:02 (Second Life Release) on server version Second Life Server 12.09.07.264510...

I can link a 0.5m and a 10m cube more than 150m apart. That seems to break the rule.

While one could build things and pivot them into regions and parcels they do now have rez rights in, the owners have the ability to return encroching objects. Whether that will work across multiple regions is an interstng question.

I added this as https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-236

[Maestro Linden]

I can confirm this bug on 12.09.07.264510.  I would strongly recommend not making linksets which have prim centers >54m apart; such objects will probably break when we fix this bug.

[Nalates Urriah]

I added it as https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-236

[Knowl Paine]

:smileysad:

[Kool Mekanic]

Does it really need to be called a bug and fixed ?

As Nalates said, encroching objects can be returned so where is the risk ?

I know some people are already genuily using this "new" rule for big builds.

[mikka Luik]

Must admit, if the encroaching return is up and running this is a bug I can live with beats having the last 256m install I had having to run synch across 8 linksets =^^=

[BB Seesaw]

Agrees with Kool. Not sure from Maestro's reply if this was already noted as a bug, but if not I wish I hadn't mentioned it:smileysad:

[Qie Niangao]

Well, but the resulting linksets aren't very stable. At least when I try with the current LL viewer, if I try to adjust the position of one of the linked prims even further away, it snaps back -- although it snaps back to where it was, not back to the "rule" distance. Didn't try anything with scripts, but it would be pretty important that they work consistently with the manual linking behavior, or at least not break manually linked objects.

I'm also thinking that there may be some shortcuts in physics that rely on a particular linkset size. I didn't play around with collisions or anything, but it would be something I'd want to check, if the limit changed.

[BB Seesaw]

Yes, noticed that too. If I link prims inside the rule distance I can edit their position individually but not beyond the rule limits. If I link them outside the rule distance, I can move them in edit linked but they snap back.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I have noticed the snap back too when the distance is >54.  But playing around with it I just unlinked the one prim, moved it and then linked it back.. 

I hope they don't fix this "Bug'".  Its great being able to link large prims together  that you couldn't link before.  Not sure why it has to be limited again, I see no reason for it and have worked on open grids that allow it to no ill effect.  If they do have to fix it though at least give us 64m instead of 54.

[Knowl Paine]

[Syrah Xue]

A similar problem has ocurred on my parcel,  it has become impossible to edit linked items they simply spring back to their previous state after adjustment. Making it impossible to add the finishing touches to a large build.

 

Attempting to unlink won't work either as it generates an error message - unable to unlink as you don't have build permissions on all parcels. The strange thing is - there is only one parcel and i own it ?

 

if i rez the build in a public sandbox it will unlink - but then one has to re-do 1000+ prims and rez again too !

 

 

 

 

[GEE McAuley]

The logic of the distance limits was explained to me today.  Also what was stated was that some of the older computers cannot go above 64 for a viewing distance.  Well it is time to move on with those old clunkers.

Also what was mentioned was that there were issues with builds spilling over to your neighbors sim.  What I gather that was fixed with the region settings.  
Parcel encroachment, 
To see if it's enabled or disabled use "get allow_return_encroaching_object"
To set on /off use "set allow_return_encroaching_object true/false"
"Set allow_return_encroaching_estate_object true/false"
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Parcel_encroachment 

So as you can see the Sim encroachment issue is an old issue and fixed.

I was about to state that I can live with the extra step of unlinking a prim for a repositioning in a linked set and leave the bug as a blessing for us builders.  My tune changed after talking to some wise and seasoned people on the subject.
So now I ask, can we get the issue fixed ASAP and then look into making the link distance further with the proper changes?  Why I ask for ASAP, this way I can see what breaks in my build before it is a customer relations disaster.  Also for those builders/merchants that did not even notice the bug won't get a surprise when things fall apart at the seams.

Remember if it wasn't for us builders, SL would be flat lands with dust and tumbleweeds blowing around. 
Cue Theme from: The good the bad and the ugly.

 

[Qie Niangao]

Yeah, I don't think the linkability limit is very directly related to the increase in prim size. As Andrew is quoted on the wiki:

Andrew Linden: 54 was the minimum sphere that still contained all of the legacy linkable content.

That "minimum" makes me think that the larger the linkset, the worse its potential impact on performance. When they simplified the linkability rule to 54m for everything (which was, for those who remember, a vast improvement over the earlier madness), it seems that they tried to keep it just as small as possible without breaking content. Now, with Pathfinding exercising Havok, it may be even more important to constrain the space in which there can be an object with which to collide.

The 64m prims, combined with the current 54m link limit, means that the potential collision envelope of an object extends well beyond a 118m sphere, even without legacy megaprims. To me, Havok calculations are as close to magic as makes no difference, so maybe there's nothing to fear by increasing that limit, but I'd sure want that tested thoroughly before inviting content to depend on it.

[Aslan Bloodrose]

That is really freaking HANDY. 

I am a sim builder who, only after packaging a sim build realized there was something weird about the linkset distance, and now, I have to some how magically be able to measure the distance between prims so to make sure I don't overstep the linkset distance, all because you FAILED to notify all people building on the grid this can happen.  And how am I even supposed to be able to measure the damn distance, you just wasted 4 weeks of my freakin time and a months teirs, not to mention the 2 people I have waiting for sim bulds that I can't do till this is fixed.  Thanks a freakin lot.

[kiramanell]

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Syrah Xue wrote:

A similar problem has ocurred on my parcel,  it has become impossible to edit linked items they simply spring back to their previous state after adjustment. Making it impossible to add the finishing touches to a large build.

 

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Actually, I can confirm this part: I rezzed a home the other day, and whatever part I tried to edit/move, it kept snapping back to its previous position (consistently, over days). Very weird. Only way around it was to unlink each item which needed moving first, then move it, and then link it back.

This was a somewhat older home, btw (re-rezzed from inventory). An adjacent home next to it wasn't afflicted at all.

Also, I noticed a similar effect on trying to change prim color, recently: color has a tendency to persist, and keeps reverting to previous color (unless you try it several times).

One gets the impression these things are all related somehow.

[kiramanell]

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P4NDOR4 Quintessa wrote:

That is really freaking HANDY. 

I am a sim builder who, only after packaging a sim build realized there was something weird about the linkset distance, and now, I have to some how magically be able to measure the distance between prims so to make sure I don't overstep the linkset distance, all because you FAILED to notify all people building on the grid this can happen.  And how am I even supposed to be able to measure the damn distance, you just wasted 4 weeks of my freakin time and a months teirs, not to mention the 2 people I have waiting for sim bulds that I can't do till this is fixed.  Thanks a freakin lot.

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I say you are being a bit unreasonable here: as an experienced builder you relied on a behavior you knew was too good to be true; and instead of asking for confirmation, like the topic starter was wise enough to do, you just hoped 'they' wouldn't notice. Well, they did.