Scylla Rhiadra

See!?!?!? THIS is why I ❤️ Second Life. Where else? Really?

I think we've established which part of the elephant you've got hold of . . . 🙃

/me throws up her hand to volunteer . . . ! Oh. Wait. Smooching? meh.

My efforts to produce some "new looks" for myself and my photographs may have taken . . . a slightly disturbing turn. OMG. What have I done????? 😮

Yeah. I think this is a fabulous idea, because Motown isn't just about music -- it was the genesis of an entire culture, with its own values, aesthetic, and so on. There's a lot there for anyone interested in music, history, African American culture, etc. It's a really rich subject. (What I'd love love love to see, along these lines, is a resurrection, in an up-to-date and better arranged form, of the old Harlem Renaissance sim. THAT was fascinating! But admittedly probably not with as wide an appeal.)

I assume you mean mesh models? I didn't know you couldn't, to be honest. I think you're unlikely to get an answer here, although @NiranV Dean does occasionally poke his head in. You might be better off taking this to the Black Dragon Discord, and asking there?

I think we're at that stage in this discussion where we're going to have to amiably agree to disagree. For me, your argument sounds like someone pulling a piece out of a car engine, and saying that it's obviously the most important piece, because the engine won't run without it. And I'm pointing to other pieces, and saying, "Yeah, sure, but the engine won't run without these pieces either: they are all important, and they need to work together for the engine to function." The SL that you describe seems alien to me (and probably would to most of the people in my various circles), not because I am unaware or even unfamiliar with what these parts of SL look like, but because you see them as central and fundamental -- the "core" of SL -- in a way that I just don't. And your statement above, that SL is fundamentally a "virtual dating game," just doesn't accord with my own experience here. It wouldn't have seemed correct to me even when I was "dating" in SL. I frankly hope that LL doesn't take the route that you describe, because I'm convinced it will either kill the platform, or transform it so thoroughly that, for me, it might just as well be dead. If they do go in this direction, I hope you are right, and that it doesn't render this platform uninteresting and unusable for me. But I honestly don't think you are. I take some consolation in the conviction that LL isn't going to attempt anything so radical. What I can see them doing is finding ways to gradually raise the profile of adult content here in marketing terms, in ways that don't threaten to destabilize the entire mechanism. And I'd be fine with that. Long live adult content! So long as it doesn't swamp and destroy everything else here.

I came to fashion relatively late in the game. When I started in SL, it was to be a hard-assed activist, and a just slightly edgy (ca. 1996) seller of women's books, and I tended to dress the part -- torn jeans, army surplus fatigues, and so on. A fashion plate I was not. But . . . I can remember my delight when I got my first pretty, floaty white flexi dress, and how I loved it when it swished as I danced. And I remember, too, how thrilled I was when my then-boyfriend bought me a really lovely Vietnamese Ao Dai. Ironically, this was the time when I was into sex here (albeit not hugely). When I really started getting into fashion and my "look," around 2018 or so, I had actually left that side of things long behind me. In other words, there was nearly zero connection between my interest in how I looked, and my interest, such as it was, in sex. I see fashion as another mode of self-expression, no different, really, than any sort of creative outlet we find for that. And of course, fashion photography is a whole thing unto itself, and adds a whole other dimension to garments as expression. I'd go further, and say that even about people who aren't self-consciously into "fashion," and just do Instagrammy selfies of themselves: it may not seem very sophisticated, but how is it really any less about self-expression and self-actualization than jumping on a pose ball, or wearing a collar? It's still all about realizing, in a virtual environment, something about who we are, and who we wish to be. So, yes, I'm with you. I don't see playing "Barbie" as some kind of slightly disturbing manifestation of latent narcissism. I see it as self-fashioning, self-expression, and creativity.

It's difficult not to feel a bit cynical -- we've seen so many of these sorts of projects fail, often for lack of thought, consultation, or needed resources. This one, though . . . feels different? It does address many of the things we've complained about before with regard to the new user experience. And apparently, this is just the first of planned collaborations of this sort. Imagine a future in which new users having the option to start in areas that highlight, say, fashion, music, art, role play, creating and building, or even sex?

I have yet to meet one who wasn't a walking, talking self-parody.

So. Much. This.

Wow, Ok. This seems to me to have real potential. At the very least it's a new approach. This seems rather cool, and a really neat idea. From Inara's blog piece on this (emphasis mine): "The Motown Experience sits within a nine-region estate built out as a comprehensive Welcome Hub that will in the new future be opened as a Community Gateway to receive incoming new users signing-up to Second Life. As such, it is designed to address what many people have felt has been missing from SL: a fairly engaging environment where incoming users can not only learn about the platform, the viewer and find out how to do the basics – they can actually get involved in activities and (allowing for the popularity of the Motown Experience as a music venue) actually get to meet other users and have some pleasant fun with them." https://modemworld.me/2023/06/20/linden-lab-and-motown-a-new-approach-to-user-on-boarding-in-second-life/ Here's LL's own blog on the experience:

Agreed! Which is actually why I occasionally bridle when non-BDSM or kink is referred to as "vanilla," with, let's be honest, the implication of "humdrum," "everyday," or "unimaginative." As opposed, of course, to tutti frutti kinky sex, with whipped cream, caramel sauce, and chopped nuts! I try not to be annoyed by the "vanilla" label, though, because I understand that the impulse is to try to re-value a lifestyle that has been denigrated and relegated to the shadows for so long. And that's cool and valid. But, yes. Sexuality, all varieties of it, can or at least should be as much about the mind and the imagination, and, as you say, creativity, as anything else. At least, good sex is.

Oh dear god that is fabulous . . . ETA: Ok, stop that. We can't do to this thread what we nearly did to that DM, and take it over for fashion talk! We'll be ostracized and suspended and stuff! Just . . . don't . . .

I came soooo close to tagging you. Seriously. Yeah, agreed. I think that's a far higher priority for . . . well, a LOT of us. And, from now on, whenever I picture you in my head, this will be you. FOREVER.

Absolutely, Cinn! Coffee says just this, and she's absolutely correct. Sex is important here, even if (like me) you're not engaging directly in it. It's a huge part of the economic engine, a vital part of the social puzzle into which we (most of us, anyway) connect, and undoubtedly important enough to a great many people that they'd wander away without it. But that can be said too of a great many activities here.

Actually, I nearly said just this, but I was already being rather prolix. I have a pretty large and pretty active friend's list. I don't know how many of them have "sex lives" in SL -- certainly some do, and a fair number are in relationships that probably, I imagine, include sex. And their sexuality is part of who they are, just as it is in RL. But it's not their focus 24/7, it doesn't solely comprise their many activities here, and it is, in most cases, probably not what brought them to SL. Just as in RL, when sex is important -- it's important! But that doesn't mean that it occupies all, or even anywhere near most, of our waking lives and thoughts. Yes, absolutely. And, again, SL is soooo very complex, and in that sense, really unlike other purpose-built and dedicated MMO platforms. I know that there is a variety of activities available on Minecraft, or WOW, but they are not nearly as open, nor (I very much suspect) as diverse as SL. I do explore a fair bit, and I have friends who belong very much to other parts of SL that I don't much see. I have one friend, for instance, who is here for BDSM, and was barely aware that anything else was to be found in SL. She literally almost never left BDSM hookup places. And of course that's fine -- until one starts making assumptions about other people's experiences, or about the platform in general, based solely upon one's own experience.

This is exactly my point, yes! My own view of SL is far from complete: there are huge swathes of the platform I know only indirectly, slightly, or not at all. And I've not begun to touch upon the enormous diversity here: I didn't discuss role play, for instance, or building, or landscaping and decorating, or or or . . . None of us is in a position to define SL as "this" or "that." What we can know is that its enormous diversity is a delicate and complicated thing that somehow magically coheres and "works." And I think it's just common sense to be aware of that before advocating for really dramatic shifts in the focus here. A first step, though, is acknowledging that complexity and diversity. And because we are all in bubbles (or groping isolated bits of the elephant, as Paul might prefer to put it), that can be difficult to see.

Everything in SL is consensual by definition, Paul. You know that! The elephant doesn't even use RLV.

Are you kink-shaming, Paul? 😮

In the broad sense, @Coffee Pancake, I don't think we're as much in disagreement as your response seems to indicate, because I've agreed that LL can, and possibly should, promote the sexual side of SL more than it does. What I've suggested is that it needs to do so carefully, thoughtfully, and strategically, mindful of the complexity of the SL social scene and its economy. That hardly seems to me a very controversial view? What I find a bit alarming is the implication in your response that, well, care, thoughtfulness, and a strategic approach built upon a recognition of that complexity is either unnecessary or even undesirable. Unless I'm misreading (always possible!), you seem to be suggesting that SL is already mostly about sex, and so a full-steam-ahead-and-damn-the-torpedoes approach to promoting sexuality on the platform is not only logical, but the best way to go. And I disagree strongly with this premise, frankly, that sex is "practically all people are here for." I am reminded, reading your response, of the parable of the blind men, each seeking to describe the elephant on the basis of their own limited and subjective experience of it. We all range around SL in our own little bubbles to be sure. If you're mostly here for sex, then, yes, sex is mostly what you're going to see. If you're here for the "art," or music, or dancing, or RP, then, surprise surprise, those things are going to comprise the majority of your experience of the platform. These bubbles overlap a great deal, obviously. If you're into sex, you probably are going to clubs and listening to music and dancing. And if you're into music and dancing, it's entirely possible -- maybe even likely -- that you're hooking up there. But to argue that music and dance exist here solely as a backdrop for the sex that may or may not result from clubbing is, frankly, nonsense. This particularly is an absurdity: SL is full of people who follow particular DJs or live performers: they go to the clubs where these play for the music, as well as for the social scene. Three of the DJs to whose sets I go weekly have a loyal band of followers who show up to nearly every set. The social scene is a part of the experience of course: you become comfortable in each of these coteries. But enjoying the company of familiar friends in the context of music you enjoy, even if romances and sexual encounters sometimes come out of these associations, doesn't make them "about" sex. That's like suggesting that RL coffee shops are notorious hookup joints because people often have first dates, or meet their Tinder pickups there. Yes, of course there are clubs that are primarily pickup places. If I go (as I very occasionally do) to Fogbound, there's a good chance I'll get hit on, maybe more than once. But at the places I go for music and dancing -- and I'm a very active clubber -- the talk is overwhelmingly in local, not IM, and, barring the occasional dirty joke, it's not about sex. I can say the same about the gallery openings I go to. I go to, generally, about two of these a week, and get invites to many more than that. And there is music, and dancing, and a crowd that can range from about 20 to upwards of 60 or more -- but the people are there for the art. Do these people also have sex, sometimes with people they've met at openings? I'm sure. But that's emphatically NOT the same thing as arguing that these openings are not ends in and of themselves, and serve only to help people hookup for sex. That's two of the bits of the elephant that I regularly grope; a third is more nebulous: the world of fashion, avatar customization, and what my friends often call "playing Barbies" in SL. I have a huge number of friends who spend a really large proportion of their time shopping, playing with mesh heads, hair, skins, and new clothing. And no, they are NOT doing so in order to attract sexual partners: they are doing it because it is, in its own right, fun. You suggest that the high placement of one particular set of sexual attachment is proof that sex is main draw, and economic engine of SL. I'm not going to deny, at all, that sex is a major component of the SL economy (or of activities here), but the fact that one particular garment rigged for one particular body by Addamsberry or whatever doesn't appear at the top of the list shouldn't obscure the fact that avatar customization and fashion are huge here. We have no way of knowing for sure, obviously, but I'd lay money that women's clothing easily outperforms sexual aids and equipment in terms of economic impact. Do you go to the sales and events? I do, and I know what I see there, and where the crowds of buyers congregate. And it's not in front of the vendors for sex toys. None of this is to suggest that I disagree that sex is important here. Of course it is: remove it, and you undoubtedly kill this platform. But remove fashion, or music and clubs, and you'll drive a stake into its heart just as surely. Removing the ability to do SL photography might not outright kill SL, but it would severely disfigure and hobble the place. All of this is just to say, again, that SL is a really complex machine, and reducing it, as you seem to, to the status of virtual hookup joint is mischaracterizing it badly. Explore other parts of the elephant, Coffee -- or don't, but at least acknowledge that your subjective experience of it is not the only one. And actively endeavouring to turn the entire place into a sex site will destroy it. The day that the enormous diversity of SL becomes nothing more than a backdrop to people hungrily seeking out sexual partners is the day that I log out for the last time. And I won't by any means be the only one.

Content Warning: Wall o' Text I've been thinking about whether or not to respond to this thread. The larger topic -- the place of Adult content in SL -- is one that has popped up many, many times before. I don't know that it's ever been addressed, though, with the kind of nuance it really deserves? I'm not sure I can provide that, but I do want to push back a little against what I think is the somewhat reductive notion that LL doesn't promote, or even hides, Adult content out of shame or embarrassment. I really don't think that LL is "ashamed" of adult content. That would suggest that the corporation possesses a moral compass, and is capable of feeling embarrassed by something. As a corporation, LL, no less than any other company (and probably moreso since it was sold), exists to produce a profit. It wants to be "successful," and that's really the only metric that counts for corporations and businesses. Adult content is unquestionably a major part of what success LL has achieved with their product, and the company knows that. But they also know that the adult side of things is just one part, however important, of a larger and very complicated picture. And because SL, on the level of both the social and economic mechanisms that makes it work, is so very complicated, LL is (rightfully, I think) wary about pulling too hard on the levers in one direction or another, because the wrong step could mess up the dynamic that has, miraculously, allowed SL to work well for 20 years now. Part of the problem is, of course, that LL is battling against a reputation that SL has (largely unfairly) garnered over the years as a refuge for "sex-obsessed weirdos." This isn't news, and I don't think that there is any question that that reputation, however unjust, has impacted on SL's allure for some who might otherwise be interested. What seems on the surface to be "shame" is, in large measure I think, an attempt to combat that perception. But there are other issues here too. What happens to social scene and the economy if there suddenly IS an enormous flood of new residents who are here primarily for pixel bumping? How many places that are not now pickup or hookup joints will suddenly, de facto, become that? What happens to the residents -- and there are a great many of us -- who aren't here primarily, or at all, for sex, romance, and relationships? How are we likely to respond to the increase in pickup lines from people who have been essentially told that SL is "about" sex, and whose expectation is that that, of course, is what we are all here for? What happens to an economy that needs to suddenly and dramatically shift gears from the incredibly diverse range of goods now on offer, to suddenly servicing a flood of new residents whose main interest is likely to be . . . what? Mesh genitals and sex animations? More places to have sex, with a concomitant reduction in the number of Moderate or General places where that doesn't happen? How does that impact on the retention of people who may spend most or even all of their time away from sex places? These are all hypotheticals, of course; I don't know what would happen, and, more to the point, neither I suspect does LL. Much would depend on how this was handled, and how successful it was. It's possible that some of the new residents might be attracted initially by the sex, and stay to enjoy the rest -- but a great many won't. We've all encountered the half-naked noob wandering around and aimlessly hitting up anyone they see for the "sekksies." There's going to be more of that unless care is taken. My point, though, is simply that SL is a really delicate ecosystem, and that this needs to be handled with care. The answer is probably carefully worded and targeted advertisements, that make it clear (among other things) that SL does feature opportunities for sexual exploration, but that that is not its only, nor even primary function: to imply otherwise is essentially false advertising, and will lead to problems when new residents engage with older ones who aren't interested. And there would need to be better policing of how the ratings systems apply to ensure that those who don't want to be exposed to sexuality aren't. So, yeah. By all means let's sell SL as a place where one can hook up for sex. But do so employing a thoughtful marketing and implementation strategy, so that what we have isn't broken as a result. As for animation systems . . . well, sure. I don't do sex, but I do go dancing a lot, and it would be nice to have couples animations for that which don't feature my arm puncturing the chest or shoulder of my partner. But I'd hazard a guess that improving animations is not the highest priority here for most people. In addition to fixing things that are currently broken, or not very effective, I think most people would be more interested in more realistically-behaving clothing and hair, with collision whatevers, and so on. But that's just a guess.

What???? 😮

Absolutely. I'll go further: any "content" published by anyone can be "fairly commented on by all." Goods on the MP can be reviewed, or I can write a blog about it. When I hold an exhibition of my photographs -- nothing whatsoever to do with LL -- it gets reviewed. I want it to be reviewed! Critical commentary is a good thing. Comments here can be critiqued, for that matter. But critique has to come from a place of being well-informed if it's to be useful. And the point is that there are still people in this thread who seem to think that this was produced as promotional material by or for Linden Lab. And it wasn't. Drax's perspective on Second Life is his own. He tends to focus on "feel good" stories about relationships, or about those who have been liberated by SL from disabilities and other impediments to their RL. I think that mostly he makes SL look "good," in the sense of "worthwhile" and "valuable" -- even though, personally, I think he could take a more critical view of the platform and the company. The point is that this was not designed as promotional material. It's nature is more documentary than PR. So if you're going to critique it, fine -- but critique it on its own terms, and not because it's not something that you think it should be. Don't criticize a chair because it's not a very good table.

Ouch. Poor Drax . . . I think there's some confusion here, maybe, about the origin and intended function of this movie? I don't have any "inside information" on this work, but I do sort of know Drax (although not in any very personal way), and a bit about where he is coming from (as must many others here -- he's hardly low profile), and I think perhaps that a lot of the criticism above derives from a misunderstanding about his relationship to LL and SL. Draxtor is not a Linden. He's not paid by LL, nor does he, so far as I'm aware, work directly in collaboration with them. And this film is not a "promotional piece" commissioned by LL: it's the work of an independent creator who actually has done a great deal to promote SL over the years on social media, but who has done so on his own, following his own lights. The movie will be available, I presume, on social media, but all that LL is doing, that I know of, is showing it at SLB20, where it will be seen almost exclusively by those of us already here. It features, on the basis of this trailer, some of his own preoccupations with and areas of interest in SL: there is no evidence for (and I'd be very surprised if this were the case) any sort of "official" input into the piece from what we might laughingly call LL's PR department. I actually quite enjoyed the trailer, but I get why some don't, and I also agree that it's not a good "promo" for Second Life. But I'm pretty sure that that is not its intended or primary function. At least not in the sense that a PR or advertising person might understand by the term "promotional." I suppose it's valid to ask why this is being showcased by LL, but I think critiquing an independent content creator because his work doesn't function, as some apparently think it should, as a good advertisement for LL is maybe a bit unfair. Are we going to start going through the content produced by other SL residents on Flickr, YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook, and deride or denigrate it because it's not doing LL's job for them? I'm going to tag @Draxtor Despres on this, because I think he should be given a chance to have his say about it.