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Changes to the jira.. hiding bug reports?

Innula Zenovka

By Innula Zenovka,
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Drongle McMahon

Drongle McMahon

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I have to emphtically agree with you here. Interactive refinement of the reproduction and extensive testing by the originator, all after triage and acceptance, and all at the request of Lindens, have often been involved in jiras I have participated in. Often the refinement depended on non-originator contributions, and often those contributions were in the form of generalisation to further cases and relationsips to other jiras (which they will now not see). Is it possible the changes were designed by someone who is just not aware of the way the jira is constructively used, only of how it is occasionally abused?

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Czari Zenovka

Czari Zenovka

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The jira I have been closely following is 4587 - Mixed listings on the Marketplace.

This is a particularly pesky bug that results in Merchant A having the image of Merchant B's item showing on her product description, or vice versa.  This bug reared its ugly head in April  during the time Direct Delivery was introduced to replace the Magic Box.  After much comparison of issues and discussion on the Merchants Forum,  it appears that DD did not "cause" this bug, but rather this mixed listing issue has existed since the transition from the former Xstreet to the Marketplace with the ensuing integration and changes to product listings. For some strange reason the DD change brought it to the surface.  Initially the bug seemed to only affect certain product item numbers, ie. merchants who went through the Xstreet -> MP migration, but, from following the jira, newer merchants have reported mixed listings in their stores.

At this point the mixed listings default to the MP home page when selected, but initially there were reports of very angry customers, especially those for whom English is not their first language, who purchased an item based on the image and received something totally different.  There were also some outrageous "mixtures", such as very XXX-rated item images for G-rated items.

This bug still exists.  There is no way the merchant can remove the mixed listing from their MP store because these listings do not show up in the merchant's "Edit Listing" screen.

Point of this post:  I was among the first group of merchants who discovered mixed listings and, thus, was able to directly communicate with two specific Lindens. Perhaps due to this, the original mixed listings on my MP store were eventually removed, but 4 different ones popped up and are there to this day. After communicating with the first "wave" of merchants reporting this bug, others that followed were directed to file a jira.  The most recent communication from Commerce Team Linden on this subject was to make sure any issues on our stores were reported via a support ticket.  Since I had not added the new mixed listings in my store to the jira since it was and is an ongoing issue, I followed that instructive and submitted a ticket to report that I still had mixed listings in my MP store. The response was to file a jira. Since a jira for this existed, I added the info to the jira.

At present, this jira is still showing in its entirety here: Jira 4587.  At least it is for me.  I'm not sure now if one didn't contribute to a jira if it can be seen.  This is considered a "showstopper" bug so I'm interested (1) to see if this bug is EVER corrected (technical minds on the forums have commented that new coding of the MP is needed to correct this and that's likely not going to happen) and (2) once this jira is no longer visible in its entirety, merchants who discover this bug going forward will have no idea how many other merchants are experiencing it as well.  As others have mentioned on this thread - knowing "it's not just me" from referencing a jira is invaluable.

 

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Perrie Juran

Perrie Juran

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Drongle McMahon wrote:

I have to emphtically agree with you here. Interactive refinement of the reproduction and extensive testing by the originator, all after triage and acceptance, and all at the request of Lindens, have often been involved in jiras I have participated in. Often the refinement depended on non-originator contributions, and often those contributions were in the form of generalisation to further cases and relationsips to other jiras (which they will now not see). Is it possible the changes were designed by someone who is just not aware of the way the jira is constructively used, only of how it is occasionally abused?

You are absolutely right!

In my JIRA,  which I am still unable to view now, while my issue still remains unresolved, we were able to eliminate a number of viably potential causes.  We at least know what the problem is not.

And a real bug a boo is should I find the solution, I now have no way to add it so others who had the same problem could benefit.

 

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Drongle McMahon

Drongle McMahon

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WEB-4587 is one of those minority of jiras that gain high exposure, for obviously understandable reasons, and then become overrun with comments that are at best not really useful to the solution, and at worst agressive. I think we have to assume that it is to avoid having to deal with this kind of jira that the changes have been introduced. I don't mean to imply that the frustration expressed there is not legitimate, only that it doesn't contribute to the solution, which is what the jira is for. However, it should be possible to find a less drastic solution to this. That jira could surely reasonably have been closed to comments some time ago.

Perhaps some other way for people to exoress their frustration could be found? I remember seeing film of some Japanese companies who kept rubber models of thier executives in a basement roo together with baseball bats for employees to hit them with. A digital equivalent, maybe with Linden-bots (even a Rodvik-bot?) in the stocks, could be set up somwhere inworld. There's plenty of abandoned mainland avaiable. Perhaps some could be dedicated to this? Probably better if it's nor personal. The effigies could be identified by issue identifiers hung round their necks, and count the blows received used to measure the extent of frustration per issue. A small charge for setting up a new effigy could be adjusted to discourage potential over-use.

I would have made this a feature request, but those are not available any more.

 

 

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Perrie Juran

Perrie Juran

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Posted

Drongle McMahon wrote:

WEB-4587 is one of those minority of jiras that gain high exposure, for obviously understandable reasons, and then become overrun with comments that are at best not really useful to the solution, and at worst agressive. I think we have to assume that it is to avoid having to deal with this kind of jira that the changes have been introduced. I don't mean to imply that the frustration expressed there is not legitimate, only that it doesn't contribute to the solution, which is what the jira is for. However, it should be possible to find a less drastic solution to this. That jira could surely reasonably have been closed to comments some time ago.

Perhaps some other way for people to exoress their frustration could be found? I remember seeing film of some Japanese companies who kept rubber models of thier executives in a basement roo together with baseball bats for employees to hit them with.
A digital equivalent, maybe with Linden-bots (even a Rodvik-bot?) in the stocks, could be set up somwhere inworld. There's plenty of abandoned mainland avaiable. Perhaps some could be dedicated to this?
Probably better if it's nor personal. The effigies could be identified by issue identifiers hung round their necks, and count the blows received used to measure the extent of frustration per issue. A small charge for setting up a new effigy could be adjusted to discourage potential over-use.

I would have made this a feature request, but those are not available any more.

 

 

"A digital equivalent, maybe with Linden-bots (even a Rodvik-bot?) in the stocks, could be set up somwhere inworld. There's plenty of abandoned mainland avaiable. Perhaps some could be dedicated to this?"

 

What an awesome idea for a role play SIM.  It could quickly become the most visited spot in SL.

 

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Czari Zenovka

Czari Zenovka

Posted
Posted

Perrie Juran wrote:

Drongle McMahon wrote:

WEB-4587 is one of those minority of jiras that gain high exposure, for obviously understandable reasons, and then become overrun with comments that are at best not really useful to the solution, and at worst agressive. I think we have to assume that it is to avoid having to deal with this kind of jira that the changes have been introduced. I don't mean to imply that the frustration expressed there is not legitimate, only that it doesn't contribute to the solution, which is what the jira is for. However, it should be possible to find a less drastic solution to this. That jira could surely reasonably have been closed to comments some time ago.

Perhaps some other way for people to exoress their frustration could be found? I remember seeing film of some Japanese companies who kept rubber models of thier executives in a basement roo together with baseball bats for employees to hit them with.
A digital equivalent, maybe with Linden-bots (even a Rodvik-bot?) in the stocks, could be set up somwhere inworld. There's plenty of abandoned mainland avaiable. Perhaps some could be dedicated to this?
Probably better if it's nor personal. The effigies could be identified by issue identifiers hung round their necks, and count the blows received used to measure the extent of frustration per issue. A small charge for setting up a new effigy could be adjusted to discourage potential over-use.

I would have made this a feature request, but those are not available any more.

 

 

"A digital equivalent, maybe with Linden-bots (even a Rodvik-bot?) in the stocks, could be set up somwhere inworld. There's plenty of abandoned mainland avaiable. Perhaps some could be dedicated to this?"

 

What an awesome idea for a role play SIM.  It could quickly become the most visited spot in SL.

 

I'd go there!!!!

 

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Crim Mip

Crim Mip

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Posted

This is the most idiotic thing I've ever seen. Not only does it seem to be a way for LL to avoid actually fixing bugs it doesn't feel like fixing, this also means residents won't know about bugs that could cause them potential harm such as the parcel overlay bug because LL's communication of issues is basically non-existent. It's not good on LL's end either since many residents will issue separate jiras for the same thing only worded or titled differently so somebody will have to sift through those and maintain multiple jira's for the same issue. You can't tell me they won't miss some or mislabel many more as duplicates than they do now.


If LL wants to avoid Jira's getting hostile comments, maybe they ought to start fixing issues that seriously affect many residents in a more timely fashion. Given the fiasco of bugs caused by the pathfinding rollout, if I hadn't been a long time resident, I'd likely have left and figured LL was just totally incompetent instead of staying and figuring the management was totally incompetent. (I'm assuming the devs are actually talented.)

This is nothing more than a misguided attempt to hide real issues with SL from the residents. If I had the means, I'd set up an independent web site to post notices of major issues that would be open for everyone to see and search.

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Emily Aries

Emily Aries

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The changes to the Jira is all just silly. I inadvertantly wasted my own and the Lindens by creating a duplicate bug report yesterday. What made it annoying is that I actually searched for duplicate bugs before creating it (I forgot I couldn't see other peoples bugs now). I couldn't even mark it as a duplicate because the system won't let me. Whirly kindly told me which bug I had duplicated and I could not even go to look at it! This is ridiculous.

I agree a lot of the pointless comments on Jira need to be stopped but at let people at least LOOK at the other bug reports so they can not waste their time creating a duplicate.

I couldn't even close the bug I had created because the only option available now is "Not a bug", which is obviously just silly because it is a bug, just an unneeded duplicate report which I should have been able to mark as duplicate and close it to save everyones time.

Apparently trying to be helpful is not what LL want. I'm giving up on using the beta viewers and helping to find bugs. There have been a number of occasions in the past where I have found bugs that matched what I found, but now I really can't see myself wasting my time probably creating a number of duplicate reports simply because I can't see what new bugs have been reported.

Bah humbug.

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Sassy Romano

Sassy Romano

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Moon Metty wrote:

* Scratching head *

 

 

Here Baker Linden asks you to:

 

- Download and install a special beta viewer.

- Go to the beta-grid.

- Send bugreports by IM.

Personally speaking, I won't bother.  If LL staff can't articulate the value, purpose and use to which LL's customers use the JIRA system then the burden of that explanation shouldn't be transferred to the user base.

LL at whatever level have opted out of bug interaction in a meaningful way, so have I.

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Vex Streeter

Vex Streeter

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Bottom line is that they're essentially getting rid of the public JIRA by making it indistinguishable from the private one.

A disappointingly obtuse move.  The only way that I can see this not being a net lose for *Linden* (it is obviously a huge lose for Residents) is if they are going to get out of the software business and just be the hosting provider.

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Boudicca Littlebird

Boudicca Littlebird

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I never used the old system and I find the lindens to hostile;e to really deal with, I have found loads of bugs, child prims are a nightmare with lots of instructions now, since the larger prims are allowed more so, I find work rounds, but my experience is anything linden is a death warrant if you attempt to have a point of view, like with sculpts, all my sculpt products I can't sell because the scuplts get deleted and I am told it is a glitch, a repeating one for the same sculpt, I think that tells us what we are seen as, not creators any more just threats to friends, still the whole western world is turning into a banana republic so why should sl be any diff.

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Domsson Lean

Domsson Lean

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I haven't read through all 9 pages of this thread, but I discovered the Jira announcment just yet and simply have to let some steam off, so sorry for saying everything you already said for the thousandst time.

Ok, so nowadays, there a basically two ways to run a company:

  • The old-fashioned way, where you make up some kind of product/service behind closed walls, then get yourself some agressive marketing that will advertise your product in hardly legal ways just to make the most money possible. All this involves "making much with less", for example regarding your employees, as well as trying to make it hard for customers to get back to you or let their opinions about your product get public. This worked well for many years and still does for a lot of companies.
  • The "new" way, that will be suggested by almost every PR/Marketing consultant: instead of producing a somewhat marketable product and spending lots on the ads, try to really craft a good product - a product people will notice and love without too much advertising whatsoever. Also, try to stay in the most direct contact with your customers as possible, be at eye level with them, don't be afraid of critizism (instead, take it as a chance to improve), be as transparent as possible. In the days of the internet, where companies have Facebook profiles and the like, this makes a lot more sense.

Now, with SL, we've seen a company and product that pretty much followed the "new" way, where even the product itself is OpenSource, where the employees - think of Torley, for example - really now their product, their world and are on eye level with the users - where emplyees are users themselves. There was lots of exchange between users and LL, and that's great. However, with every new step, it seems LL tries to regress to that "old fashioned" way, that - nowadays - can ruin you pretty fast if done wrong, or at least will change the face, the nature, and also the userbase of your product for good.

The changes that are made to the Jira are the most clearest steps towards this poor vision. It really is insane and a huge punch in every user's face. Seriously. Of course I see the motivation behind it - it's understandable that LL was overwhelmed by the sheer number of Jira entries popping up; they just couldn't react to all of them in a fashionable time, hence people starting to blame them for that, so I can literally see someone in a big position calling a meeting, and saying: "Guys, our users are ranting because of all the bugs and because we're reacting too slow or not at all. What can we do to make this problem go away?" - and, eventually, some couragous person even answered: "Well, what about we hire some more people that would, at least, answer on the Jiras, telling people about the current state of work, so they know we're not forgetting about them?". I guess this person was fired later that day, and instead, they agreed on: "Let's just take the user's possibillities of complaining away - or at least make it so noone else will see it! Yay!".

Still, as stated and explained above - and as you all feel alike - this is unbelievable stupid.


Let's just make a pro/con list - I'll try to make it from a LL/Users mixed point of view.

Pro (LL)

  • You can only submit bugs, not feature requests. This will help concentrate on the real issues instead of nice-to-have features that can't be worked on anyway.
  • Noone, but the reporter, can see his/her bug report. This will help silencing the user's comlaints, because it will be way harder for them, to even spread the word about an issue.

Contra (LL)

  • Instead of one (and maybe a few duplicates) bug report on an issue, LL will have to handle dozens, maybe hundrets or thousands of bug reports on a single issue. This will, again, require manpower that would better be spent elsewhere.
  • Where smart user's and TPV developers would give important input, sometimes even ready-to-implement solutions in the comments, LL developers will now be completely on their own, no input at all.
  • Generally, the decisions will generate lots of anger within the users, which - obviously - isn't good, as this is what they're trying to prevent. Since we can still exchange via Facebook, Twitter, Blogs, Forums, In-World IM's and Group, (...), this will not work anyway, as people's anger will find a way to spread in any case.
  • Without public bug repots, there won't be any votes/watches either, so LL can't judge about the importance of an isse, other than by their own perception, that - naturally - is very limited.

Contra (Users & LL)

  • Where people were once able to find workarounds to their problems in the Jira, they will now simply have to wait for a fix to be deployed, which - as we all know - may take so long that those users may instead decide to leave SL. I, for example, am only able to use SL because of a workaround suggested in a Jira, and that's true for several month now!
  • Users can't know if their issue has already been reported, so often they'll just assume someone else did, which means issues will go unreported. On the other hand, ofthen they will do, although it has already been done, hence they'll spend their time filing a report (just so that a LL employee has to spend some more time to notice that it's a duplicate).
  • Being unable to scan the Jira for existing problems and possible workarounds, this will also often make it harder to develop new stuff in SL (think about the numerous references to the Jira from the LSL wiki!), so it actively handicaps the user's creation process.
  • (and lots more)

Bottom line: I have got the strong feeling that LL has changed their nature. They lost the ideals, lost the vision, lost the connection the user base. Instead of staying open and on eye sight, they're shutting themselves up, closing every door and window. Instead of keeping SL the amazingly open platform it was, where everything goes and nothing can't be done, where the users can help to develop that world, they're now heading towards a closed product that no longer sees users as participants, but simply as a source of income. A closed product, that will be handed to us as is, "eat it or leave", where - instead of believing in the creative power of the users, they are generalized as stupid consumers. I got the feeling they really try to make SL more of a game that will give you a certain set of possibilities rather than an open world that will give you any possibility.

Maybe I'm exaggerating, but that's the feeling I get - that's what steps like this suggest. What will be next? I don't even want to think on it.

 

Seriously, I'm angry. And I don't get angry too easily, believe me.

 

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  • 3 months later...
Temba1488304225

Temba1488304225

Posted
Posted

Seriously these forums don't work, it's pointless to vent or express our concerns on these forums , as lL continues to ignore whats on these forums, Lindens do NOT read these forums, , the ONLY thing LL seems to respond to is open letters with a petetion, thi is the only thing that going to work now, that and a compleat boycott of Secondlife, how bout this, a second Life black out day, were NO ONE  logs in for 48 hours, no one buys or exchanged lindens for $, no one uses the web sites, jira's or forums, a compleate black out, 0 traffic, this will get LL's attention. and for 1 month NO ONE  pays their sim teirs, land rents, and parcel tiers, for 1 month NO ONE pays their monthly acount fees. this will get LL's attention in a BIG way.

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Pamela Galli

Pamela Galli

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Temba wrote:

Seriously these forums don't work, it's pointless to vent or express our concerns on these forums , as lL continues to ignore whats on these forums, Lindens do NOT read these forums, , the ONLY thing LL seems to respond to is open letters with a petetion, thi is the only thing that going to work now, that and a compleat boycott of Secondlife, how bout this, a second Life black out day, were NO ONE  logs in for 48 hours, no one buys or exchanged lindens for $, no one uses the web sites, jira's or forums, a compleate black out, 0 traffic, this will get LL's attention. and for 1 month NO ONE  pays their sim teirs, land rents, and parcel tiers, for 1 month NO ONE pays their monthly acount fees. this will get LL's attention in a BIG way.

My mother used to call this "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

 

But do let us know when you get that boycott organized.

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