Melita Magic

Dresden Ceriano wrote: The fact that you seemed to take issue with what he said, exposes more about your own insensitivity to certain people's misfortune that anything else. ...Dres And then "I didn't say certain groups, I said certain people and by that I meant Griffin... because, last time I checked, Griffin was a certain person. If you read any more into it than that, then you only have yourself to blame....Dres" And you are the one Dres who instead of calling Griffin by his name, for some reason chose to say "certain people's misfortune" (not "a certain person's misfortune") making him part of a larger group (than one person.) Which group - avatars? When he'd just discussed homophobic taunts? "Exposes" is a strong word Dres, (what was I supposedly exposing about myself?) and "certain people's misfortune" does not seem to be referring to one exchange Griffin had (which in its first telling was vague and not worded the same as in the second telling.) It seems to be speaking to a much larger idea than that. So you weren't calling me a homophobe then...great. Thank you.

Dresden Ceriano wrote: Melita Magic wrote: Certain people's misfortune? I figured the insinuation I had some sort of bigotry would be next. Sorry but his original tone seemed to almost mock what I had said, he's said he didn't mean it that way, I've replied to that, and apolgoized for the misunderstanding. Also the full quotes shed different light on things. The original telling left out where it happened, what was the conversation about and what in full was said. The original telling sounded like some kid mouthing off to him. We've all been trolled online...that's not the same feeling as being blasted. I'm not even gonna dignify the insinuation part Dres. Think what you want to. Insinuation? Bigotry? What on earth are you talking about? Honestly, Melita, I can't figure out if you really believe the crap you're spewing or if you're just trying to pick a fight. You misinterpreted Griffin's post and, in turn, ended up seeming to belittle the threats made to him. You can't damn threats made to some people, while calling threats made to other people "figures of speech" without coming off sounding insensitive... I don't know how I can state this any more clearly. ...Dres You don't need to state it more clearly. I understood the first time that you said I am insensitive to "certain groups" - that isn't accusing me of bigotry? What is it implying then? You know nothing at all about me or you'd know how ridiculous that sounds to anyone who does know me. Don't want to rehash what I have already said, so will leave it there. As I said...think what you want to.

Madeline Blackbart wrote: Griffin Ceawlin wrote: ??? Here's what was said TO ME in one exchange, Melita. It took place during a discussion about gay rights, specifically about the lack of workplace protections for LGBTQ persons. Direct quotes: "just kill yourself now _____, or whatever your gay moniker is...nobody cares anymore" "lol, I thought I told you to go kill yourself..lol..isnt there some electrical cord in a garage you can use to end your misery?..ours too?...eat the crud you shovel loser....hope you dont get fired next week because of your sexuality...lol" Please explain to me how that's comparable to "oh go jump in the lake" or "ooh I'm so mad I want to kill you". I can see your point of view here as those things aren't comparable in the sense that the two sets people have diffrent mindsets. One actually meaning to do harm and saying it with sincerity and the other not meaning it with senserity and more jokingly. The issue is that the two set can have the same result. When things are said over the internet especially (probably more so) there's an issue of misinterpratations which obviousally happen (as shown with my response to melita who then took my misunderstanding quite badly) these can lead to situations where the person whose reading it can take it the wrong way. So in that sense the can end up tragically comparable in results. I'm not saying you can never say those things. I'm also not saying I've never said those things. I'm saying you should be careful when doing so especially on the net. The attitude well I never killed myself over it can be considered somewhat flippant in the sense that some people have even over the jokes. Basically while I don't think being overly politically correct is the answer I think that common sense and sensitivity toward others (aka a gray area between saying whatever and over political correctness) is what we need to strive for. Yes that first line is exactly what I meant, thank you. Who it has to do with was not the point. Intent and tone is more the point. Also in the cases I was thinking of the bullies knew the victims and their weak spots. Just how to hurt them most and they did. You got exactly what I meant, thank you.

Dresden Ceriano wrote: Melita Magic wrote: Madeline Blackbart wrote: Melita Magic wrote: Griffin Ceawlin wrote: Not sure how I was being flippant. Nor how being told that as a gay person I should kill myself, and by what method, becomes a "figure of speech". Oh come on. At no point is encouraging someone to kill themselves a figure of speech EVER. You never EVER know what someone is thinking. I had a friend whose friend killed themselves they didn't even suspect the person was upset like that because they always seemed so happy. To assume that we kpnow someones mental state is great folly at best. Suicide isn't a game. I can almost understand it in person as you can sorta tell if the person is joking. though it is a sick joke at best. But over the internet or on a forum it's very hard to tell if someone is serious and it's deffinatly enough to push someone over the edge. You honestly can't tell if that's going to happen so that kind of "figure of speech" should NEVER EVER be said to someone on the internet. It's simply not funny and very ignorant. Except that wasn't what I said Madeline. Way to emotionally load things. I'm sorry but his saying thos things did NOT bother him when I was talking about cases in which people WERE bullied into suicide is a bit narcissistic. And you're turning it around on me to claim I'm the one who said saying those things is nothing? Isn't he the one who implied so? I interpreted what he said as something along the lines of 'Sticks and stones...I've had people tell me to kill myself and it didn't bother ME' - yes, to me, Madeline, Griffin, and Dres, and whatever other sock puppets - that's being flippant. I suggest you go back and read what Griffin said, because, as far as I can tell, Griffin seemed to be agreeing with you and adding the point that, when someone says something like that, to a complete stranger on the net, they have no way of knowing whether or not that person is in a weak enough state to actually take them up on their suggestion. Then, he went on to state some examples of what people have told him that would fall into that category, while pointing out that he wasn't that fragile, but suggesting that the statements told to him were just as incendiary whether he was or not. There was absolutely nothing flippant about it. The fact that you seemed to take issue with what he said, exposes more about your own insensitivity to certain people's misfortune that anything else. ...Dres Certain people's misfortune? I figured the insinuation I had some sort of bigotry would be next. Sorry but his original tone seemed to almost mock what I had said, he's said he didn't mean it that way, I've replied to that, and apolgoized for the misunderstanding. Also the full quotes shed different light on things. The original telling left out where it happened, what was the conversation about and what in full was said. The original telling sounded like some kid mouthing off to him. We've all been trolled online...that's not the same feeling as being blasted. I'm not even gonna dignify the insinuation part Dres. Think what you want to.

Griffin Ceawlin wrote: Melita Magic wrote: I interpreted what he said as something along the lines of 'Sticks and stones...I've had people tell me to kill myself and it didn't bother ME' - yes, to me, Madeline, Griffin, and Dres, and whatever other sock puppets - that's being flippant. Except that's not at all close to what I said. Which is why I was careful to say that was how I interpreted it.

Griffin Ceawlin wrote: ??? Here's what was said TO ME in one exchange, Melita. It took place during a discussion about gay rights, specifically about the lack of workplace protections for LGBTQ persons. Direct quotes: "just kill yourself now _____, or whatever your gay moniker is...nobody cares anymore" "lol, I thought I told you to go kill yourself..lol..isnt there some electrical cord in a garage you can use to end your misery?..ours too?...eat the crud you shovel loser....hope you dont get fired next week because of your sexuality...lol" Please explain to me how that's comparable to "oh go jump in the lake" or "ooh I'm so mad I want to kill you". Because that wasn't as it originally read here and I can't read your mind. I can only go by what was posted. because I was talking about people who had already been bullied, in real time, one by people they knew and who knew them to be depressed, and had committed suicide over it, and I thought you were talking about Second Life chat group trolls. You had said one remark was to the group and one was to you, both sounded very immature and very much hate speech but, the intent - was it the same. It does sound like I misunderstood YOUR intent, which, really, this whole thread seems to underscore what Madeline just said which is that misunderstandings are too easy on the internet. Ugh, I'm very exhausted but was trying to say from the start, that words can be used as weapons and have been in the past. That it's possible for a trolling and a threat to be the same, and I gave instances. When you said "who's to say who is fragile" that seemed to set a dismissive tone to me. I do apologize if that was not the intention. There are too many instances of people playing fast and loose with other people's lives and feelings which do end in tragedy. Some of those have happened via internet or because of web cam. I'd include the guy whose web cam was aimed at him without his consent and the result was his suicide. I agree with the point that hate speech and "go kill yourself" should never be said. I don't even like the phrase "get a life." Every person living has a life, and every life has value. Anyway the first way you quoted htem didn't sound like the way you just said it Griffin...even if those did take place in SL those are way beyond the pale. My point about a figure of speech is that oftne people say something ilke "go take a long walk off a short pier" or "go jump in the lake" or even "I could murder you" but don't really mean that. To me it's important to distnguish tone language and intent precisely so as NOT to trivialize when someone does mean it and does hurt someone. Griffin the person who said those things to you sounds mentally ill...and yes now tha I have seen the ful l quotes thoes could have deeply upset someone.

Madeline Blackbart wrote: Melita Magic wrote: Griffin Ceawlin wrote: Not sure how I was being flippant. Nor how being told that as a gay person I should kill myself, and by what method, becomes a "figure of speech". Oh come on. At no point is encouraging someone to kill themselves a figure of speech EVER. You never EVER know what someone is thinking. I had a friend whose friend killed themselves they didn't even suspect the person was upset like that because they always seemed so happy. To assume that we kpnow someones mental state is great folly at best. Suicide isn't a game. I can almost understand it in person as you can sorta tell if the person is joking. though it is a sick joke at best. But over the internet or on a forum it's very hard to tell if someone is serious and it's deffinatly enough to push someone over the edge. You honestly can't tell if that's going to happen so that kind of "figure of speech" should NEVER EVER be said to someone on the internet. It's simply not funny and very ignorant. Except that wasn't what I said Madeline. Way to emotionally load things. I'm sorry but his saying thos things did NOT bother him when I was talking about cases in which people WERE bullied into suicide is a bit narcissistic. And you're turning it around on me to claim I'm the one who said saying those things is nothing? Isn't he the one who implied so? I interpreted what he said as something along the lines of 'Sticks and stones...I've had people tell me to kill myself and it didn't bother ME' - yes, to me, Madeline, Griffin, and Dres, and whatever other sock puppets - that's being flippant.

Oh please. Stop with the overloaded arguments and twisting what was actually said and with the emotional rhetoric - all three of you. If you're not going to discuss things in a calm and grown up manner? What is the point? Yes it was flippant to reply to my post about people being bullied into committing suicide, with what someone once said to a group in a chat room. There actually is a difference between a figure of speech like "oh go jump in the lake" or "ooh I'm so mad I want to kill you" vs. actively encouraging someone to kill themselves, and an actual terrorist threat. I made the distinction because that is very pertinent to the original post. The intent, the seriousness and the actual level of threat involved. As well as the actual language used. What he described was a general hateful comment made in a group chat, NOT to him in particular, as well as what could also be described as a bigoted or hateful remark. It is not the same as adults systematically manipulating a fragile and depressed teen girl who they actually knew in real life, into hanging herself. It is not the same as being on live chat with a person who is saying they want to kill themselves and telling them to do it. Frankly, attempting to sandbag your position by bringing sexual orientation into it is a bit much. Has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Griffin Ceawlin wrote: Not sure how I was being flippant. Nor how being told that as a gay person I should kill myself, and by what method, becomes a "figure of speech". Oh come on.

Dillon Levenque wrote: Melita Magic wrote: . A lot more people have been asking my av for hugs lately. Bragging or complaining?:smileywink: For once, neither. LOL

Griffin Ceawlin wrote: Melita Magic wrote: It's too bad the people who encourage fragile people to commit suicide and the like, aren't punished. Who's to say who's "fragile"? I'm often "encouraged" on certain forums to kill myself, as both a member of a group ("KIll yourselves, gays!!!") and personally ("Don't you have a spare electrical cord in the garage that you could hang yourself with, _____?"). Now I don't think I'm particularly "fragile", but those people couldn't know one way or the other. I know of an SLer who somewhat regularly "encourages" people that she disagrees with politically to kill themselves. And this is somebody who rails against alleged "trolls" and "bullies". Hopefully you can see the difference between a figure of speech and someone actively encouraging suicide. For instance, the time(s) on the net when a person was on live webcam, threatening to kill themselves, clearly in despair, and the others in the chat room laughed and egged him on - so, he did. But I was actually thinking of the case in which the bullies knew the victim. They knew she was depressed, they even used real life information against her in their bullying campaign. And, she hung herself. It seems you are being at least a bit flippant about that possibility. You may be tough with a lot of life experience but there are many instances in which the bullies know they are dealing with a fragile personality and it only activates their latent sadism. To them, that person is a toy and if they off themselves, to the bully it's just an example of the Darwin award. They will even say things like that. As internet law fine tunes, laws that already exist regarding newspaper and telephone will come into play more often. I think that might be what Dillon was alluding to with the original post or theme of the thread. For instance, I don't think it's sought very often but theoretically people on a forum, even though anonymous, can potentially be held liable for libel against other persons. The same would logically hold true of terrorist threats, bullying, and harassment. The law just hasn't caught up yet. The www is still the wild wild west.

Awe Thor wrote: Melita Magic wrote: What is the most disturbing to me is that this wasn't a kid. It was an adult posing as a kid. I wonder how often that is the case? Probably fairly often. Surely not! Awe . . . except in SL of course, where it is apparently acceptable to claim diminished responsibility because you lisp. Or in forums when a person imitates a pepper pot.

Wow...didn't know about this. A lot more people have been asking my av for hugs lately. I haven't noticed any problems though.

My first, knee jerk reaction would be "good." People should be accountable for attempting to cause others distress. What is the most disturbing to me is that this wasn't a kid. It was an adult posing as a kid. I wonder how often that is the case? Probably fairly often. The first clue it was a hoax and not someone local was the use of the word "motor" instead of "car" although it could've been someone who was an expat so, I'm sure the school had to err on the side of caution. Freedom of speech has its limits, and most places online are not protected by freedom of speech. Most forums and sites are privately funded, though the law for the internet remains murky. It's too bad the people who encourage fragile people to commit suicide and the like, aren't punished.

Very sorry for your loss, Sephina.

I feel your pain. Sorry to hear of the frustrations. I never believe when people tell me something I have never done before "will be easy." The first time is never easy, unless it's a first time catastrophe. And I am not good at teaching myself. I could only ever teach myself things I had years and nothing but free time to learn...things I began as a child. Even then, those skills dropped off once I hit adulthood. Hope it will work out for you. ETA: As always I replied without having first read the thread...only if it's a thread with a linear style or Q & A only do I read first. I was being literal when I said "I feel your pain," not echoing Porky's post. I'm heaving a big sigh along with you. I wish I could afford a new computer also, so that I could use newer viewers much easier when I want to.

I just wonder why, lately, the ads have been skewed toward 'peep shows' and ads in Arabic. I'm trying to figure out who it thinks I am.

Aside from what's been said, is it possible you have been clicking on a pose ball that is meant to be part of a couples or group dance? If so then those might not work until others have hopped onto the other pose balls with you. Some places have blue and pink pose balls around the dance floor but those are usually for couples. Those usually take two avatars before they will function. Some places do that because it's much much cheaper (sometimes, even free) to rez one of those, than to buy the entire dance system.

Congratulations on your new PC, Czari! Enjoy it!

Hope everyone had a good Fourth! Thank you for the many eloquent and moving posts in this topic. I had intended it to be a list of places to go in SL and/or plans for RL for 4th celebrations, but got so much more. Thank you. Czari said: "...have said a prayer of gratitude for the brave men and women who have fought, some died or were injured, so we have the freedoms we enjoy in this country. ...we may not all agree on the current wars - but I think we Americans can be thankful for our troops." Well said! Freedom is not free. Those who first fought to establish independence from tyranny fought without proper supplies, uniforms or equipment. And ever since for such a young country especially, we can be proud. Dillon said: "By the rude bridge that arched the flood, Their flag to April’s breeze unfurled, Here once the embattled farmers stood, And fired the shot heard round the world. The Battle of Concord (and of Lexington) took place in 1775; it was a bit over a year later that the Declaration was signed, making the Revolution irrevocable. We should never forget that line about farmers. We were farmers, and/or shoemakers, grocers, fishermen, or coppersmiths. We were people: husbands, wives, children. We went up against what was considered one of if not the most powerful nations in the world. Not for gain. Not for conquest. For the right to prosper or fail on our own terms." Well said also! Exactly...just ordinary people who had had enough. July 4 is when we remember their sacrifices and those of all others who have contributed to make this nation what it was and is. No one is saying our nation is perfect or has not had its mistakes but, the same is true of every other nation on earth. And we have many many reasons to celebrate and stand proudly. Especially that those people who were among the discounted in their home nations, set out to find a better life, and did not settle for less. I won't be shamed out of celebrating my nation's birthday, not by anyone. I would be shaming my ancestors in so doing. Tari said: "We made it even better by visiting an assisted living type place that houses primarily veterans, their spouses and hospice. We have a family member there we visit frequently. On the 4th, as we usually do, we take them cards, pictures and artwork the kids have made. My kiddos also thank each and every one of them and shake their hands when able. Because they fully understand all the sacrifices generations before them had to make, so they could be here." That is a marvelous idea and one I hope many will imitate. My home town had fireworks at the veterans' center; I wish I could've been there. Bless you for thanking them in person and on such a fitting day. What a wonderful thing to teach your children, as well. I'm sure the residents of the home delighted to have their smiling faces around them. Tari also said: "The 4th isn't just celebrated in the US, though. It's actually celebrated a lot of places worlwide, on some scale. It's rarely bad to introduce traditions to others and celebrate globally." Thank you. In the USA we take in the celebrations of the various groups from around the world who make this their new home. I have wished people Happy Cinqo de Mayo, visited Oktoberfest, gone to an Italian street fair in celebration of a saint, etc., etc. Because we are citizens from all over the world. Tex said: "We go to an amazingly HUGE 4th party every year. He owns a construction company and puts a giant flag on a crane and has a Flag Raising ceremony. He and his family go up in a crane overlooking the backyard. It's really great. While the flag is going up, this song is blasting through the speakers. Very patriotic. (I'm not overly patriotic, but it's a moving experience)"I am not normally overtly sentimental nor a crier, but that would have made me cry. Something very powerful about those lyrics. On a loudspeaker? Goosebump city. What a way to celebrate. Czari also said: "My family being largely from Ireland, this song has always touched my heart, and is a reminder of the the people who gave up everything in their own countries and came to America with the dream of a better life (also one of my favorite Celtic groups - Emerald Rose):" What a beautiful song. First I have heard about that group and first I had heard the song. The lyrics are so poetic and depict the struggle so many endured, just to have what so many take for granted: freedom, a roof and regular meals, and a hope to make their dreams come true. America did then and still does represent that for so many. Which is why I can never take those who bash her, too seriously. Kenbro, Orca, and Malanya: thank you also, for participating in the spirit the topic had intended - one of inclusion and celebration. One of happiness. One thing I have been busying myself with over the past few years is family history research. It has been quite a journey. My earliest known ancestors came to the continent around the time of the Mayflower. (Some - Dutch - may have been here before it; unverified as yet.) Others, in the early 19th century. I was amazed to find how many of their stories were interwoven with various points in American history - every war, even the Salem trials. What they fled, what they found here. A human tapestry. It's their stories I celebrate as much as anything else. That is why I do not feel I need anyone's permission to announce the holiday or ask for discussion; or to celebrate the holiday; or to enjoy doing so. I hadn't intended to wax sentimental but, I don't take well to attempts at shaming...especially ones as clumsy as some posted here. Those I have named above thank you sincerely for celebrating the holiday publicly. And yes I will say it - God bless the USA.

Yay us!

Aw! Well I hope you will have a good Fourth of July anyway Orca! Thanks for the reply! Happy Bday USA! :matte-motes-big-grin-wink:

Hello SLers! Happy Fourth of July! Do you want to celebrate with fireworks on the beach? Go sailing, swimming, ride the ferris wheel while watching fireworks on demand? Free snacks? Free July 4 gifts, including themed hats and balloons? Then you might want to stop by at Mermaid Beach. Mermaid Beach fireworks display - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Binneed/50/188/27 The fireworks display can be run by anyone (click the How To sign)...the show is about 7 minutes long...relax in the lawn chairs or at any other vantage point on the beach to see it. Here is one viewing station, with free Patriotic theme snacks like a real American picnic, and even chairs for "tiny" avatars too. Also if you find the gnarled trees on the beach there are 2 chairs for petite avatars in their branches. (Those are always there.) You can also take in a cartoon with friends and family. A short patriotic cartoon starring Popeye. July 4 theme. You can view it in the middle of the ocean, with the beautiful sunset behind you, on Mature land: July 4 cartoon, Mature land, mid ocean cinema - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Binneed/157/190/24 Or you can view the same cartoon on G rated (kid safe) land, in my Movies in the Park outdoor cinema. July 4 cartoon, G land - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Hippoden/40/185/26 Both cinema locations have treats and the G rated one has some of the same July 4 themed freebies. Feel free to also wander around nearby Dallows, which has some things placed here and there for your holiday enjoyment! Including, an outdoor grill, in a lovely garden setting. Everyone is welcome - I only ask, no nudity, no selling, no advertising at all, and please be at least civil to other guests. (And common sense applies too, heh.) Above all though, enjoy and stay as long as you please! Lady Liberty is waiting to see you!

Happy July 4, everyone! You don't have to be American to celebrate July 4 - you just have to like a good party! :) July 4 celebrates the birth of what became the United States of America. Today most Americans celebrate with a family get-together, some "American" outdoor picnic foods, and viewing fireworks - on Tv or in person, at a park. Some of us celebrate in Second Life too! What are your plans for this July 4 - in Second Life or in first life? I will post some things to do in the Events thread, but everyone is welcome to stop by my Mermaid Beach and Movies in the Park (both in my Picks), and wander around my Dallows land as well, to see a snapshot of ways we celebrate. Are you decorating your own land in SL? Do you know of fun places to go? Post them here! And have a great Fourth!

Good post Perrie. We were all new once! To reply: When I joined I was hoping to find more ways to learn. I wanted to make fashions for SL. Years later I still have not found a single person willing to devote time to teaching me. That's fine; they are not here on their free time to help strangers I'm sure! I also expected (apart from finding places to learn, and more to the point, individual tutors) to find more people in a given place. I expected to find people easily who could answer whatever oddball question I had while learning SL. I expected myself to learn how to use SL easier than I was doing, becasue I don't think I am a slow learner or a stupid person. I expected things to be less frustrating. I expected a place I could go when bewildered (found that in the forums and Forum Cartel) or someone to run a situation by (different than learning; this is more like social anthropology for virtual worlds.) "Should I click yes on that little yellow window that says it just wants to take $5L for charity?" for instance. At first I expected it to be clearer 'what to DO' - I found that in events at Caledon. I remember going to early dance contests in different clubs, trying to earn a few $L. I remember going to Caledon events and meeting some genial people. I did not expect hearing a constant ping! ping! ping! as many group announcements, group IMs, bite invitations, and advertisements came my way while logged in. I did not expect everyone on my friend list to see me log in and log out. I eventually learned how to deal with (change) all of those things. I did not expect to find fun, and friendly people, and helpful people, and compassionate people, and open people, in need of compassion themselves; I did not expect SL to be as poignant at times as it was. I did not expect the "Is SL a game or a virtual world" debate to still be going strong after years. I did not expect to find so much imagination, creativity, artistry and skill in one place, and all for free. I did not expect a lot of things, but I'm glad I stayed.