My experiment to leave the Marketplace behind

Josh Susanto · March 29, 2012

>If it's related to this discussion I don't see why you shouldn't post the direct link to that post here,

In fact, please do.

You can tell the Lindens I pushed you into it, absolutely.

Ela Talaj · March 29, 2012

Hmm... I guess it is possible that you're a better developer than I am because I've never participated in or was a lead on a project that would not bring a mile-long CSR's list from QA. Yet whatever your qualifications are, you cannot really say that the commerce team "put out code that [is] THIS bad" because you haven't seen their code and neither have I. In fact I more and more lean to an opinion that the commerce team does not have adequate testing facilities and is forced to release without much QA at all.

As for the rest, I do not believe SL was originally intended and designed for in-world shopping. There will always be an enormous difference in time spent between shopping in-world and shopping in the marketplace. That is why the marketplace should be the main shopping channel while in-world activities would remain mostly what SL was intended for - social interaction.

Deja Letov · March 29, 2012

Ela Talaj wrote:

Hmm... I guess it is possible that you're a better developer than I am because I've never participated in or was a lead on a project that would not bring a mile-long CSR's list from QA. Yet whatever your qualifications are, you cannot really say that the commerce team

"put

out code that [is] THIS bad"

because you haven't seen their code and neither have I. In fact I more and more lean to an opinion that the commerce team does not have adequate testing facilities and is forced to release without much QA at all.

Absolutely! And you should get a list of issues to fix if things are working in the QA department. That's the whole point, it would never even get past QA to release it in this state. So maybe Ill take that back...I wouldn't get fired, my QA team would for deeming it worthy. And no I haven't seen their code, I don't need to, I can see the result of their code. I can see that they had issues with load balancing straight out the door without seeing their code, I can also see they had database issues when merchants listings got crossed with eachother. There are many other issues I can "see" in their code without actually having to see their code. I've been a developer for close to 20 years, I know the industry very well and I know about bad code. Trust me, you don't have to see the actual code to know it's bad...or at the very least not tested. And there is absolutely no reason a technology based company of this size doesn't have at least 2...maybe even a whopping ONE person to QA for them. Hell if any of them are watching this thread, I would be happy to throw a QA process sheet your way guys!

Deja Letov · March 29, 2012

Sera Lok wrote:

Deja Letov wrote:

By the way if anyone wants to read the long boring blog post I made about this originally, send me an IM in world and Ill send you the link, I don't want anyone thinking I'm spamming my blog. It's just a bit more indepth on why i feel that way I do.

If it's related to this discussion I don't see why you shouldn't post the direct link to that post here, but I understand your concern.. I'd love to read it. (as time permits, sadly there is not enough time to read everything i want to today, there is RL too!)

Well, it's a little more than only not wanting to spam. It's not a main stream blog, in fact I'm pretty sure that the only people that read it are me and my two dogs. So I'm a little shy to post it...er scared...some of you guys scare me. LOL But ok, this is a direct link to my rant.

http://www.slbusinesstrends.com/sl/index.php/its-in-our-power-to-change-our-second-life/

Sera Lok · March 29, 2012

Ela Talaj wrote:

In fact I more and more lean to an opinion that the commerce team does not have adequate testing facilities and is forced to release without much QA at all.

This, yes, definitely

Sera Lok · March 29, 2012

Deja Letov wrote:

Sera Lok wrote:

Deja Letov wrote:

By the way if anyone wants to read the long boring blog post I made about this originally, send me an IM in world and Ill send you the link, I don't want anyone thinking I'm spamming my blog. It's just a bit more indepth on why i feel that way I do.

If it's related to this discussion I don't see why you shouldn't post the direct link to that post here, but I understand your concern.. I'd love to read it. (as time permits, sadly there is not enough time to read everything i want to today, there is RL too!)

Well, it's a little more than only not wanting to spam. It's not a main stream blog, in fact I'm pretty sure that the only people that read it are me and my two dogs.

So I'm a little shy to post it...er scared...some of you guys scare me. LOL But ok, this is a direct link to my rant.

http://www.slbusinesstrends.com/sl/index.php/its-in-our-power-to-change-our-second-life/

Awesome It's up on my screen to read when I return tomorrow.

Josh Susanto · March 29, 2012

>in-world activities would remain mostly what SL was intended for - social interaction.

I'm not persuaded that it was intended mostly for social interaction, but only because I'm not persuaded that it was intended mostly for any one thing.

I think we can agree, though, that it was definitely not intended mostly as a huge shopping mall, which is what it was becoming at one point.

Darrius Gothly · March 29, 2012

Deja,

Great post, and clearly you've tapped a vein that runs through all of us deeply.

I have two main product lines .. Teleporters and Slide Shows. (I had a third but LL successfully killed that. LOL)

The Slide shows are priced fairly low, but sell well and mainly on MP. I believe it's because people just look at competitors offerings (which is one thing MP truly excels at) and opt for the median priced product. Also they check reviews, another benefit MP has over In-World shopping. But lately I've noticed a slowly growing trend in people coming to my in-world store to buy them. I have demos set up and people can truly see how they work. From what I can tell, folks that come to my in-world store looking for a slide show almost always purchase before leaving. I haven't a clue on the view/buy ratio on MP but my sense is it's not nearly as high as in-world.

The teleporters are one of those things that I absolutely believe you MUST try out to determine if you like it or not. The range of performance found in the product niche is amazingly wide. You've got everything from "roll the dice and pray" to "the best ever". So buying one without actually riding it just seems .. crazy. Nevertheless I get a few sales a month from MP for my teleporters.

The point of all this is that I keep brain dancing across the features present on MP and wondering how we can provide those same benefits to our in-world stores.

With MP, we are essentially shoulder to shoulder with our competitors, so you really have to be on your A-Game to rise above the crowd. With in-world stores though, we operate nearly in isolation from our competitors. Because there is that layer of insulation and invisibility of other competing products in-world, we generally see some pretty low quality stuff for sale in-world. People that don't do a lot of research and take the time to check out all the products available wind up frustrated and just buying from wherever they happen to be.

My ideas for how to provide that "side by side" comparison with competitors (and taking for truth that competition is a good thing in the long run), I've considered such things as Buyer's Guides with a User Contributed Review process similar to the "Angies List" website. Complications arise with the ability for people to create alts by the ton, so assuring that reviews are real is a lot more difficult, but I'm sure given some creative brainstorming a solution could be concocted.

I have also contemplated adding a new type of product to MP ... call it a Virtual Product. Rather than deliver a product to you in-world when you purchase, a Virtual Product delivers you to the store when you purchase. When you arrive, your purchase is handed to you immediately upon arrival .. and you arrive right in the proper location so you can also examine accessories, related products, etc. A Virtual Product does not actually have ANY product uploaded to DD or in a Magic Box; the customer is essentially buying a Landmark and an automatic delivery when they arrive. You could do this now by delivering an Attachment that provides a clickable link that takes you to the store location and "talks with" the store vendor system to deliver the product to the wearer when they arrive. It would take some work, but give me a couple days and I'll have it done. (LOL j/k)

At the very least, I would like to see the in-world location for a product much more prominent than it is now (that tiny little link located .. umm .. somewhere on the listing page). As it stands now, anyone shopping on MP could be totally oblivious to the fact that there even is a virtual world that these things work within. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has received emails from "customers" wanting me to deliver my products to them via UPS, or to send them sales brochures or arrange in-person demonstrations. (Yeah, right .. I'll get that teleporter to you by next week ... NO SWEAT! *facepalm*)

To summarize, I think the answer to improving in-world traffic and participation is to more tightly connect MP with in-world stores. As it stands now they almost operate as friendly competitors. (And not competitors in the positive sense.) I believe the synergy that could come from tying them together, each one exploiting its own particular advantages and handing off to the other on those things it doesn't do as well ... I think that would turn into a wonderfully powerful and beneficial partnership.

(Side thought, MP and In-World seem to have a similar relationship to each other as Residents have with LL. We both need each other, but doggone it we keep acting and pretending that we don't.)

Josh Susanto · March 29, 2012

>.I wouldn't get fired, my QA team would for deeming it worthy.

That angle basically works for me, too.

I don't need to see the code to know that it's not doing what it's supposed to do.

If I did, the rest of that argument would seem to be that LL just needs to publish the code so we can all see it and decide that the fact that it doesn't work doesn't matter.

End users shouldn't even have to concern themselves with questions like whether to blame coders or blame QA.

Nothing should be released that should even allow such a question to come up.

Surely it is someone's job to make sure things don't get released that don't work.

Someone.

No?

Darrius Gothly · March 29, 2012

Sera Lok wrote:

Ela Talaj wrote:

In fact I more and more lean to an opinion that the commerce team does not have adequate testing facilities and is forced to release without much QA at all.

This, yes, definitely

And I'd like to add .. they seem to be "forced" to include features, exclude features and overall target the product/software they release in ways that fly in the face of all logic. It's almost as if someone higher up the food chain is looking at their spec or possibly just getting an oral explanation of how they intend it to work .. and then for some reason I cannot fathom erects roadblocks and insists on changes that literally hobble the product's behavior.

I don't know how much autonomy the Commerce Dev Team truly has, but there have been times when it truly feels like Josh's mythical "Malefactor Linden" is in reality "Manager Malefactor Linden".

Deja Letov · March 29, 2012

Darrius Gothly wrote:

To summarize, I think the answer to improving in-world traffic and participation is to more tightly connect MP with in-world stores. As it stands now they almost operate as friendly competitors. (And not competitors in the positive sense.) I believe the synergy that could come from tying them together, each one exploiting its own particular advantages and handing off to the other on those things it doesn't do as well ... I think that would turn into a wonderfully powerful and beneficial partnership.

Darrius, that is fantastic insight and I agree. I would love to see what people can do to integrate the MP and inworld better. Like I said, I'm not opposed to using the Marketplace, I'd just like to see it be secondary to in world not just from a profit standpoint but from a life of second life point. If you get that working...I wanna come see!

Deja Letov · March 29, 2012

Darrius Gothly wrote:

Sera Lok wrote:

Ela Talaj wrote:

In fact I more and more lean to an opinion that the commerce team does not have adequate testing facilities and is forced to release without much QA at all.

This, yes, definitely

And I'd like to add .. they seem to be "forced" to include features, exclude features and overall target the product/software they release in ways that fly in the face of all logic. It's almost as if someone higher up the food chain is looking at their spec or possibly just getting an oral explanation of how they intend it to work .. and then for some reason I cannot fathom erects roadblocks and insists on changes that literally hobble the product's behavior.

I don't know how much autonomy the Commerce Dev Team truly has, but there have been times when it truly feels like Josh's mythical "Malefactor Linden" is in reality "Manager Malefactor Linden".

This is actually REALLY common in the technology industry. You get the exec's up higher wanting you to do something that you as a developer KNOW shouldn't be done, but you are forced to do it anyway. I deal with that almost daily at my job. But...I've also made sure not to release it until it's been tested...and tested...and...oh ya...tested.

Josh Susanto · March 29, 2012

So it's not the executive's fault for not wanting to know if something is impossible, and it's not the developer's fault for not taking the responsibility to tell him?

Wow, I guess nothing is anybody's fault.

Next time someone just straight-up reaches into my pocket and takes my wallet, I'll try to remember that.

Darrius Gothly · March 29, 2012

Hey, you're the one that's threatened on more than one ocassion to just dump your entire line of products on the SL community as full perm freebies. Clearly you feel it has no value, so why are you bitching about losing something that, by your own threats and statements, has no value to you?

Deja Letov · March 30, 2012

Josh Susanto wrote:

So it's not the executive's fault for not wanting to know if something is impossible, and it's not the developer's fault for not taking the responsibility to tell him?

Wow, I guess nothing is anybody's fault.

Next time someone just straight-up reaches into my pocket and takes my wallet, I'll try to remember that.

Well that is you assuming that a developer didn't tell them. I can't tell you how many times I've told my boss "we really shouldn't do that it's to intense on our servers" or "let's do that next year instead of right now" only to be told "thanks for your input, do it anyway".

Josh Susanto · March 30, 2012

>Hey, you're the one that's threatened on more than one ocassion to just dump your entire line of products on the SL community as full perm freebies. Clearly you feel it has no value, so why are you bitching about losing something that, by your own threats and statements, has no value to you?

I care about SL's potential being wasted.

Imagine you knew someone who got a perfect score on his SAT's and then started huffing paint fumes every day out of the blue, explaining "but I have plenty of brain cells".

Wouldn't you try to help him, even if it made you look like a bit of a jerk to some people?

Josh Susanto · March 30, 2012

>Well that is you assuming that a developer didn't tell them. I can't tell you how many times I've told my boss "we really shouldn't do that it's to intense on our servers" or "let's do that next year instead of right now" only to be told "thanks for your input, do it anyway".

I haven't had what I would consider to be a programming job, but I think I understand the dynamic from working in the medical and insurance industries.

For example...

I worked for a guy I was warned was the world's angriest insurance agent.

After long discussions with various people authorized to discuss it with me, we determined that what I needed to do for a specific client was to cancel the auto insurance policy and issue a new one.

The boss exploded and threw some stuff around and slammed his fist on the desk.

So I told him that I would follow his instruction not to cancel and reissue, but that I would leave a notes in the system indicating I did not agree with his decision. And I put a note to myself in the file indicating that if he later got upset that I had not canceled and reissued, I was to give 2 weeks notice, whether I had anything else lined up or not.

So when I arrived at work months later and he threw a wad of paper at me as I came through the door, I thought it could be about this thing, one of dozen comparably f'dup things, or just that his wife and kids weren't answering phones to be yelled at.

He was upset that I had not canceled and reissued. So I was able to work around his fist shaking and whatnot to get to the file. When I finally let me open it, I pulled out the notes, laid everything on top of the file cabinet for him and, as he stopped cold, dumbfounded, I went to my desk and printed my 2-week notice as I had planned to do months before.

After 2 weeks, I still hadn't found another job, but I walked and I didn't look back.

And as hard as things were after that, I know that I absolutely did the right thing.

Czari Zenovka · March 30, 2012

Deja Letov wrote:

Czari Zenovka wrote:

Dora Gustafson wrote:

A agree a 100 percent and I never disagreed, let us bring back the trade inworld.

I never understood why anyone would buy an animation, a skin or a house without seeing it or testing it first, like we do inworld

What I have found interesting is a sale I will get on the MP and the customer shows up on my shop visitor's list so they apparently came into the shop to check out the item, but then purchased it on the MP. I know the MP is convenient for many people to shop when they can't be in-world, or if they are lagging, etc., but I wonder what the psychology is of coming to the store, then purchasing on the MP. The only thing I can think of is they want to see it (agree totally with you, Dora) and maybe think about it before purchase.

I've asked this question of my customers and it's ironic but I was told by a few that they thought as merchants we would prefer it. They were being nice and said they knew the search on the marketplace was ranked by sales and said they were trying to help.

That's interesting. Thank you for responding to my musings on this, Deja. Someone else on the thread suggested another reason is that customers can rate our products on the MP and/or provide feedback if they get poor customer service.

Czari Zenovka · March 30, 2012

Sera Lok wrote:

Medhue Simoni wrote:

Oh, and, I have always created all my items just outside my store entrance. This was a conscious decision to allow my customers to chat with me, and to watch as I create things. Much like Deja, I spent almost all my time in SL creating, so doing it right there for any1 to sit with me is a good thing for me and my customers. It is tough to keep a fast paced workflow with customers constantly chatting with me, but I'm used to it now.

This is cool

One of the merchants I refer to in either this thread or another (starting to lose track...lol) designed jewelry and did her work also near the entrance to her store. I always thought that was an excellent idea; however, I am one of these "I need total quiet and concentration to work" people and I am HORRIBLE at multi-tasking. I will likely not be able to do all my creating in my shop, but perhaps stay there when I'm doing something that takes less concentration.

Now the other merchant I mentioned did not create in her shop but when not creating she was there greeting customers, rearranging items, etc.

Darrius Gothly · March 30, 2012

Josh Susanto wrote:

>

Hey, you're the one that's threatened on more than one ocassion to just dump your entire line of products on the SL community as full perm freebies. Clearly you feel it has no value, so why are you bitching about losing something that, by your own threats and statements, has no value to you?

I care about SL's potential being wasted.

Imagine you knew someone who got a perfect score on his SAT's and then started huffing paint fumes every day out of the blue, explaining "but I have

plenty

of brain cells".

Wouldn't you try to help him, even if it made you look like a bit of a jerk to some people?

Under what conditions do you consider constant insults, constant harassment and constant accusations as "helping"? I was brought up to believe that it takes a balance of carrot and stick to motivate someone. Using only the stick simply results in a welt a bruise and a bad attitude the next time you come around.

Rya Nitely · March 30, 2012

Josh Susanto wrote:

Imagine you knew someone who got a perfect score on his SAT's and then started huffing paint fumes every day out of the blue, explaining "but I have

plenty

of brain cells".

Wouldn't you try to help him, even if it made you look like a bit of a jerk to some people?

Yes I do know someone like this - you're a good creator with potential and the huffing of paint fumes is the constant ranting and whining you expose us to everyday.

And for someone who posts so often, I don't understand how you haven't yet learnt to do quotes properly. Just click on reply and then look for the word 'Quote', which is on the right side, next to Spell Check. Then just delete everything above the line that you don't want in your quote. Don't delete the bottom line or your reply will become part of the quote. I hope I helped you with this, and that I'm not looking too much of a jerk to some people.

Maybe I'm just bored :matte-motes-bored:

Josh Susanto · March 30, 2012

>Under what conditions do you consider constant insults, constant harassment and constant accusations as "helping"?

I've already told them what they need to do.

Mocking them publicly is intended to help them realize they NEED to do it.

>I was brought up to believe that it takes a balance of carrot and stick to motivate someone.

The carrot is that if they start doing a couple of things differently, they can all still have jobs in a year or two.

That's more than anything I can offer them personally, and it should be plenty for them.

But apparently not; thus: the stick.

>Using only the stick simply results in a welt a bruise and a bad attitude the next time you come around.

That's up to them. If they turn out ot be a bunch of occupational masochists, there's not much we're going to do about it anyway.

Deja Letov · March 30, 2012