How to deal with persone who is uploading and selling mesh models from google warehouse?

[Masami Kuramoto]

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Min Barzane wrote:

No i am not  afraid of competition,more original creators the better!

Theifs like this guy aint competition,they are just greedy BS artists,lazy and to dumb to care about is what they do legal or not!All he cares about is $,fast and as much as possible with minimum effort!

Real competition,tru creators,original ones,they don't damage my buisness,they just make me make better creations!

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If those models were brought to SL by the original creators rather than a thief, what difference would it make to your business? They're still the same models!

If you have indeed contacted the original creators, why can't you accept their decisions? If they don't care, why do you?

If you find your business in competition with similar Google Warehouse models, you basically have two options: develop a unique style, or accept the fact that your stuff is nothing special. The latter is only a problem if you're in it for the $$ rather than the art.

[Pamela Galli]

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Vegro Solari wrote:

 You'll never get any good sleep if you worry about such things!

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I don't worry about things I have no control over. When I say "That's the way it is" I mean, and it ain't gonna change.

[Josh Susanto]

>The fact is that content creators are at a big disadvantage compared to content uploaders.

That's why I don't create anything I expect anyone else to be able to simply upload.

Of course, since my stuff is full perms, the buyers are in almost the same positions as uploaders, so I suppose I'm still competing with almost the same kind of thing in terms of people reselling my stuff (as, yes, I have wilfully enabled them to do).

I certainly object to people doing a bunch of things in Second Life and on the Second Life Marketplace website, but I also recognize that I agreed to a set of rules when I came here that ultimately really only disallows some of these things. 

If I believe that I'm unable to compete with something that someone does, but which the system ultimately allows, I figure my choices are either to put up with the situation, work around it in some way, or simply stoop to an even lower moral level than my competitors.

So far, I'm preferring the work-around angle. Maybe it doesn't pay as much as what someone else is doing. But it's also a continuing creative challenge, and it does at least pay something.

You may be morally entitled to make more money than your lazy competitors who will rip anything for a fast buck, but the system just isn't set up to assure that you will do that in any particular way, and it's not really clear to me how it could be set up differently to provide you with such assurance without also entailing so many other costs that it might not ultimately just mean less money both for your competition and for yourself.

I'm not a perfectionist. Mostly, I figure we can start to worry more about LL policing or not policing users when we have finally got LL to police its own people any more diligently than it already polices users. Users gaming the rules may be costing you some sales, sure. But I still think it's a drop in the bucket compared to what we are all not earning due to misconduct by Lindens, themselves.

Why shouldn't we prefer to help keep them focused on the larger problem?

[Pamela Galli]

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Josh Susanto wrote:

 

You may be morally entitled to make more money than your lazy competitors who will rip anything for a fast buck, but the system just isn't set up to assure that you will do that in any particular way, and it's not really clear to me how it could be set up differently to provide you with such assurance without also entailing so many other costs that it might not ultimately just mean less money both for your competition and for yourself.

 

________

 

I don't know what "morally entitled" means. If you read back, I stated that LL (and anyone else who thought about it) understood very well what the inevitable effect of having mesh on the grid was. No, there is no way to avoid ripped mesh from flooding the grid. No way to remove it once it is here.

That. Is. the. Way. It. Is. 

 

 

[Masami Kuramoto]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I don't know what "morally entitled" means. If you read back, I stated that LL (and anyone else who thought about it) understood very well what the inevitable effect of having mesh on the grid was. No, there is no way to avoid ripped mesh from flooding the grid. No way to remove it once it is here.

That. Is. the. Way. It. Is. 

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OK, Pamela, here's the deal: The next time you see a ripped item that you think is hurting your business, send me a picture of it. I promise I'll make a comparable legit item from scratch and put it on the marketplace (under my alt account which has payment info), undercutting the price of the ripped item. In return I'm asking you to quit whining.

Does that sound good or what?

[Pamela Galli]

What part of "That's the way it is. I don't worry about things I can't change." do you not understand Masamai? 

 

[Masami Kuramoto]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

What part of "That's the way it is. I don't worry about things I can't change." do you not understand Masamai? 

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You keep whining about things you can't change. That's even worse.

I was offering you to take rippers out of business by undercutting their prices. But then of course, you don't like freebies either, even if they are legit. So it doesn't really make any difference.

[Josh Susanto]

>Does that sound good or what?

I think you should do it regardless of whether or not anyone whines more or less than they did before.

In fact, if something is ripped, I wouldn't necessarily mind someone at least pointing it out somewhere.

[Poenald Palen]

I could get into writting 2000 words plus on this, but I really would be so short of even starting to address the HUGE issues that are at work behind the feelings, the interactions, the legal roots and the history alone would be a few hundred and STILL would be far short of what is needed to explain the stuff I see here. I fall short of a explaanation, run out of knowledge, and so I would have to research and ramble on forever.

So, I will adress a more pressing issue that is also sort of related...well, at least at first we see the problem. Resources. Both time, digital storage, prims and so on. BUT, the humble and deadly PIE will become the center of this example and subsequent rambling and tangent! Enjoy, but not pie...it can kill you slowely and oh so tastely! BEWARE!

Pie. Many people make it, many dont' have favorite styles. Resources limit this. Those resources are gas, time, and your mental ability to sift through what is available. Some make it, so you could say some are short of the knowledge or experience. I mean, there are other implications of eating pie!

I mean, the saturated fats alone can make up 50% of your USDA daily requirements and you still haven't eaten even half of it yet!! One measily 6th of it! ARGHHH, what universe is this!!! A universe with tastyness and yet....it clogs the pipes and kills me! WHy makes pipes to sticky!? WHY!? What cruelty. I could buy ingredients, make pie. BUT, if I eat it I die a little bit. WHYY!!! I mean, of all things...why couldn't brocolli be deadly? OR, why doesn't our brains LOVE brocolli? I mean, why can we not eat a coliflower and it would be better than sex...literally!!! I mean, we just can't handle it and MUST eat another RUTABEGA!!! NOW. OMGBBW RUTABEGAS!!! yet....it is deadly pie that kills us, sweat and tasty inoccent looking pie. It loosk warm, it will feed you and nourish you...it is round...sort of like the basic shape of a nipple! We are all made to feed from nipples....the areaola is imprinted into our brains...well, those who where breast fed...maybe? This **bleep** universe, banged into existance or whatever happened and sitting here, all created by some strange unseen forces or...or...whatever it is, a God of some sort....it creates a world with pie....and it KILLS YOU!!!!

What about jawslike attacks from cheesecake? I bet in the future some swine does this, just to laugh....surely the devil made pie and THIS was the reason the split in heavan happened and he was cast out! Pieisdie lost....a sad poem that should have been wrote, but never was....I bet the author died of heart disease chuckling and writting it!!

I mean.....WHYYYYYYYYYY! WHHHAAAAHHHHHHHAAAARGGHGHGHGHGHGGG>..WHYYY!! why! /me collapses into a heap on the floor andponders virtual world pie made of only the electrical impulses the mind gets...you can feel it, smell it and all the full experience. Just one small low prim room, and pie. 1million polygons, 5 trillion tasteegons and thousands of smellygons all poured into the model! And, yes....I beleive the olfactory nerves respond to the SHAPE of the particles that it encounters. The olfactory nerves deal with taste, smell and uh....maybe something else yet...like pheramone detection, which is not exactly smell...not detectable smell anyway....well, I mean, not smelly detectable but somehow air born and detected...maybe detected in some people. Ha! Wiat, you thought I was just joking and making a funny word up with repeating 'gons' suffix. HAH, you will see....one day maybe people will credit me with Smellegons! Or possibly, smellygons! I shant register it, it is free for all to use! BUT, would appreciate any news onthese new geometric representatins, which would be akin to particles in thier effieciency and would save many polygons worth of data!

 

Uh, yes....it is a cruel world. I am not joking, it really does seem that way. Many try to make it worse, or make excuses while they make it worse. Others seem to try to make it less cruel. Some laugh at it. I feel as if I have done less harm then both for having laughed at it all. Besides, laughing makes you live longer! So, enjoy what the cruel world may have tried to rob form you today! I bet it tried to use PIE as well.....bastards, surely they are these reptillians that I have heard of...I bet they invented pie! So very sad. And don't get me started on cake, but cake can be made with no eggs and less deadly oils...ok, they are not 'deadly' as in instantanous death...but you know what I mean, they clog arteries faster.

[Min Barzane]

2000  words of total nonsense and absolutely off topic...

[JoJo Aurelia]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

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Min Barzane wrote:

It is my buisness becouse that persone and likes of him are ruining my legitimate buisness ( and not only myne )!

I spend days (in some cases weeks ) creating models from scratch!

 

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Same argument could be said for those who buy a template and then just texture it and sell their creation for a very low price.  How do you report those when they've done nothing technically wrong?

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I have several friends who are template makers and they might take umbridge to stating that what they sell is illegal and somehow wrong. Designers have specialities. Not everyone can make mesh, or sclupts, or certain types of textures. If the requirment to be a designer in real life meant you had to know how to "sew," the world would be empty of top designers. Second Life isn't different, there's some weird pervasiveness to believe that you have to do it all or you lack legitimacy.

Regarding Google Warehouse, I have seen houses and furniture here, too for sale, culled from that massive archive. I used to be part of the Google Sketch up community. But I believe I read somewhere that LL didn't not approve of the use of this mesh unless it is free to be used under a license. LL would require someone (if it's offending them)  to report the individual under abuse (done inworld), and state what they've discovered. But I doubt they'll have good luck with that abuse report. I'm sorry this is happening, but there are many things killing the merchants in Second Life.

 

[Sassy Romano]

It would appear that there was a comprehension failure there.  I didn't suggest that using templates was in any way illegal.

 

[Josh Susanto]

>2000  words of total nonsense and absolutely off topic...

If it can be boiled down to a tweet without making it seem any less pointless, maybe there's a job for someone at LL.

[Josh Susanto]

>Not everyone can make mesh, or sclupts, or certain types of textures.

Practically any idiot can make the kind of sculpts I make and the kind of money I make with them, provided that they have a tiny bit of patience to have me explain to them how I do it - which I have many times offered to do for free. 

And I use all free, fully-portable resources. 

Not directly on-topic?  OK.

But I think there is a mythology behind certain production processes that might be worth somewhat dispelling in order to make better sense of the larger discussion.

[JoJo Aurelia]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

It would appear that there was a comprehension failure there.  I didn't suggest that using templates was in any way illegal.

 

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Oh that's possible! LOL :matte-motes-sunglasses-2:

[JoJo Aurelia]

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Josh Susanto wrote:

>

Not everyone can make mesh, or sclupts, or certain types of textures.

Practically any idiot can make the kind of sculpts I make and the kind of money I make with them, provided that they have a tiny bit of patience to have me explain to them how I do it - which I have many times offered to do for free. 

And I use all free, fully-portable resources. 

Not directly on-topic?  OK.

But I think there is a mythology behind certain production processes that might be worth somewhat dispelling in order to make better sense of the larger discussion.

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You don't have to call people idiots. Let me look up your items so I never buy from you again.

[Josh Susanto]

I didn't call anyone an idiot, and that includes you. 

What I said was that even being an idiot wouldn't prevent someone from doing what I do.

But I should clarify that for the geometric stuff, I'm not using a free app; I'm using a cheap device that I bought with money from the stuff I made with the free apps.

People are limited by the perceived need to buy applications like Photoshop almost as much as they are limited by any lack of basic ability, and it is often difficult for people to distinguish someone else's greater ability from that person's greater ability to buy things that make everything easier to do. 

I'm sorry if I've got off on the wrong foot with you. 

Even if you never buy anthing I've made, ever, I'll be happy to tell you anything and everything I know about my own production process, provided that there's a good time for such discussion. 

The larger point, though, is that I don't need to be dependent on templates and such to see the use of templates and such as creatively defensible. Consumers decide the value of things. No matter how unimpressive someone else's product may be to me, I can't really fault that person for offering it if there is any indication that someone is willing to make an informed purchase decision that will result in a profit. 

I know that some people are arbitrarily retexturing my image-derivative relief sculpts and producing grossly inferior effects. That's the downside of offering things full-perms, so I accept it in order to maintain the upside.

A lot of recycled data produces value-subtracted items, and that's sad. But I don't think such things do much to detract from demand for the better items. When something is actually improved by continued tampering to a point where it upstages the original item, I understand that some people are upset by that, even if they have no special proprietary right to the same or similar data. I don't see things the was such people see things. I see this phenomenon as part of an evolutionary process that gradually raises the bar for anyone in a position to try to produce a competing item at a competitive price. If the bar gets raised too high too quickly for a few people, that's sad for them, but it wouldn't justify punishing consumers by offering them fewer choices as a means of subsidizing people whose valuation of their own products is out-dated.

 

[Min Barzane]

Josh.. I looked up your creations and from what i have seen they are not as you say simple to make,i am sculptor and mesh creator myself,i know how hard it is,both using free apps and payed ones....But thats becisdes the point,you are original creator,you make things on your own ideas,original,unique,thats what SL needs.... ORIGINALITY...not some recycled,ripped or stolen crap  ( not necesery crap,most of items are realy nice creations and original  maker (( AND IP HOLLDER )) invested lot of time in making it ) ppl i originaly mentioned ( still not stating names due to TOS ) upload and sell.

Faye..noone called you or annyone else an idiot! Legality of templates is not in question, they are creation helpers, and thats what they are made & used for,100%% legal. Also using template still results in original creation in end, due to changes, painting and texture work on them!

My original question was,ill repeat it again,becides notify IP holders of ilegaly uploaded mesh about it and let them decide will they file DMCA and takedown request to LL can WE as SL residents do annything more about ilegal ( in this case mesh ) content we find on MP and inworld? What can WE do to keep SL ORIGINAL & UNIQUE???

 

 

[Sassy Romano]

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Min Barzane wrote:

 What can WE do to keep SL ORIGINAL & UNIQUE???

 

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Nothing more.

[Josh Susanto]

I appreciate people saying that my stuff looks "original", but I wouldn't be doing justice to the facts if I merely accepted such a compliment without any clarification.

My surface textures are mostly very heavily edited, but almost none of them are SOPA compliant. 

Just because a photographer would, in many cases, never even be able to say with certainty that the image is even of the same object he or she photographed does not mean that I've retained some kind of signed release from the IP holder of every single image I've used. The 512 kludged stone series is mostly derived of public domain images treated to negative and color layer swapping treatment. I have other more explicitly public domain derived items, and the Selena Wells stuff is all broadly authorized by Selena Wells, whose etsy link is on the description lines of the items. 

I don't remove seams form my textures the same way that people do it in PS, and the result is different in some ways that are better and other ways which are not as good. I mostly just square cropped images, retile them so that the frame forms a cross in the center and drop a corroded circular punchout of the unretiled square image on top to cover the cross. There's nothing mysterious about this, but I haven't seen that anyone else is doing it. Why not? I'm not sure. They're using plenty of other methods that only yield a more problematic set of results. 

For shapes, I basically mediate a set of sculpt templates with versions in which I've put gray data in any place that should be moved toward the center. Usually that's just the darker 50% of the surface image. 

That's already probably about half of what would distinguish what I do from what someone else would probably do.

Not that complicated, huh.

[Poenald Palen]

turns into a birdbrained blue bird thingy...ok, not SO bird brained...I can speak aparehntly!

*tweet* 3d scanners? Is that the device you speak of Mr/Ms Susanto?

*tweet* Off topic! On the contrary, it is age old issue shown by example.

*teet* Copyrights! Epic fights, hated and loved since first put into law...so many implications! Should a person tell or not?  What to do? It hurts his biz? Futility! HIGH POLY...wow, like pie...'fatty' huh?

*tweet* don't consumers just want more pie? So, yeah...BUT...maybe they just want more as in even his AND yours? But, yeah...sad feeling and maybe your right and sales drop for us both! Sad, confort food...where is my pie. IF I can afford one!

So, I off-topically was on topic. Just a more subtle between the lines topic!

BTW, I will not count these words to see if they are below 140 or wahtever. Just saying.

[Josh Susanto]

3D scanners would be the extreme.

I can't even afford Photoshop.

I don't blame people for using 3D scanners if they can, but they shouldn't expect any more Linden protection for their work than can someone sculpting blind with RGB data in the application "Paint" (yes, I have done that).

[Poenald Palen]

To keep SL original and creative? I give 2cents on this, to make up for any perceived waste of time. These are BIG 2c coins, but are basically not nonsense...or are they? I think some of this might be feasible. But, I am NOT a socializer...I am not the one for this efforts leader and these are basically a few ideas anyone may come up with anyway...sort of DUH ones in there to. But, at least they show as a vote for the creation...I do sometimes participate in forums, just not personal chatty freindly stuff and like to work alone.

I would think that making classes, or supporting existiing ones and helping new creators would help to maybe guide them towards making stuff that is creative. Also helping to point out the guidelines and TOS involving copyright as this is a enlightening (or maybe shocking!) set of guidelines on the wiki or knowledge base that is worth a read! So, maybe teach or sponser and find a teacher for a class on concept art?

Maybe even make a competition where people submit original art and you model it? They win the model made for them! Tell them it is concept basics over drawing skill, so you can maybe even be liberal with thier art a bit and still capture what they wanted and couldn't express? Network with concept artists on Devient art? Make buddies with them? Look at mr. susatno's deal with an etsy creator as inspiration and confirmation here?

Group for original artists and designers and chat and focus on it's importance? There are those who break the rules, yes. But, when you invest  time into something only to have it taken down....you are not doing yourself a service! Not only that, but they may not know this! Tell them of the TOS in a class, group or make a guild or meeting type of thing? Event maybe? May be fruitful, maybe just arguments lol.

I am working on concepts, and have also looked for practice blue prints and refs. References and blueprints are very important to modellers, animators and other creators who wish to use a bit of realism in thier works OR simply don't like to 'sketch' in 3D or animate non-real creations. I mean, sharing some sources of usable original concept stuff, or maybe even making them and encouraging non-3d concept artists to share via websites...well, this might help!

If money is more of a motivator for all involved, then obiously maybe a set of social network connections places set up to allow others to find 3D artists to make thier stuff. If the 2D artist pays for this, or even vise versa and the 3D artist pays for a concept based on some language based instructions and ideas shared....well, maybe this works to create more original content? More creates interest, plus they themselves may become customers of each others wares and may bring like minded friends, who may or may not be talented but enjoy the stuff either way? Anyone want to make a HUB of some kind, help people get hooked up and maybe help each other with marketing and promotion?

Do you feel that 3D is a barrier? Archapeligo Designer, Moment of Inspiration or some other software might appeal to those who are not into blender or other polygon centric modelling software? Not that blender is simply a 3d modeller, it isn't. But the modelling part is not as well equiped for NURBS, though Bsplines is a very promising new addition available. Moment of Inpiration seemed pretty simple, costs less and worked nicely enough to design things, from what I saw and remember of it. So, maybe any users of these teach some SL tuts? I am sure MOI users would like to see them, as well as potential customers? So, share some tutorials somewhere on how to do original designs, not just using blue prints or RL items. Help use see how you sketch it up in MOI or archapeligo?

Creativity sometimes means you have to reach out of your box or rut and have a different experience...so, maybe give some people something to change thier way of viewing things...NO not LSD...I know one of you must have thought that lol...right? But, I mean....sometimes it might be the news for science fiction fans, possibly a new archiological dig finding for a person RPing stuff in an ancient time....hey, maybe even a new trick you found out that makes a certain look. Share. Teach. Inspire!

Maybe you can make a sort of world, style or 'system' for people to build stuff for? An API or some kind of system others can join in creating for? People did this with breedables, though I am not sure it was successful for all. But, yeah...fishing rods made by fans of the fishing games in SL and so on. Micro avatars sort of do this a bit. You can make bits or avatars, make a place to hang out or a car to use with them. Stuff like that helps those with less time, resources, connections, scripting, or whatever.

 

[Min Barzane]

I have personaly teached manny new creators how to use and use good both  inworld building tools & blender supporting their creativity and originality and i will keep on doing so...

My buisness group ( yes buisness,we sell our stuff but not for soul porpose of profit but to keep paying tier and have quiet place to work in and have a place to show our designs ) hosts so far 8 creative ppl who compete ( for pure joy and fun of it ) who will make more original,different,weird,funny creation.

There are manny 3d programs out there that are free,Blender,Wings3d,as you mention Archipelago ( have to check that one ),its just matter of picking one and stcking to it to learn and learn it good! If ppl have persistance to learn there are no barriers! Ppl say "Oh its hard,i cant do it" Heck stick with it n learn it!!!

Ppl ask me to make manny different things,i dont stick to only 1 line of items, iw made swords, armour, buildings, cars&bikes,jewlery, ewen complete avatars n clothing, if what ppl ask is fun and different enough idea i dont ewen charge them at all!  Also manny things i have in my shop a give away for free,all full perm so others can use them fod their creations as parts, making new and original designs far from what i could imagine that such parts can be used for...creativity has no limits!

[WADE1 Jya]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

In the future you will see more importing and less creating.

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So true. I think in the farther future you will see zero importing and zero creating as linden will pull the plug on this disappointing underperformer to focus solely on their new products currently in beta.

@ OP: I believe everything uploaded to google becomes google's IP. Google makes money by glomming up small IP holders stuff. Same as facebook does. Want to report it? Better talk to google. Protecting IP does not fit with google's business model. Thats why google fights to protect 'our internet freedoms' as they like to call it... good luck.