Paul Hexem

Freya Mokusei wrote: Gadget Portal wrote: I think I see what's going on here... You're getting defensive because I'm bashing this supposedly helpful group aren't you? You betray yourself, sir. In what way are these people merely 'supposedly helpful'? By your own admission they run classes in other subjects, presumably people attend. If people then leave these classes with more knowledge than they entered with, then they are actually helpful. If a location like this wasn't actually helpful, it's likely that it wouldn't exist (because really, can you imagine a place getting donations if no-one learnt anything?) This isn't me being defensive, because I have nothing to defend. I've never worked for an educational organisation teaching SL skills, and I've never accepted donations for my scripting skills. You're in the same postion, you've got nothing to lose because you're an established SL user with skills. Neither of us have anything to lose by discrediting volunteers, but is it smart? You're playing deceitful games with your words, and I think the reasoning behind those games is more interesting than why some fellow SLers rejected you. I don't play games with my words. You're reading into them too much if you're seeing that. Take 'em at face value. And, see my previous response, I think it covers the bases a bit better.

Freya Mokusei wrote: Gadget Portal wrote: Yeah, but it drives home a point. Is your point that your sense of pride is more important than providing new users with an organised location at which to learn skills? Or is it that you can denigrate these volunteers as much as you like, because they 'clearly' don't want help? When you push your own assumptions to the limit in order to discredit someone elses behaviour with obvious moral repurcussions (volunteers telling people to f-off, how very dare they!), you do any point that you might have a severe disservice. There's a lot of assumptions that could be made about this thread, all of them negative (at least, the ones I can find). It wouldn't be very fair of me to push those to the realms of ridiculousness and then make statements about your character. Updated post deserves updated response. I'm not denigrating all the volunteers of that group. I'm sure there are good people there. What I'm saying is a spokesperson for the group blew off and ignored a potential volunteer. I'm not assuming- that DID happen. I just phrase it a lot less politely. Ether way, this reflects poorly on the group, and considering what the group does, it's a surprising response to get. If you read one of the first few responses this thread got, you'll see it's not an isolated incident, either. Further, I don't care if people make negative assumptions about this thread. I'm a jerk, I swear too much, I'm angry and bitter, I'm whining about nothing, whatever you want. I can do that. I'm an individual expressing my opinion. It's my god given right to look like a douche bag. However, as soon as I'm representing a group or a workplace, all this goes away and I change my tune, because I know my actions will reflect on the group, and I do what's best for not only the image of the group, but also what's best for the group's needs. This person had no problem making the group look bad, and since this person was trusted to be in charge, well.. It speaks volumes towards how the group is run.

Qie Niangao wrote: Gadget Portal wrote: They said it was hard, then put me on ignore. That's an odd response for a group begging for help, isn't it? (Sorry, I have a newbie question to start: How do you find out when they put you on ignore?) A couple posts earlier you said: "When I got to the sim, they had signs up and tip jars out, BEGGING for help. They have affiliate vendors everywhere, with crap saying all proceeds pay for the sim, and it's non-profit, yadda yadda. So, I shrugged and decided to be a nice guy and offer help." I don't know this group or their situation, but just from reading this thread, I can imagine that the help they need might be strictly financial--they may not have revenue enough to support the classes they currently offer, and if that were the case, it may well be that yet another instructor of yet another class could be the very last thing they need. In RL, a lot of non-profits basically put up with volunteers because it makes people feel good, but what they really need is money to pay the rent. The volunteers save the non-profit a bit of money (and prevent them from offering an entry-level job to the unemployed), but mostly the hope is that those volunteers will be motivated to donate some cash, please God, before the power gets cut off. (For all I know, however, the "begging for help" signs here may be explicitly asking for volunteer instructors, in which case forget all that.) I don't know if the person actually put me on ignore, or just plain ignored my IMs. It's the same result. I had follow up questions, and none were answered. You could be right about the rest of that. It would make sense. Although if that were the case, I would have preferred they said that, instead of making a forced "polite" answer. There's nothing wrong with saying "We got enough help, give us cash, there's costs here."

Jasmin Helstein wrote: I could have added "and if you don't then don't" to my last sentence but that wouldn't have changed the meaning of my words would it ? All I said really was that you had one short response from one complete stranger in group chat and that under those conditions it is easy to misunderstand someone. Besides ... just a few words from one stranger do not reflect the doings of the entire group. I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Except it wasn't some complete random stranger. It was a member of management acting as a spokesperson for the group, that stepped up after I asked for someone in charge. Guess what? When they put on that manager title and stepped up to my inquiry, yes. They were reflecting the entire group.

Freya Mokusei wrote: Gadget Portal wrote: Yeah, but it drives home a point. Is your point that your sense of pride is more important than providing new users with an organised location at which to learn skills? Or is it that you can denigrate these volunteers as much as you like, because they 'clearly' don't want help? I think I see what's going on here... You're getting defensive because I'm bashing this supposedly helpful group aren't you?

They said it was hard, then put me on ignore. That's an odd response for a group begging for help, isn't it?

Yeah, but it drives home a point.

Ren Toxx wrote: Gadget Portal wrote: "We have an extensive process and we don't take everyone." "So you're not looking for any volunteers at all?" Your answer there seems to me a bit of a jump into (negative) conclussions, Gadget, and while I agree that theirs didn't sound any friendlier, if you're truly interested in something it's always good practice to develop a bit of a thick skin when trying to achieve it; a more logical follow-up would've been: “Ok. So how do I begin this extensive process?”. Maybe even add the good old courtesy “please” word, since in that context you were essentially asking for information (and maybe to someone who wasn't, in fact, the person responsible for providing it). I'll agree that you shouldn't have to jump through too many hoops, especially for something like volunteering... but the opposite is also true: you shouldn't be discouraged too easily :smileywink: You're missing the point (And yes, they were responsible for providing it- I asked to talk to the person responsible for providing that sort of information, and they stepped up). Jasmin Helstein wrote: You only had one short discussion in group chat with one person that probably didn't know you and then it's easy to misunderstand someone. "You're not in our clique, so you're probably not good enough." seems such an unlikely thing to say, even if that's what the other person was thinking. I wouldn't feel so strongly about it. I can imagine they don't get exited just because someone claims to be able to fill a gap. If they don't know you what reason could they have to let you try anyway ? They don't know if you will be a good teacher, someone should take the time to see how you are doing, maybe you will quit after two or three attempts, you would probably have to be fitted in a schedule at the expense of someone else's time. So volunteer or not it would require time and effort from them as well. If you really want to teach you may get to know the group a little better first and let them get to know you better as well. Except I don't. You're not only missing the point, you're making up totally random ones. And ignoring previous replies in the thread. Here's my reply for both of you; This is not a case of me wanting to fulfill my lifelong dream of teaching. This is not me wanting to take over a position in this place. I was told they need help, so I wandered over to check it out when I got free time. This is not some strong desire of mine that I want to fulfill. When I got to the sim, they had signs up and tip jars out, BEGGING for help. They have affiliate vendors everywhere, with crap saying all proceeds pay for the sim, and it's non-profit, yadda yadda. So, I shrugged and decided to be a nice guy and offer help. The response I got was to f-off, because I'm not good enough. And that's fine, I simple won't help. It's not my loss. Doesn't bother me at all. I'm still in script help groups, and people can still come to me anyway. I'll just keep doing what I've been doing. What it did do was it surprised me, considering all the begging they're doing on their sim. They're begging for help, then they blow you off when your help isn't in the form of cash. That gives me insight into the group's attitude and I thought other people should know about it.

Czari Zenovka wrote: Amethyst Jetaime wrote: I can understand that they may want to screen volunteer teachers to make sure they have both the skills they are teaching and are good teachers. After all, you can be an expert at something but be a lousy teacher because teaching is another set of skills all together. My immediate thought was along these lines. Being an effective teacher/instructor is definitely a separate skill set. @Gadget - Here is my RL experience re: something similar: Keep in mind this was back in the 80's when the personal PC was still very new. One basically had to know enough DOS to power up the PC, and then learn the application software. I had background experience in outside sales which led to being hired in this capacity by a franchise store that sold the IBM Personal Computers (at a cost of $7500 without the monitor). I attended training classes, etc. but eventually realized why I had gotten out of sales. A friend of mine was teaching computer application software as an Adjunct Professor at a Jr. College in the adult education division. People who had purchased these new contraptions were signing up in droves to learn how to use them. The college also provided contract classes to train the employees of major companies. My friend kept trying to get me to apply and the pay was excellent - $20.00/hr. - and again, this was in the mid-80's. I protested saying I didn't have enough PC knowledge to teach. She responded that I had the teaching skills and I could at least teach the "Introduction to PC" classes. I finally applied and, during the interview, my soon-to-be supervisor said something I have never forgotten: "Since this is part-time work and the pay is good, we get people applying who have Ph.D's in computer science but they cannot relate to our average adult student; they talk way over their heads. I would rather hire someone who may know less but can relay that knowledge in an understandable, interesting manner." I ended up teaching there for 12 years (continuing to increase the classes that I could teach) and was chosen as the "demo" instructor when the college was bidding for the Walt Disney University contract. We won the contract and I was asked to be the lead instructor. None of that was meant as bragging, but a RL experience that illustrates what could be at play here. I also taught for a time in SL during my first two years. I also took a LOT of classes and noticed that the various SL schools tended to have different "personalities." One school wanted their instructors to be "peppy" and encourage the students to enter contests, for example. The school that I taught with wanted mature, professional instructors, preferably with a background of RL teaching experience. I had several long interviews, was required to submit a resume that indicated past teaching experience, was assigned a mentor, had to attend X number of classes where I "shadowed" my mentor, until I finally taught my first class (another requirement was the instructors had to write their own classes) with my mentor, the school owner, and several other faculty attending. I was critiqued and after all that...approximately 4 months, was able to schedule & teach classes without supervision. I'm sorry you had the rude experience for which there is no excuse, but, based on the above experiences, I can understand the thinking behind it. I see where you're coming from, but here's where it flops; I wasn't even asked my skillset. I wasn't asked what I'd want to volunteer to do, I wasn't put on the spot for my teaching skills or knowledge. I wasn't screened at all. We skipped everything you just said and jumped right to "You're not in our clique, so you're probably not good enough." The conversation was basically "Hey, I'd like to volunteer to help out." "We have an extensive process and we don't take everyone." "So you're not looking for any volunteers at all?" Ignored.

Perrie Juran wrote: Gadget Portal wrote: Amethyst Jetaime wrote: I can understand that they may want to screen volunteer teachers to make sure they have both the skills they are teaching and are good teachers. After all, you can be an expert at something but be a lousy teacher because teaching is another set of skills all together. Even so, I agree it was a rude response. The least the person responding could have done is to direct you to the person that is in charge of teachers so you could at talk to them about it and see what the process was. If I were you, I'd send a notecard to the owner and tell them what happened. They can't expect people with the skills they need to volunteer if that is the way they are treated. If the owner blows you off, then you probably don't want to waste your time volunteering there anyway. I'd be interested to hear what happens if you do this, as I am pretty sure I know what group/school you are talking about. People ask me all the time about learning to build. If that organization operates that way I would reconsider recommending them as they apparently wouldn't be interested in getting the best teachers, only teachers that have connections to get in there. If you are really interested in teaching a class there are other places you could volunteer. You could also just have an independent class that you organize and advertise on your own. Exactly the impression I got- only their friends can do the job. But anyway, if you know other places, feel free to send me a message in world. Or in my feed. Or whatever. But whatever you do, don't send him a notecard! Damn right! A Martian never forgets?

Amethyst Jetaime wrote: I can understand that they may want to screen volunteer teachers to make sure they have both the skills they are teaching and are good teachers. After all, you can be an expert at something but be a lousy teacher because teaching is another set of skills all together. Even so, I agree it was a rude response. The least the person responding could have done is to direct you to the person that is in charge of teachers so you could at talk to them about it and see what the process was. If I were you, I'd send a notecard to the owner and tell them what happened. They can't expect people with the skills they need to volunteer if that is the way they are treated. If the owner blows you off, then you probably don't want to waste your time volunteering there anyway. I'd be interested to hear what happens if you do this, as I am pretty sure I know what group/school you are talking about. People ask me all the time about learning to build. If that organization operates that way I would reconsider recommending them as they apparently wouldn't be interested in getting the best teachers, only teachers that have connections to get in there. If you are really interested in teaching a class there are other places you could volunteer. You could also just have an independent class that you organize and advertise on your own. Exactly the impression I got- only their friends can do the job. But anyway, if you know other places, feel free to send me a message in world. Or in my feed. Or whatever.

So, this was interesting, and I feel like sharing. The story is harder to tell without naming names, but I'm gonna go for it anyway. My friend is in a group that teaches how to build and texture and whatnot. Very large and popular group (which is why the response was so surprising). She complained to me that they don't teach many beginner level scripting or building classes. So, I thought I'd volunteer. Help out. I went down to their sims, joined their groups, searched a little bit, and found no information on it. So, I asked in group, and got a single answer. It was a polite enough response, but I saw right through that crap- I've worked customer service. I know a polite cover when I see one, and that was a polite cover for, "We don't have volunteers. We have instructors, and there's a long process to make sure we like you enough to be one of us". I was blown off, and none of my follow up questions were answered. That's really surprising to me. The way the group operates, practically begging for donations, with unpaid "instructors", you'd think they'd be excited when someone offered to volunteer, not give a clique-ish response. It's weird, and further reinforces what I keep saying. People don't actually want help, they just want to complain that no one will help them.

Amethyst Jetaime wrote: I do not have my IM's going to email. Here's why I keep business hours in SL. In RL you can't contact a store outside their business hours for assistance so why should customers expect that in SL? Besides, what kind of emergency could arise in SL that can't wait 24 hours or less for me to reply? Even when I am working on another screen my avi is in world and I can see when I get an IM. People have hours and hours to contact me every day, unless I am sick or in a place in RL with no web access.(Yes there are still places like that) At the end of my business hours, they can contact me by notecard and I reply the next day. I've never had a customer complain to me about my service and support. When my work day is done it is done. I have a private SL that I spend with my partner and friends. I think it would be rude to them to interrupt out conversations and activities to deal with a customer especially since 90 percent of the ones who contact me could answer their own question if they read my instructions. I have a RL and when I am logged out of SL, I am not near my computer to even see emails, so there is no point in having my IM's to email. I keep hours in SL too. With the estate company, they don't expect us to be on call 24/7. I still get the messages forwarded to email so that I can see and deal with them when I AM on duty.

You can't wear a tip jar, you have to rez it.

Amethyst Jetaime wrote: The goal is to ensure that customers that need to contact you get their message through. Each person has to decide what works best in their circumstances to make sure this happens. If you don't want notecards you can say that in your profile. But no matter what you do, some people won't read that and send them anyway. That's all well and good until they start bitching because I'm not reading their notecard while I'm replying to them via email and telling them I can't read whatever they just sent me.

Solar Legion wrote: Faye Feldragonne wrote: I request notecards. I don't get off line IM's. When I log out, I'm out. I made a personal decision to not get IM's offline and focus on real life. Notecards are more reliable for me. And that isn't even mentioning the personal choice to allow/disallow Second Life IM to Email messages to clutter up one's Inbox - a notion that seems to escape some. Any and all remotely decent webmail service and/or pop3 software has filters and folders you can set up. I have about 6. All the scripted objects related to the SL land goes into one folder, other scripted objects go into another folder, avatar messages go into another folder, stuff from people in my contacts get their own folder, RL work stuff gets a folder, and everything else that doesn't meet any of the filters drops into the inbox. It's actually quite streamlined, no clutter.

Tari Landar wrote: l'd also state for the record that the only reason I know I've missed messages, is because I've had people send them to me after the fact, asking if I saw it. It happened a few days ago. I got an offline msg from a good friend that never made it to my email, and wasn't there when I logged on either. She caught me online and c&p'd what she had asked in the msg I didn't get. I trust her timestamp as being accurate-and it was actually an important part of the msg she sent. It wasa a msg that never got sent through, for whatever reason. Definitely not a constant, but I'm not ignorant enough to say it can't happen, even if it's something that doesn't always affect me. There's always the possibility I've missed more messages I don't know about. But since I don't know about them, and the people who sent them never re-send, I can't know I've missed it. Which is why I don't understand the "I've never missed a msg sent to my email before" line. You can't know that for certain. You might have, you wouldn't know if someone didn't tell you though. You can think or believe you've never missed one, but how can you know with any certainty? Semantics I suppose. As for the nc/im debate, I opt for whatever people have in their profiles. If they don't specify, odds are you're going to get both from me. Not always, but it's my typical go to when people don't have a method they prefer. Then again, I only tend to im or send a nc if there is an issue or some pressing matter. It's not often I have a need to contact very many people anyway. Would you feel better if we said, "No one's ever complained that we missed their message"?

That's what I'm saying. Since taking this job with the land baron, I get dozens of messages every day to email, from both residents and scripted objects. And although they're capped when I log in, that doesn't matter because I've already received and replied to them hours ago via email.

@Perrie: While you're right about people not following instructions, it's also partly to blame on dumb merchants that insist that they will never receive a message if it's not a note card. @iCade: I often consider a career as an angry writer/reviewer like you see on those websites, but I don't get angry at enough stuff to make it a full time job. @Penny: I knew someone would show up and agree with me if I waited long enough. Finally a voice of reason!

Ciaran Laval wrote: The CHUI conversations log was supposed to show conversations from the last 30 days, but it doesn't seem to work for me. An LL product that doesn't seem to work? Wait, hang on, I'm going to try to be shocked.

To clarify why this has come up. My profile specifically says to send IMs, not notecards. On top of that, the other day, I was tasked with gathering beta testers for a product I made for a land baron. So I sent out a notice that specifically said to send me IMs if you want to be a beta tester. What happens? I get spammed with notecards that I can't read, instead of the IMs I asked for.

KapaCorn wrote: I think what the OP is trying to say is if you enable "Offline Messages" that any and all messages will be forwarded to your email even if your in-world messages have been capped.. Bingo. Why do so many people not know this?

Ciaran Laval wrote: I prefer getting notecards, you prefer getting IM's, the more important issue is how you get this information to the people who may want to contact you, some people prefer emails and list their email address in their profile. Bolded part for emphasis. Like I said, make it readily obvious that I prefer IM to notecard, and I still get notecard offers to my email.

The viewer may say they're capped and not show them (after the fact) , but like you said, they still go to your email anyway, usually instantly. That's the point I'm making. I've carried on whole conversations via IM to email, long after the 25 message cap limit.

FezVrasta wrote: I've not insulted no one, I used a similar game for years and I've taken my real life back just few months ago. She's talked about the fact that "if I don't understand that SF is not a game I can't do anything", and this is not exactly an useful comment. Your instead is useful, because explain, without the assumption of "game or not game" that a developer for make money here must be active in the community. Ignore the game thing. That argument comes up a lot. Many people in SL tend to get all defensive when someone says "game" and think that if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it must be a goose. The rest of the thread is spot on, though.