Surveillance stuff? What is all this about?

[Vladamir Bearsfoot]

Just recently heard that you can record people's conversations in SL to see if there are people yapping about you? Is this an invasion of privacy? Also that someone can give you a gift that does pretty much the same thing as record where you have been, what you said and such. How does one clear this stuff if they are or even if they are not a victim? How can you know what is what on this? Does it affect anything outside of SL as well?

Vladamir

[jwenting]

see the TOS. It's a TOS violation to REMOTELY monitor local chat (iow you must be on the scene and within chat range to be allowed to log local chat), or to monitor any OTHER AGENT's instant messages (meaning you can log your own IMs with someone, but not that other person's IMs with anyone except you yourself).

And that's for personal use only. You're not allowed to publish any of that outside of SL, and IMs not even inside SL, without prior consent of all involved in the conversation.
And no, a notecard inside that no-mod object with a text "by attaching this attachment you consent to your chat being logged and transmitted to an offworld server" doesn't count.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

^^This^^

With one addition.  If you disclose what you are doing to the person you monitor and they give their consent to it then it is perfrectly ok.  Now i know you will ask why would anyone do this?  Good question and I can't imagine a good reason why I personally would  However there are people that roleplay slaves and submissives in SL that give their consent to their 'master' monitoring and controlling their every word and move.

[Vladamir Bearsfoot]

I have heard of people popping on their profiles that IM's are logged.  I have heard about the slave stuff for roleplaying which is consensual and there usually is a blurb when you enter one of those areas stating what all is going on if you don't want to do please leave.

My friend is worried that someone has been monitoring her in such a way that she is or was not aware of at the time but she as of late believes that someone is.

I saw this description of a product on the MP.

"Worried about someone talking negatively about you when you are offline,have any in world enemies spreading rumors and gossiping about you or a loved one, well worry no more! Set your mind at ease.The XXXXXXXXXXXXX Surveillance Orb allows the owner to record all local chat whether you are online or offline, away from home or at home. Simply drop the orb on your land and "click"it to turn on or reset. This device has a 20' range and is copyable so you can put as many of these devices down leaving you with the peace of mind. Say goodbye to backstabbers and backbiters..."

Granted this only has a 20 meter range like when you are inworld. But does it stop there I mean for other things? Is there a way for LL to make sure that other such devices are not tracking a person's movements to where they have been, who they have talked to, what they have said? 

Say you are given a gift from a friend like a ring, or belt, any article really without any mention of anything contained in it like tracking stuff or such, that would be against TOS if I understand correctly from what is mentioned. If this is the case, how can someone find out if such article is as such or just an ordinary article, contact LL?

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

I am not a tech genius or anything, but if your friend is wearing the item, can't he/she right click to edit and look in Contents to see if any scripts are inside it?

Hopefully someone more knowledgable will come along and have better advice.

[Ailya Babii]

Hi Vladamir,

I had the same worries/questions when i found out that people can spy on you, just by sending you a "gift" with hidden spy tools in there! It even triggered me to distrust everyone who would give me a gift, even my friends which i knew for a long time. And then that made me feel guilty for doubting them.

The only real solution i could come up with (and other people told me), was to delete any gift right after thankfully receiving it. From inventory ánd trash bin. I was told that i should certainly not rez anything i don't trust, as that was supposed to activate the hidden spy stuff. I don't know if this is actually true, or, if "it" activates as soon as you accept it in your inventory. But i could just not find it in my heart to reject a gift from someone right in their face. Maybe hypocrite, but i want to protect myself, without having to offend people who don't mean bad. And i have no problem deleting random gifts from people i've just met (and which they probably give to anyone they just meet). My experience is that those "gifts" just stay useless in your inventory anyway, causing inventory clutter (and i have enough of that already, just from my own clutter)!

To avoid getting gifts from real friends, i told everyone that i don't like to get presents (which is actually true, i hate having to act surprised and pleased, while actually i can't stand looking at the darn thing!), just to avoid getting anything that i then had to delete. That worked out quite well for a while, but as my life developped, was not really satisfactory anymore. I want to be able to accept a gift from a real friend, without having to wonder about their ulterior motives. What are real friends otherwise for? But on the other hand, when meeting néw friends, i would like to be able to know upfront if the person is capable of such - not really friend-worthy - things. So with the people i consider friends, i decided to just not worry about it and trust my own instincts and the reasons why i considered them to be friends in the first place. I was never betrayed by anyone who i consider a friend in the past, so why get paranoide now?! And with people i've just met, i inspect their gifts (sorry people!!) for hidden scripts.

For anything to "do" something in SL, it needs one or more scripts. You can only put a script in an object or attachment (and not in a skin or shape for example). So what i do is, i go in edit mode (just right-click on any object around you and choose "Edit" from the pie) and rez a copy of the item on the ground (when you open the edit box befóre you rez the object, then it is automatically selected, which is really handy when the object is very small or transparent for example), ór i wear the item if it's not copyable and then select it (by just clicking on it, if the edit box is open already). Then check under the "Contents" tab if there is anything hidden in it.

Some objects contain out of more than one prim though. If there are only a few, then you can select them one by one (you need to tick the box "edit linked parts" first) to inspect the contents of each linked prim. But if an object contains out of many prims (some flowers or jewelry for example can have hundreds of prims), then it's almost impossible to select each prim one by one. Then what i do is, i select the entire object/attachment and check under "Tools" on the menubar on top (i use Phoenix viewer, not sure how it looks with other viewers). I don't have SL open now, so i cannot check which options there are, but i'm sure there are some options with the scripts (reset scripts in object for example, which shows you every script in the object during the reset). I'm not sure if there is also an option to inspect the scripts there, but i do think you can inspect the entire object by right-clicking it to open the pie, then select "More" and "Inspect".

Since my instincts only go so far - as i can't look people in the eyes - i don't feel at all guilty to inspect people's gifts. And i'm also not worried anymore to rez the gift and therewith maybe activate some spy stuff. I'm confident i can find any hidden scripts or anything dodgy, and ones i would know someone has send me such a thing, their spying doesn't hold any power anymore, as it has then already revealed them as a very insecure and pathetic loser. So now i consider those random gifts as true presents, as they give me a great opportunity to find out if someone has bad motives, before getting more involved.

And also i realised, that even without me knowing that someone is capable of spying on me, they still wouldn't hold any power over me, since they would not be able to do anything with the information they gathered, as that would reveal them as the insecure pathetic loser which they are. What ever they find out about me, can never be worse than that!

[Ailya Babii]

Or in short: If you don't betray / cheat on / lie to people yourself, then why worry about them spying on you?!

[Nova Convair]

Checking objects: In Firestorm I right click and choose "script count" other TPV's probably have similar functions, Linden viewers don't - you have to check every single prim.

Get used to IM for private talking.

On other people's land, they can do what they want but not publish anything, that is against TOS.

On own land restrict chat and voice to your land and prevent object entry and rez. And don't rez gift-spy's of course

At least - if I talk about someone and they don't like it - why would I care? *scratches head* I see absolutely no problems here.

 

[Freya Mokusei]

This is a relatively tired subject. Scripting allows access to many features such as reading local chat, online status, host sim, sim location. Once data is recorded by scripts it can be used in about a million ways, both in-world and out-of-world. There are many more legitimate uses for this information than illegitimate.

Any script can contain these functions, and legality is determined by LL, according to their ToS. SL ToS is only enforcable in-world, does not affect the contents of any external systems (such as external blogs, websites, databases, forums, etc.). It also doesn't apply to 'public' or avatar data, which amounts essentially to anything that doesn't require 'digging' to obtain. Usernames, avatar (not user) locations, profile contents, some basic account details are all considered public. Local chat is considered public in many circumstances. There is no expectation of privacy for public data.

No tools are provided (or able) to detect these systems in 100% of cases. There is no unified way of removing 'your data' according to any privacy law in the Real World, since any data pulled from SL can be stored anywhere in the world.

Privacy is a subjective concept that SL's never really had. Delusions of it are just as dangerous as a lack of it. SL has obfuscation (by way of pseudonyms, and a centralised connection interface), but the two concepts are not the same.

 ETA~

And this is a redundant argument:-

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If you don't betray / cheat on / lie to people yourself, then why worry about them spying on you?!

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Equivilence is: Only criminals should be concerned about warrant-less wire-tapping, cellphone surveillance, TSA bodyscanners and confiscation of electronics at customs.

Right?

[Perrie Juran]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

 

Privacy is a subjective concept that SL's never really had. Delusions of it are just as dangerous as a lack of it. SL has obfuscation (by way of pseudonyms, and a centralised connection interface), but the two concepts are not the same.

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That is so well said!

People forget that the First Rule of the Internet is that there is no privacy on the Internet.

It applies to Second Life too.

Interestingly enough, the CS states, "Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Life experience."  People can become so "unreasonable" regarding this, thinking that everything they do or say is protected when actually it is not.  They want LL to play Nanny at every perceived little hurt.

 

 

[Vegro Solari]

This is for Ailya Babii, hopefully to help with fears of gifts.  Just having a gift in inventory does not run any of the scripts that could be inside of it (good ones or bad).  Spying scripts can do something only if you wear the gift or you rez it on your land.

(Just keep in mind that if you rez something then delete it, it could have silently created an invisible prim somewhere, that could be the spy device. So just deleting a thing after rez might not be enough.)

To avoid the problem, just rez suspicious gifts at a public sandbox, where they can't do anything to spy on your home.

To defeat the second kind which works by you wearing it, unwear absolutely everything (or reset your avatarto the default), then again wear your normal outfit/avatar which you know is clean.  That way if you were wearing any gifts to try them out, and they tried something fishy like sticking around and spying on you after you unwear it, the reset would have removed them.

Don't worry about inspecting objects for scripts too much, it's a waste of energy because that only shows you if there's "a" script in it. But without reading the code there's no way to tell if it's legitimate or spyware,  or (rare but possible) a combo of both.

[Vladamir Bearsfoot]

All valid points and such, especially that there is no such thing as privacy on the internet or any other forum. So in any event, there is no way for anyone to really know if they are being spied upon? If it is happening say from a gift that is worn taking it off, tossing it in inventory, throwing it in the trash, etc would solve that problem.

Also if it is suspected that it is happening at a certain place(a friends home which you share/visit/what have you) than perhaps you friend may not really be your friend, what would the suggested course of action be other than not going there, getting a new friend, asking for an explanation(which may solve the problem(s) either way?

I am asking obviously to try and give my friend some peace of mind(I had another friend who also believed something similar to all stated here as well, her resolution was dump everything and move and not have contact with said person ever again).

Me, I could care less what people think about me. I am respectable to a T, if someone rubs me the wrong way I simply just bow out and walk away wishing good day if things are not rude between us, if they are I just excuse myself and leave.

[Ailya Babii]

Great idea to rez suspicious gifts at a public sandbox, thanks!

[Perrie Juran]

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Ailya Babii wrote:

Great idea to rez suspicious gifts at a public sandbox, thanks!

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Actually it's not.  Find a private one and get permission to use it.

There are people doing working on projects at Sandboxes and this is suggesting you make them the guinea pigs while you check if a prim has a time bomb in it.

You should at least give them notice so they can be sure to save their builds if you are going to do this.

 

[Ailya Babii]

Hi Perrie,

The topic is about people who might want to spy on you by giving you a "gift", which possibly contains scripts to keep records of where you (the owner of the gift) have been, what you said, etc. Not really anything we need to give other people "bomb-threat" warnings for. :smileywink:

The reason why Vegro suggested to rez it on a sandbox, is to prevent the "gift" from leaving something on your land, after you deleted it and of course, without you realising it. In a public sandbox, everything you rez (knowingly or unknowingly), will be deleted automatically after certain time (4 hours most of time).

Also the spy-script would only have effect on the owner of the gift i guess, so nobody would be in "danger" or a guinea pig, as you suggested. Still, i have to smile when i picture your time-bomb scenario! :smileyhappy:

[Perrie Juran]

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Ailya Babii wrote:

Hi Perrie,

The topic is about people who might want to spy on you by giving you a "gift", which possibly contains scripts to keep records of where you (the owner of the gift) have been, what you said, etc. Not really anything we need to give other people "bomb-threat" warnings for. :smileywink:

The reason why Vegro suggested to rez it on a sandbox, is to prevent the "gift" from leaving something on your land, after you deleted it and of course, without you realising it. In a public sandbox, everything you rez (knowingly or unknowingly), will be deleted automatically after certain time (4 hours most of time).

Also the spy-script would only have effect on the owner of the gift i guess, so nobody would be in "danger" or a guinea pig, as you suggested. Still, i have to smile when i picture your time-bomb scenario! :smileyhappy:

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While you were talking specifically about checking the object for a script, the point is you are still talking about rezzing a suspect object.  For instance, there was a big problem recently with an object that when rezzed spammed everyone in the region, offering everyone copies of itself.  The messages were incessant. 

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Abuse-and-Griefing/ExDepart-Gift-Package-2012-received-an-offer-for-a-GIFT-today/qaq-p/1635295

In this case, the object had a specific name.  But this is not always the case.

 

ETA:  Really, at best I think 'spying' is kind of dumb and at worst really is actually kind of creepy..

[Ailya Babii]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

Really, at best I think 'spying' is kind of dumb and at worst really is actually kind of creepy..

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This, in my opinion, is the best comment so far on this topic! That's kinda what i meant, when i said:

 "And also i realised, that even without me knowing that someone is capable of spying on me, they still wouldn't hold any power over me, since they would not be able to do anything with the information they gathered, as that would reveal them as the insecure pathetic loser which they are. What ever they find out about me, can never be worse than that!

Or in short: If you don't betray / cheat on / lie to people yourself, then why worry about them spying on you?!"

 

But i also see Freya's point on my last remark (although a bit over-expressed, lol same as with the bomb threat):

"Equivilence is: Only criminals should be concerned about warrant-less wire-tapping, cellphone surveillance, TSA bodyscanners and confiscation of electronics at customs."

[Perrie Juran]

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Ailya Babii wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

Really, at best I think 'spying' is kind of dumb and at worst really is actually kind of creepy..

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This, in my opinion, is the best comment so far on this topic! That's kinda what i meant, when i said:

 

"

And also i realised, that even without me knowing that someone is capable of spying on me, they still wouldn't hold any power over me, since they would not be able to do anything with the information they gathered, as that would reveal them as the insecure pathetic loser which they are. What ever they find out about me, can never be worse than that!

Or in short: If you don't betray / cheat on / lie to people yourself, then why worry about them spying on you?!

"

 

But i also see Freya's point on my last remark (although a bit over-expressed, lol same as with the bomb threat):

"

Equivilence is: Only criminals should be concerned about warrant-less wire-tapping, cellphone surveillance, TSA bodyscanners and confiscation of electronics at customs

."

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"Equivilence is: Only criminals should be concerned about warrant-less wire-tapping, cellphone surveillance, TSA bodyscanners ......."

I don't really want to get into a threadjack but do want to respond to this.  My objection to these things is simply this.  I do not believe in the concept of a "Beneficent Dictator."

It was a major principle upon which much of the U.S. Constitution was based.  It was one of the reasons why terms in office had time limits and to stay in office you had to get re-elected.  It was also to protect against demagoguery. 

[serotica]

Not sure if this is even relevant....or in the right thread to be honest, but I keep seeing this weird looking opaque shape that's moving above my avatar....before anyone says anything ....it's not the 'voice' dot.

It's something a little higher and somewhat forward of my position and vision, and is oval in shape and relatively large.

I was wondering if anyone knew what it could be, and if it is something that someone may be using as a a surveillance tool?...... Thanks in advance.

[Aethelwine]

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Vladamir Bearsfoot wrote:

Just recently heard that you can record people's conversations in SL to see if there are people yapping about you? Is this an invasion of privacy? Also that someone can give you a gift that does pretty much the same thing as record where you have been, what you said and such. How does one clear this stuff if they are or even if they are not a victim? How can you know what is what on this? Does it affect anything outside of SL as well?

Vladamir

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Can you select it (r-click edit) to inspect it?

Try taking off attachments one by one to see if it goes away.