Legal Action Against Copybot Viewer Site?

[Dustine Underwood]

There is a certain site where users release copybot version of items and other creations. They even have a downloadable copybot viewer. This site also allows users to upload our PSDs for any templates released ont he marketplace. I do not know if anything can be done about this site but i want to make sure everyone is aware of it. I would love to be able to get our comunity to take some form of legal action against the site in question but I dont know how. I seriously hope Linden Labs can also aid in this as well.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

The only "legal' action one can take is to file a DMCA take down to the site that holds the copyrighted material.  The original creator of the material is the only one who can file the DMCA take down request.  By law, the owner of the site must remove the content.  If the owner does not do that then the filer of the take down can move into the legal system for further action.  Users who are aware of the copyright infringements can best help by notifying the original creator of the copyright infringement and let them file the DMCA take down claim.  Other than that there is not much we can do...........boycott the site and refuse to purchase content that we are sure came from the site is about all.  But knowing where the content was obtained is impossible so that's a dead end.

The way the DMCA law is written LL's hands are tied until the content enters SL and the original creator makes the DMCA take down claim is made.  The best way to handle this is to notify the creators of the site and let them do what they must do to take care of the problem.  Making a thread here is getting a little close to violating LL's policy about harrasment or "naming names".  I know you haven't crossed that line but you're on pretty thin ice policy wise.  Be careful since you could wind up getting into trouble trying to do the right thing (I doubt it would happen to you but it could....interpetation is key).

[Dustine Underwood]

I just wanted to make others aware and perhaps found out how to handle it. I made sure not to name the site or its url so hopefully this will stay up for others to see and if they come across any other sites they will know what to do.  Thank you for the advise and I hope it will help others ^^

[Dustine Underwood]

Also it costs 200 US dollars to take down our content..sooo any other Merchants want to help?

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Where did you get that $200 to file a take down?  It's free to file a DMCA take down notice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act

You might be seeing sites that fill in the actual form (or write the letter) and legal advice........they do charge a fee.  But the creator can file the claim themselves without paying anyone.  Of course if the take down is countered with and appeal then legal fees might be necessary to take the issue to the legal system.......which is the next step for complete resolution.  Protecting your legal rights to digital content can be expensive (especially for somthing like SL where the financial gain is small).  But if someone slanders you in real life that, too, can be expensive once it gets to the courts.

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

The only "legal' action one can take is to file a DMCA take down to the site that holds the copyrighted material.  The original creator of the material is the only one who can file the DMCA take down request.  By law, the owner of the site must remove the content.  If the owner does not do that then the filer of the take down can move into the legal system for further action.  Users who are aware of the copyright infringements can best help by notifying the original creator of the copyright infringement and let them file the DMCA take down claim.  Other than that there is not much we can do...........boycott the site and refuse to purchase content that we are sure came from the site is about all.  But knowing where the content was obtained is impossible so that's a dead end.

The way the DMCA law is written LL's hands are tied until the content enters SL and the original creator makes the DMCA take down claim is made.  The best way to handle this is to notify the creators of the site and let them do what they must do to take care of the problem. 

Making a thread here is getting a little close to violating LL's policy about harrasment or "naming names". 

I know you haven't crossed that line but you're on pretty thin ice policy wise.  Be careful since you could wind up getting into trouble trying to do the right thing (I doubt it would happen to you but it could....interpetation is key).

---

Sadly Peggy, although LL Forums has a policy about "naming names" being a violation and that making unfounded accusations is a big no no... we have seen in recent threads that LL Moderators condones this action even when the violator has AR's filed against them for this violation on the forums.

LL lets names be named depending on whom is doing the naming of names.

So if you are not a friend of LL's then Peggy is right... dont violate any of LL's posting policies or else LL will punish u.

[Veronika Garzo]

Sadly Peggy, although LL Forums has a policy about "naming names" being a violation and that making unfounded accusations is a big no no... we have seen in recent threads that LL Moderators condones this action even when the violator has AR's filed against them for this violation on the forums.

LL lets names be named depending on whom is doing the naming of names.

So if you are not a friend of LL's then Peggy is right... dont violate any of LL's posting policies or else LL will punish u.

 

There is of course a distinct difference in making unfounded allegations and issues emanating from a thread which calls into question the integrity of a contributor.  Moderators in my opinion are fair and do a pretty good job of filtering out most of the infringements.  Violators come in many forms and if those who make written observations and remarks to threads open up an avenue for exploration, it would be well to ensure their own back yard is spotless, particularly when making statements in public places.  I also note in some threads such an embittered stance against SL, it permeates throughout some members' contributions.  One has to wonder why such unhappy residents remain?

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Veronika Garzo said:

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Sadly Peggy, although LL Forums has a policy about "naming names" being a violation and that making unfounded accusations is a big no no... we have seen in recent threads that LL Moderators condones this action even when the violator has AR's filed against them for this violation on the forums.

LL lets names be named depending on whom is doing the naming of names.

So if you are not a friend of LL's then Peggy is right... dont violate any of LL's posting policies or else LL will punish u.

 

There is of course a distinct difference in making unfounded allegations and issues emanating from a thread which calls into question the integrity of a contributor.  Moderators in my opinion are fair and do a pretty good job of filtering out most of the infringements.  Violators come in many forms and if those who make written observations and remarks to threads open up an avenue for exploration, it would be well to ensure their own back yard is spotless, particularly when making statements in public places.  I also note in some threads such an embittered stance against SL, it permeates throughout some members' contributions.  One has to wonder why such unhappy residents remain?

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I don't know how many times I've seen posters make those unfounded  allegations to threads or subjects that they disagree with.  It sometimes seems like a sport most posters take part in........"How can I turn this thread or topic into an attack against Linden Lab or the thread/topic starter?"  If it can't be conveniently turned against LL then it's "lets take pot shots at the poster.  Let's call the poster a Linden Lab shill (or Linden employee alt)".  It's easy to blame it on LL's lack of consistancy when those people are only looking for reasons to fault LL for some reason or another........for practically everything.  The content theft problem.......it's LL's fault because they don't make it impossible for content to be stolen or copied.  Or it's LL's fault because they don't ban the copiers and thieves.  And, in almost every case that I've seen the poster of those allegations has little or no knowledge of the nature of digital content and what can be done to prevent it.  They have little or no knowledge of the laws concerning digital content theft (DMCA).  Yet, they want it fixed.  They tell people that it's so easy and it's LL's responsibility to protect their content.........and when someone points out some facts that person is accussed of being a mole for LL.  The war begins and often a perfectly productive thread gets deleted or otherwise moderated.  And finally, we get:

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"So if you are not a friend of LL's then Peggy is right... dont violate any of LL's posting policies or else LL will punish u."

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That is a copy/paste directly from both Veronika's post and mine at the beginning of this post.  It's absolutely unsupportable and without any facts to back it up.  It's inflammatory and false.  It implies dishonestly by LL and/or the poster.  I have been called an LL shill and a Linden's alt.  I've been moderated and "punished" in the forums for posts I've made.  I've questioned the moderation on one occassion (not publically though........why compound the problem?  Ultimately, the decision was justified.  I've been guilty of some guideline offense each time I was moderated......minor offenses but offenses just the same.  I see a great deal of consistancy in LL.  Just because I don't like a post does not make it a violation of a guideline.  Just because I agree with a post does not make it okay to be posted.

I started to respond to Toysoldier last night............but I was tired and really didn't want to get into it at the time.  Veronika's reply prompted me to jump.  I agree with her 100% on this.

[Porky Gorky]

I am not sure it is worth the time or money to get infringing content removed from this website. Copybot viewers and other stolen content from SL can be found on a variety of websites, some accessible to the public, some requiring membership and login which is easily obtained. I can also think of 2 IRC servers that host channels where copybot based viewers and stolen content are traded freely not to mention bit torrent and news groups. These are just sources I've found as an interested party i.e. someone learning how these thieves operate to better protect myself in SL and to understand their practices better. I dread to think how many other sources are available to the copybot community that I am not aware of.

Removing stolen content from 1 website will limit the flow temporarily but it won't make much difference in the grand scheme of things. Unless you're willing to launch an assault on multiple fronts and invest a ton of time and money then this is a war that you, or any any collective of SL merchants cannot hope to win.  

[Veronika Garzo]

That is a copy/paste directly from both Veronika's post and mine at the beginning of this post.  It's absolutely unsupportable and without any facts to back it up.  It's inflammatory and false.  It implies dishonestly by LL and/or the poster.  I have been called an LL shill and a Linden's alt.  I've been moderated and "punished" in the forums for posts I've made.  I've questioned the moderation on one occassion (not publically though........why compound the problem?  Ultimately, the decision was justified.  I've been guilty of some guideline offense each time I was moderated......minor offenses but offenses just the same.  I see a great deal of consistancy in LL.  Just because I don't like a post does not make it a violation of a guideline.  Just because I agree with a post does not make it okay to be posted.

I started to respond to Toysoldier last night............but I was tired and really didn't want to get into it at the time.  Veronika's reply prompted me to jump.  I agree with her 100% on this.

 

I cannot abide nor condone bigotry and dual standards of any kind.  It's quite extraordinary that a poster would accuse LL of such ludicrous and unfounded acts, when the very subject is 'unfounded allegations'!  It leaves me speechless!!!  I also feel compelled to say that I personally have no 'attachments' or 'favoured' position and also have been moderated for a comment made in the past. It brings to mind the expression 'Methinks he doth protest too much!'

[Bouttime Whybrow]

copybot is a somewhat over blown issue imo.

yes things do get stolen and resold. but there is a practical limit to what a user can really do with it.

i view it as just part of the cost of doing business.

i also wonder how many people who rail about copybot use pirated programs to create their content.

like all these people around here who talk about using photoshop really shelled out a couple of thousand dollars for it?

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

"VERONIKA state...

That is a copy/paste directly from both Veronika's post and mine at the beginning of this post.  It's absolutely unsupportable and without any facts to back it up.  It's inflammatory and false.  It implies dishonestly by LL and/or the poster.  "

-----------------------

It is absolutely supportable and proven as the posts made are still on the threads which were LL Forum Posting violations whereby I filed AR's against it for making unfounded accusations and NAMING NAMES... and the fact that the AR's did not end up with LL Moderator removing the violating posts.... FACT!

End of Story.

So yes... LL does allow violation of Forum TOS rules depending on who is doing the violating.  FACT!

[Toysoldier Thor]

Your right Porky....

Unfortunately for most SL Creators the copybotters that take another SL Creators / Merchants content and resell it right in clear sight of all have very little risk of being punished or even stopped. 

>   In order for LL to even take action to stop the clear violator - LL need a DMCA first even though its 100% clear that he / she is a copybotter.  I look at the major violation last month when some of the amazing builds from several respected builders like from the Looking Glass team were found to be selling on copy-botters sim.  All the merchants / creators saw it, we all went to the sim to get an inventory of all this Italian copybotter had stolen before he locked the sim from any access.  Yet until the DMCA is filed, this copybotter goes merrily on his way.

>  For most SL creators, the cost of any extended legal action against a copybotter would very quickly overrun any profits made from the content that was stolen.  Since in SL we are dealing with Micro Revenue / Profit per sale, one bill from a lawyer for most would wipe out any profits.  The copybotter knows that and knows generally most wont do anything.  If there is too much pressure, the ALT poofs away and a new version shows up.

So I agree with the statement bouttime made (i believe) that copybot attacks are moreso one of the costs of doing business in SL.  Sad but true.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Because you reported a thread or post, it automatically should be removed or moderated in some way?  That, my friend is not the way it works at all.  Because you did not report a thread or post and it gets removed is also not the way it works.  There is descretion.  Context.  The moderator simply not seeing things the way you think they should see things.  Naming names is not necessarily a violation........I named both you and Veronika in a single post just a little while ago.  I don't believe that simple act is a violation..........a mod may see it differently (and I completely understand that).  Naming and shaming is a clear violation in my opinion and if I reported the violation and nothing was done, then my guess would be "the moderator didn't see it the way I see it".  Not, "So in So Resident has 'friends in high places'".  There's absolutely no evidence to support that......none, zero.  That attitude runs rampant for some people here in the forums.  It's irritating for me but over the years I've gotten used to it.......and notice who are the chronic posters of such accusations.

When you don't have facts and you make statements that are opinions then expect a counter opinion.  Produce facts to back up your opinion when you make an accusation and you want to convince me.........you can't convince me with:

---------------------------------

It is absolutely supportable and proven as the posts made are still on the threads which were LL Forum Posting violations whereby I filed AR's against it for making unfounded accusations and NAMING NAMES... and the fact that the AR's did not end up with LL Moderator removing the violating posts.... FACT!

-------------------------------------------- 

Where's the fact?  It's merely stating your opinion, once again, without a single fact to support it.  It's not the "End of Story".

I guess I should say something to the subject of this thread.  We all scream and cry over content theft.  Someone just wondered how many of the creator's who comment constantly about pirated content using illegat copies of software to create the content that they are so concerned about being copied or stolen.  That's an interesting question that probably can't be answered...........but I, too, believe that there are a few creators who do use pirated copies of Photoshop.  PS is the most expensive image editing software package on the market.  Yeah there are legal copies that are offered to students and other groups at greatly discounted prices..........but it's really amazing to me of all the PS users there seem to be yet so few of them know how to work the program (a legal copy has a nice, well put together documented manual).  I just can't believe such a large number of PS users don't read, at least, part of that manual.....unless they simply don't have the manual (it doesn't come with pirated copy they are using).

Another thought that comes to my mind often is when someone accuses another of "copybotting" content that they, themselves, didn't create.  How do they know it's copied?  Because it looks the same?  Maybe it's the same pattern with different colors?  That's not proof......it's a guess.  A creator can't even tell for sure what has been copied and what was made completely independant of the creator's content.  A flowered texture will look like a flowered texture no matter who made it.........that's what the DMCA is for (to get the dispute into a court of law to make a fair judgement about "is it mine or did you steal it from me?").

How many of us have seen a cute little kitten (or puppy, or dolphin, or bunny, or......) on the Internet and set the image to our desktop wallpaper?  I bet many (if not most) of us have done that.  Did we look to see if the image was legally copiable for us to do that?  Did we even think about at the time?  Did we care if the creator of that image might have copyrights to the image?  It all liklihood we never gave it a thought.  And, if we did, we simply didn't care or thought of some justication saying to ourselves "the creator doesn't care because they put it on the Internet and know that people can copy it easily".

Content theft is a problem across the entire Internet.  The only law to protect that content is the DMCA.......that's after the fact and in most cases much too expensive to pursue.  No one has developed a way to prevent digital content from being copied.......if it can be displayed on your monitor, it can be copied.  So I'm not sure what can be done..........the only way I can do my part is to make sure I'm not guilty of copying.  In my opinion, that's what everyone should do.

[Toysoldier Thor]

Yup Peggy so hypothetically, lets say I making a posting in this thread that makes a statement / accusation about YOU and one of YOUR PRODUCTS on markeplace that I may believe are accurate.  Doesnt matter if my statement is correct or not.

The fact that I clearly mention YOU and YOUR PRODUCT and made an accusation (regardless of its accuracy)  without your permission in my posting... That is a FACT.  That is not an opinion.  I named names.  That is not an opinion... That is a fact.  I named YOU and I named YOUR PRODUCT.

The fact is that regardless of opinion of the posting I made, I would have violated LL Forum TOS rules of "not naming names" and "not making any accusation of a violation by another member of of the forum".

There is no opinions about that Peggy.  The posters that I AR'ed clleared MENTIONED ME and MENTIONED MY PRODUCTS on MP and made an accusation of them violating copyright.

Tell me where there is room for opinion??  No matter how you spin this to defend them...

FACT Peggy

That is what postings I ARed and that LL completely ignored and no punishment to the posters for these factual violations.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

You don't know if they were "punished".  I was "punished" for a post I made a few weeks ago.  I know I was punished and so do the mods..............whoever AR'd the post does not know. 

My post was not "naming and shaming" though.........it was another "clear" violation of the guidelines.  Your facts are not facts.  No matter how you want to spin it.

[Ilyra Chardin]

I also see it a ost of doing business (RL stores contend with shoplifters all the time) and as a cost of being a consumer as well.  Caveat emptor has a whole new dimension of meanings on marketplace, where people frequently set up shop and sell freebie full perm items or copybotted items for a fee.  In a world where licensing is largely ignored and new products or items are copied as fast as they're released, I'm not sure that there is much that you can do.  The volume of sellers and products out there far exceeds any governing body's ablity to keep up with the rule-breakers and take action.

I pay for my software, i take pride in my building and, most of all. I have fun doing it.  

I try not to think about the other stuff and can only hope (maybe delude myself into believing) that in the end karma will out.

Lock only keep honest people out.

Cheers

 

[Veronika Garzo]

The very best policy is try to stick to the facts and not to try to enroll other unwitting contributors, or to use 'snippets' from others postings to illustrate or infer collusion to support your perspective.  The thread is now getting completely lost to your personal crusade, and the very best way to deal with it is to ignore your incessant pushing of your more than opinionated feelings and annoyance. 

This thread is about copybotting, not about you or your issues with Linden Labs or any other forum member.  If you feel you have been wronged then take the matter up with them directly, and stop visiting your bitterness and personal frustration on the rest of us.  We are talking about copybotting in this thread and I for one am not interested in discussing anything else other than that.  If you don't want to talk about the thread............move on!

[Josh Susanto]

The two matters are not unrelated.

Any policy, applied with no appreciable consistency, amounts to the same thing as no policy.

And with effectively no policy where one policy is stated to exist, what are we to be expected to think, say, and do regarding the other stated policies?

Expecting users to follow any better example than what LL sets for them is expecting way too much.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

"The two matters are not unrelated.

Any policy, applied with no appreciable consistency, amounts to the same thing as no policy.

And with effectively no policy where one policy is stated to exist, what are we to be expected to think, say, and do regarding the other stated policies?

Expecting users to follow any better example than what LL sets for them is expecting way too much."

-------------------------------------------------------

I'm lost.  The two matters are not unrelated in what way?  What does copybotting or digital content theft (which is the subject of the thread) have to do with what?  Are you talking about Toysoldier's and my little disgreement on whether or not the forums are fairly and consistantly moderated?  Besides that not haveing anything in common with the subject of the thread, the two matters are totally unrelated......totally.

I think it all started because I cautioned the OP to not take it too far with this web site (or whatever) that is his concern.  I said it was not over the line but close to very thin ice.......one that could get the OP into hot water when he was simply trying to do the right thing.  That's when the derail got going I guess.......Toysoldier made a statement about moderating being only on those who don't have some inside track with LL (or something simlar).  I don't agree and stated so (after another poster took the same stand on the statement).  It's a derail with absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

Maybe you can tie the two together for me..........I'm seriously intriqued on how copybotting and forum moderating are connected.

 

[Porky Gorky]

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Bouttime Whybrow wrote:

copybot is a somewhat over blown issue imo.

yes things do get stolen and resold. but there is a practical limit to what a user can really do with it.

i view it as just part of the cost of doing business.

 

---

I agree. I don't get copy-botted anywhere near as much nowadays as I barely add any new content. During the previous 5 to 6 years though I have been targeted often by individuals and groups. I've had over 100 DMCA's successfully actioned by  LL and I also have had a fair few that have failed as the thief counter-filed and I chose not to take it any further, Also some instances where LL failed to action it full stop. As you said though, after a while you accept it as a fact of doing business here, the same way you accept the fact that a LL policy  change or "improvement" could seriously affect your business at any given moment.

So despite my obsessive battle that I waged against content theft in the past I was still successfully ripped off. So did it hurt my bottom line? I don't think so. There are a lot of factors that go into being a successful merchant in SL. Building good quality content is only one of them. Equally important is knowing how to present and market the content as well as knowing how to get yourself to the top of inworld search and the MP to gain the required exposure. In my experience the average content thief lacks these skills.

Without good exposure you're not going to sell squat in SL or deal any noticeable damage to my business.

That being said, I can think of a couple of instances where content thieves have targeted top quality designers and driven them out of SL altogether. You spend thousands of hours of your life creating fantastic items and someone comes along and rips you off in a matter of minutes, then puts that content on the MP with full perms at a fraction of the price. It's heartbreaking for some people and the thought of carrying on creating content only to be ripped off again is enough to make them give up all together. That's a real shame. You need to tough skin to survive and thrive as a merchant long term in SL and some people can't manage it. They take it it personally rather than just a fact of doing business here. 

 

[wrable Amat]

Compulsive buying due to name and marketing should be your money maker.

They only copy  the product due to it mass popularity, which is nice because it means more people are putting a shelf life on their products and updating more over just  selling the same old lamo for 5 years...I love to see a shop change in product line and  always reinventing them self then the people who been hawking the same stuff for years.Just lowering the price.

[Rene Erlanger]

---

Ilyra Chardin wrote:

I also see it a ost of doing business (RL stores contend with shoplifters all the time) and as a cost of being a consumer as well.  Caveat emptor has a whole new dimension of meanings on marketplace,

where people frequently set up shop and sell freebie full perm items or copybotted items for a fee.

 In a world where licensing is largely ignored and new products or items are copied as fast as they're released, I'm not sure that there is much that you can do.  The volume of sellers and products out there far exceeds any governing body's ablity to keep up with the rule-breakers and take action.

I pay for my software, i take pride in my building and, most of all. I have fun doing it.  

I try not to think about the other stuff and can only hope (maybe delude myself into believing) that in the end karma will out.

Lock only keep honest people out.

Cheers

 

---

That sort of activity is less likely nowadays....as shopping traffic has moved towards Marketplace. They'd have to pay rents or tiers to set up their Store...and the very nature of the products they're trying to sell, won't allow for  in-your-face type advertising to bring attention to themselves. It would almost certainly have to be done through Groups....that feed off stolen content. It really wouldn't be a profitable venture....and wouldn't last long either.....hence the 3rd party websites and other venues.

[Josh Susanto]

>Maybe you can tie the two together for me..........I'm seriously intriqued on how copybotting and forum moderating are connected.

They are related because, in terms of what LL actually does, they seem to have different sets of rules for different users. 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

On the copybotting, LL follows the law provided by the DMCA.  On moderating it's their "law" the follow and their law gives them wiggle room with "discretion".  However, LL adheres quite solidly and consistantly to their "law" about disclosure.  The don't allow residents to illegally disclose private information (that is one of the few things that will get someone permabanned very quickly........if you don't believe it give out someone's person information without consent.  That would be bye bye Josh).  Because of their stance on disclosure they will never tell anyone if, why or when they've taken action about anyone.  Here on the forums, in-world or any other place.  They even removed the old "police" blotter they used to post and that was so vague there was no way you could figure out who got what punishment for what offense........but they removed it just to make sure nothing personal was revealed.

I don't see a different set of rules for different users.  You report someone's post here (or AR that person in-world) and you see "nothing".  You won't see it because they won't devulge that information.  I've been moderated more than just a few times over the 6 years I've been active on the forums.  LL has never told anyone or given anyone any information about what I was moderated for, why I was moderated or what the told/did to me because of my "offense".  Just because you don't see or hear anything doesn't make it a fact that someone did not have action taken against them.

Sorry, just didn't tie the two subjects together.  I knew you wouldn't because there is no tie.  You know it but, for whatever reason, you feel moderation is connected to cobybotting.  You don't understand copybotting and the DMCA or you would know that LL is doing what they can to fight the problem.......and that's really not much because there is little anyone can do to prevent a thief from being a thief (short of closing SL down to all but folks who pass a background check by the FBI or something like that).  Moderating is something else entirely........something LL has complete control over.  They can restrict what we say to the point that we can't say anything, or they can let the forums be a free-for-all.........they land somewhere in the middle (even a little to the "free-for-all side at times).  What I've learned is that LL won't allow the forums to be a perpetual food fight (not since they abandoned the real forums about 3 years ago anyway).