Marketplace shouldn´t allow freebies or dollarbies anymore

[Rene Erlanger]

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Tari Landar wrote:

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I'm fairly certain that folks who do close down profitable venues don't like being called dumb. In fact I'd likely wager money on that. Personally I don't give a rat's left nut what you want to call me for closing down something profitable, but I do respect other merchants' right to not feel the same as I do

I can tell you at least one of the reasons I closed down a profitable business-because I couldn't be in sl often enough to run it myself. Could I have let my husband, or a friend, or even a group of friends run it? Perhaps, but there are no guarantees.

I had stuff going on in real life that was, at least slightly, more important than profit. I know, hard to believe, something that means more than money...true story though

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So did I and for 7-8 months too....but the businesses were profitable, so why should I close them? I could see that from transactions reports and the lindens available to pay LL Tiers each time. I knew that at some point I would return to SL...I.just didn't know how long it would be.

Unless you're terminally ill, it's just dumb closing something thats accumulating you profit over time....as it's easy enough to monitor offlne. The moment you have to start paying Tiers from your own pocket, then you'll know things ain't so rosey in Second Lifeville.

[Tari Landar]

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Rene Erlanger wrote:

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Tari Landar wrote:

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I'm fairly certain that folks who do close down profitable venues don't like being called dumb. In fact I'd likely wager money on that. Personally I don't give a rat's left nut what you want to call me for closing down something profitable, but I do respect other merchants' right to not feel the same as I do

I can tell you at least one of the reasons I closed down a profitable business-because I couldn't be in sl often enough to run it myself. Could I have let my husband, or a friend, or even a group of friends run it? Perhaps, but there are no guarantees.

I had stuff going on in real life that was, at least slightly, more important than profit. I know, hard to believe, something that means more than money...true story though

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So did I and for 7-8 months too....but the businesses were profitable, so why should I close them? I could see that from transactions reports and the lindens available to pay LL Tiers each time. I knew that at some point I would return to SL...I.just didn't know how long it would be.

Unless you're terminally ill, it's just dumb closing something thats accumulating you profit over time....as it's easy enough to monitor offlne. The moment you have to start paying Tiers from your own pocket, then you'll know things ain't so rosey in Second Lifeville.

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Does it really make you feel superior to continue to call names and make off the cuff remarks about other merchants simply because they choose a different path, or make different decisions?

I don't think it's dumb at all, nor did I when it was a choice I made. I find that opinion to be quite sad to be honest. If I intended to stoop down to that level, I could, but why bother? I know why I made the decision, and I don't regret it one bit. I also know why some other merchants make the decision. My guess is they likely don't regret it either.  But then, I prefer not making rash judgment calls on other people like that. Clearly not a decision you've chose, so...whatever tickles your pickle.

[Tari Landar]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Tari Landar wrote:

I was actually truly interested in why some people really hate freebies and their merchants so much they'd want to eliminate them. I'm still rather interested in that topic actually. Might need to start a new thread on it though, the topic is MIA.

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I am actually more interested in understanding why people think they are entitled to flood the market with any amount of free stuff, and in the process completely undermine the business model SecondLife is built on. 

With a continued drive for lower prices and more free stuff, the only thing that will be MIA is SecondLife itself. 

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Because they are told they can.

What makes others feel they are entitled to overprice? What makes us feel entitled to decide what any procing structure ought to be. What makes you, or any of us, feel entitled to decide what business model SL is built upon?

There are loads of questions that could be asked. I'm as curious as you are to the answers, to be honest. But that's not what the thread was about, lol. I originally opened it because I was actually curious about the topic(hence why I made that comment, and have continued to make it, lol).

[Tari Landar]

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

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There used to be more tin foil hats there.  Were those yours?

Market is short on Lime Green Hoodies too. 

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It's entirely possible. I think I angered someone and that's why they kept getting removed. Even when they were in the correct categories (because I'm not stupid, and once removed frmo one place for "incrrect placement", I'd put it somewhere else, not the same place it was, lol). Sigh, such is life. I do intend to put them back, eventually, lol. And to make sure this answer stays on topic...I'd make them very low priced, the way they always were, lol.

I'd make a lime green hoodie, but clothes are not my thing. In fact, I'm quite terrible at them. I can never get the shadows correct, lack of depth perception is a bigger hinderance than some realize, lol. (never stopped me from trying, you should see some of the monsterosities I've come up with over the years, haha). I've never been brave enough to actually sell them, but I once had a whole line of freebie clothes, figured the folks looking for them probably weren't looking for top notch

[Rene Erlanger]

Simple Mickey...in Second Life....Prims are king.

I would only cut tier, if I wasn;'t using all the prims I'm paying for.....but it's likely to go the other way, i.e add products, it's more likely i'm going ot have Tier up rather than Tier down. It also depends on the state of the SL economy in-world....if doesn't pick up and keeps on gradually declining...I might just stay put and do nothing for a while.

You don't have to teach me your business concepts...as i won't take it on board, because i don't regard you as one of the more successful or elite Merchants in SL. It's all gloss and no substance!!

If i want advice & ideas or know how the markets are doing...i know which people to approach in-world. Business folk with a long track record of success under any market conditions.

As long as my businesses as a whole, remain profitable...they remain open. The moment it goes the other way...i'll be stripping away the non-profitable units.

I'm really not interested in your methods of how you managed to get "Pastel Blue Seashells" on page 1 of www.Google.com......sorry!

[Tari Landar]

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Josh Susanto wrote:

>I've closed business in sl for other reasons besides tier not being covered. I know of plenty of businesses in sl, and merchants who have either downsized or had to close(some temporary, some permanent) but kept a presence on MP, for all sorts of reasons....... I'm still confused as to what this has to do with freebies being on marketplace and why they deserve to get the axe,------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, but how can you be sure it wasn't the freebies? I could have been that the sim was a bad astrological match for you. It could have been because you own a cat which brought bad luck upon you in RL. It could be because you did business with uncircumcised men without performing personal purification rituals before and after. It could have been the gay midget mafia finally finding a way to penetrate your tinfoil hat. OR, it could have been the freebies. Can you prove otherwise?

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ROFLMAO, lovely response Josh.

But I actually could prove it. Assuming one wants to see the zipper like effect from surgery, or perhaps the internal photos from tumor removal and remaining scar tissues from previous surgeries, or the after photos once the effects of said surgery have worn off but other unexpected side effects took hold, or simply doing a scan of my brain and noting there is significant damage to lobes that was never there before, and shouldn't be there now..but is...that and assuming I actually wanted to share those things with people, lol.

Sigh. Yeah sometimes rl sucks. On at least one occasion, this is why I closed up a perfectly profitable store. Why did I not let it run, despite the profit rolling in? Because I wasn't even sure I'd be alive six months from then, much less in SL. Sometimes life gives you a perspective you just can't ignore. Profit wasn't as important as quality of life, to me, back then. May sound dumb, because, well, who doesn't need money? But that's the honest truth. I wouldn't change my decision back then anymore than I'd change it now if I faced it again. Which is a likely reality for me.

I know it's hard to grasp for some, but money isn't everything....even when you have very little.

[Mickey Vandeverre]

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Tari Landar wrote:

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

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There used to be more tin foil hats there.  Were those yours?

Market is short on Lime Green Hoodies too. 

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It's entirely possible. I think I angered someone and that's why they kept getting removed. Even when they were in the correct categories (because I'm not stupid, and once removed frmo one place for "incrrect placement", I'd put it somewhere else, not the same place it was, lol). Sigh, such is life. I do intend to put them back, eventually, lol. And to make sure this answer stays on topic...I'd make them very low priced, the way they always were, lol.

I'd make a lime green hoodie, but clothes are not my thing. In fact, I'm quite terrible at them. I can never get the shadows correct, lack of depth perception is a bigger hinderance than some realize, lol. (never stopped me from trying, you should see some of the monsterosities I've come up with over the years, haha). I've never been brave enough to actually sell them, but I once had a whole line of freebie clothes, figured the folks looking for them probably weren't looking for top notch

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You need to get those tin foil hats back up - just ask Dakota what category they are approved for.  We need those here!

This thread has veered off topic, because there was no topic.  40 some odd pages later, and not one person has given a legit example of how Freebies are ruining their business.  So what if they are?  Then those people need to go manage some stuff.

In addition to not coming up with a legit example, someone keeps pluggin in all kinds of nonsense that they do not have a clue about.

It's easier that way.

Not making it?  Blame the next guy, or any other aspect you can come up with (Josh has some great examples)  And it makes you look better. 

Check my pics below and lemme know if you sell any more of those this week.  Workin' on my Oprah plan.

 

[Luna Bliss]

Tari/Mickey - I don't think MOST people believe freebies are the ONLY cause for SL's decline, nor do they believe they should be totally removed from SL. Please stop polarizing this discussion - whenever issues are debated there is almost always truth to both sides.

It's important for each merchant to evaluate if freebies might be contributing to the decline however, and make changes in their freebie policy according to what they determine. My best guess is that some freebies can help some businesses but it has become unbalanced, there are way too many freebies available, and so it is now causing harm.

I'm concerned about the newer merchant starting out - I just don't think they have a chance to compete against all the freebies filling up SL now. Sure there may be some niche markets like Josh's hole business, but for the most part new merchants have no market anymore. And yes there are many hobbyists who aren't interested in selling and happy that another person might even want their creation, but I still think a big draw to SL is the satisfaction of creating and selling your content, and when many of these newer people can't do that they get frustrated and leave.

Many creators of more complex items in SL think the freebie market doesn't concern them at all (because what they create takes so long to make that few would spend that amount of time and offer it as a freebie) - however If we don't do something to facilitate markets for the newer merchants then those developing mesh and honing their skills in other ways will have few people to sell to as SL continues to decline.

I don't see most merchants being willing to cut down on how many freebies they offer - in fact many seem delighted to offer volumes of freebies and low-priced content as loss leaders in order to draw in customers to their expensive items, and in the process totally wiping out markets for the new merchant.
The only solution would be for LL to limit the amount of freebies each merchant could offer on the MP.
It's a good thing to impose limits/laws on people sometimes if it preserves the whole - this freebie problem seems to be one of those cases.

[Rene Erlanger]

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

Simple explanation for that, Tari.

Rene and the old codgers at the downtown merchants meeting absolutely refuse to grasp that they are losing customers daily to the mall.  They do not have any data to clearly demonstrate what is happening....because well, they did not open a shop at the mall. 

Of course, this loss is none of their doing.  Not the merchants fault, of course.  They have bistro tables on the sidewalks!  for goodness sake.

So they spend a couple hours each morning discussing what happened.

The mall store owners have cut prices!  slashed!  Why?  because they are no longer having to pay for a downtown store.  How dare they!  This must be stopped!  We must make them out to be slime balls and **bleep** this in the bud!

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You're a complete dork with your story telling. I do have store on Marketplace...i've had one ever since 2007 during the SLEX days, i just don't rely on the chump change in the grand scheme of things.

I've monitored traffic to each of my In-world stores for over 4 years (with exception to my sabbatical period) and produced trend graphs to see where SL is heading...and also to see which areas need more promotion In-world

Unless we can make something that is innovative or popular (e.g like Meeroos)...I'm not going to make a song and dance about Marketplace. What you might classify as healthy profit....might be loose change to others....it's all relative.

I'm not willing to learn how to crack the method of being seen on www.Google.com...if it only yields a $100 or $200 of extra profits..it's not worth the effort! Sorry....to many others that might be their goal and they would be overjoyed...now if you that would translate into $1000's of USD, then I'm all ears and they would perk upl!

Lke i stated before....you're all gloss and no substance!

[Mickey Vandeverre]

 "Like i stated before....you're all gloss and no substance!"

 

Cool - the Kardashian thing is working then.

 

Google is King.

[Mickey Vandeverre]

Luna - I just don't ever recall thinking about Freebies.  Maybe I did one day, don't remember.  There was one time when I thought it a good plan to have people pay 5 bucks to join, but the economy changed that.  Totally against that now.

There might be a blurb around here somewhere when I was concerned about Freebies.  I just don't recall.  I like to have empathy (always an effort)....but I just have no experience with any Freebies messing with my business.

I do know, that several folks here bash my stuff.  As they do others.  When I see that....I see desparation, grasping at straws, fear, lack of confidence in product, some other stuff.

They need to keep their paws off my stuff....and deal with their own house.  This is just another example.  I tend to work isolated in SL because the spirit of cooperation is very slim.  Those merchants who are dissing people's stuff....are more of a threat to me, than Freebies.  That is not good spirit.  That will not help a newcomer. 

And I'm not talking about you - you're very sweet. 

[Tari Landar]

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Luna Bliss wrote:

Tari/Mickey - I don't think MOST people believe freebies are the ONLY cause for SL's decline, nor do they believe they should be totally removed from SL. Please stop polarizing this discussion - whenever issues are debated there is almost always truth to both sides.

It's important for each merchant to evaluate if freebies might be contributing to the decline however, and make changes in their freebie policy according to what they determine. My best guess is that some freebies can help some businesses but it has become unbalanced, there are way too many freebies available, and so it is now causing harm.

I'm concerned about the newer merchant starting out - I just don't think they have a chance to compete against all the freebies filling up SL now. Sure there may be some niche markets like Josh's hole business, but for the most part new merchants have no market anymore. And yes there are many hobbyists who aren't interested in selling and happy that another person might even want their creation, but I still think a big draw to SL is the satisfaction of creating and selling your content, and when many of these newer people can't do that they get frustrated and leave.

Many creators of more complex items in SL think the freebie market doesn't concern them at all (because what they create takes so long to make that few would spend that amount of time and offer it as a freebie) - however If we don't do something to facilitate markets for the newer merchants then those developing mesh and honing their skills in other ways will have few people to sell to as SL continues to decline.

I don't see most merchants being willing to cut down on how many freebies they offer - in fact many seem delighted to offer volumes of freebies and low-priced content as loss leaders in order to draw in customers to their expensive items, and in the process totally wiping out markets for the new merchant.

The only solution would be for LL to limit the amount of freebies each merchant could offer on the MP.

It's a good thing to impose limits/laws on people sometimes if it preserves the whole - this freebie problem seems to be one of those cases.

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How am I polarizing the discussion. Look at the dang title, and the first couple of pages. That's exactly what was being discussed. I was trying to take the discussion back there as I think it's a valuable one, and I'd like to understand why those who DO feel this way, feel that way. What exactly is wrong with that?

I don't personally think that is the only solution. I think there are much better ones, like oh, I don't know, the crazy theory that as merchants we ought to be helping each other, not knocking each other down. Strange concept, perhaps, but I've seen stranger things be successful. We don't have to eliminate freebies or start dictating how many, where, when, etc... to other merchants. Merchants shouldn't have to validate their decisions. I don't think someone who makes top dollar, a rl living, etc.. should have to validate their decisions or business plan anymore than the hobbyist who is simply happy to share all of his or her creations. I just don't understand why it matters so much to some people that they get a choice in what another merchant should be able to do with his or her business.

I am *trying, or was anyway, to figure out why some people think they SHOULD get to dictate how others run their business. That's why I kept asking, and will continue to ask, exactly what that has to do with freebies on the marketplace. I ask, because I don't understand(how else would I find out? I'm not psychic, psycho maybe at times, but not psychic). I still haven't seen an explanation here. I keep seeing merchants asking why others believe they have a right to offer free content. But I don't see anyone answering the questions that ask why they believe they get a right to dictate(or should get a right). I don't see freebie merchants telling other merchants they SHOULD offer all content(or any) completely free. Ok, maybe one person came close to that, but to be honest I'm not real sure how serious of an answer that was, lol.

I can tell people why I offer some free, or low-cost content, til the cows come home. It's apparently not a good enough explanation. I don't feel my content is somehow hurting another merchant, and I've yet to see evidence to the contrary. I do however see that elitist merchants, and folks who feel they've every right in the world to tell me what I can and cannot do, or should and should not do, harming the merchant community. I take a big issue with that. Because they were once the little guy too. Would do us all well to remember that we all started somewhere, and I think some people lose sight of that, somewhere down their road. Not all, but enough that i find it bothersome.

 

Edited to add something:

I don't think setting limits to what a merchant can or cannot offer, as far as pricing structure goes, is a good thing. For one, it doesn't cut down on the freebies and low cost stuff in world, which simply in sheer numbers is greatly over the amount in MP. But aside from that, if we're not going to have similar rules for merchants who charge more, why should we have such limits for merchants who charge less, or even nothing. They contribute to this grid too. It doesn't matter if they contribute more, or less, they still contribute. I know a lot of merchants who make some really cool, great, usefull even, stuff that is either low cost, or free. I've also run across a lot of people who make real crappy stuff, harmful stuff even, that charge an arm and a leg. What are we proposing LL do, to stop those folks? Nothing, right? That's what I thought. Until people want to be even steven, things will go the way they always have. I don't see freebies on the marketplace, or even combined with inworld ones, as being the big bad wolf here. I do see plenty of issues with the merchant community, but pricing structure has absolutely nothing to do with any of the issues I see. Much as I'd like to tell that person charging thousands for something I don't *personally* believe is worth it...I don't believe I have that right. That wouldn't be fair. It's not my product, it's not my business. I may have opinions, but that's all they are, my opinions.

I don't get to dictate you, or anyone elses pricing structure, so what exactly gives another a right to dictate mine? Maybe I charge less because the things some think I should charge more for, don't actually take me nearly as long to make. Maybe I feel that's what they're worth. Maybe I simply feel that charging less is giving back to the community that has given me so much over the years. Maybe I'm just in a pissy mood and feel like sticking it to the big guy. Who knows why I make the decisions I make, lol, certainly not you(general) or any other merchant. I don't personally feel I should have to answer to another merchant, or group of them, either.

As I already said, I opened the thread because I wanted to understand the mindset, and the opinions. But the discussion kinda went haywire. So anything I set out to understand, isn't even here. I can't be expected to understand if no one wants to answer. Trying to pin the cause of all your woes as a merchant on the people below you(as far as pricing structure) is like a big brother blaming little bro when his car gets screwed up because he failed to maintain it...just because little bro has a car too. Nope, doesn't make a lick of sense. It's your car, you're responsible for it's upkeep.

[Gavin Hird]

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Luna Bliss wrote:

The only solution would be for LL to limit the amount of freebies each merchant could offer on the MP.

It's a good thing to impose limits/laws on people sometimes if it preserves the whole - this freebie problem seems to be one of those cases.

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Agreed, but I believe indirect regulation rather than direct regulation would work better as certain parts of the market is all about open source items (like scripts.)

As I have stated before I believe this can be accomplished with the following mechanisms:

 

• To be able to list your products on the marketplace you must be a registered developer. Registration has a cost, and it must be renewed annually. 
• A minimum price is established for priced items that can't be undercut by anyone. This is a mechanism that has worked pretty good both on iTunes and Apple App store, and has also been adopted by Microsoft for their mobile marketplace. 
• Alternatively items can be listed for free. 
• If you list items for free, they will not be profiled or even returned in any regular product search. You have to explicitly search the free items category.
• Search results in the free items category are not given any boosts or relevance, but are returned in random list order as default. The shopper can then sort the list according to newest / oldest. This is to prevent both gaming of the list, but also remove some of the merchant clustering in the search results that we now see.
• Demo items are not returned in regular product search, but can only be viewed via a regular item that has a demo item linked to it. If you search for the word demo, the search engine will only list regular products that has demo items linked to them. Access to the demo is as per above.

For in-world search I don't see any particular need to impose any of the above, because you would actually have to move to the location to see the item in question. This improves in-world mobility and presence, which is good. 

 

[Marina Ramer]

Totally agree with you Gavin, and also Toysolidier proposal seems quite interesting but also agree with you about the cost wont be enough for solve this issue, and agree with Luna as well, I guess we are asking for the same and saying the same just in different ways.

I dont agree at all with this "And actually I see no difference between no money entering because people are hunting for freebies in world or no money entering because they take freebies them from the marketplace. The netto result for the economy is exactly the same."

I go myself to get a camping on Marketplace, and....oh here is a camping for free or $10, similar, so its same, I get this one then the cheaper, why to spend more?

For me this is without any doubts the mayority people way of reason.... and that does produce a big impact as people continuously expends less money than they should when nothing is free.

A collegue, Pamela Galli said yesterday " i wont sit and wait that people is ready to use mesh, I will create a market for mesh" you cannot have forever such a narrow vision to see everything as just "one cake", "and everyone eating from that only cake". The Market is divided on many niches, targets and even it spossible as pamela said, to open new markets. SO more than just one cake I see as a big number of cakes, (sorry my limited english) but that marketplace as I see it would me more profitable for us and Linden once again,  removing this on the process... why? because NOTeveryone who buys freebies has zero to expend as you think, thats totally wrong. many people has money and choose a freebie or ridiculousy free cheap-item instead os another, when could buy another instead, again beneficing sellers and LL:

I think that post has tons of different opinions right now, from many different ppoints of view, I even saw it became the bigger post made for long time, so I would really love to hear a "Marketplace linden" person, and read whats their vision or thoughts aobut this.

[Rene Erlanger]

 

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Josh Susanto wrote:

Rene-->

Yes, camping had economic as well as social benefits. It increased and recyled "money supply" and made for a more dynamic environment. Company A pays for Camping----> Resident B recieves monies for Camping----> and spends camping monies on products at Company C....thus dynamic money supply moving around the system.....otherwise you become solely reliant on "new money" brought into the SL economy.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------And

Josh -

why was it really done-away-with? Regardless of the official explanation, I suspect massive pressure from people with paid accounts who saw camping as attracting (as James Watt would say) "The Wrong Element". Yet another example of cutting off the bottom rung of the ladder. Without camping, I wouldn't have got very far.

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IMO it was one of the biggest mistakes made by LL (or Jack Linden) it changed the fabric of commercial activity  overnight.

Instead of vibrant commerical centres where SL'ers were earning money to feed their SL habits (wasn't just Newbies, plenty of Oldbies too)...many of those same venues became ghost-towns

I still pay 6-8 people today spread over different locations. Yep, I've paid them each and every day ever since the bans instead of them camping, they have become assistants and officially employed. In reality they do very little (apart from 2 Managers), but most where in my Group 3-4 years back and many became In-world friends...so I've always provided their SL spending money and continue to do so. Traffic is really not that relevant for in-world marketing or Searches...so there's no real benefitis on that score...and especially how they are spread out across different locations.

I could use Mickey's argument of trimming the fat....well the obvious area would be to stop paying those 6-8 people daily, but i don't want to do that as long as i have a business presence in SL. So that would be about 50-60k Lindens monthly i could potentially save...enough to pay Tiers for a Mainland sim.

It's not all about profits though, it's also about trying to preserve something within Second Life...an interactive experience and the reason as to why i i joined this 3D world in the first instance.

If i wanted to make money from a website like selling products (Marketplace) or some other activity like ebay....i'd probably open a online Trading account and trade in penny stocks because that is something that would interest me.

[Rene Erlanger]

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Josh Susanto wrote:

Rene>

If you haven't heard of "Cartoonimals" ...you need to get out about more in SL

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Josh >I

have heard of plenty of other things that were of no interest to me whatsoever, so I wouldn't have gone looking for that. I basically enjoy building and seeing what is built. Anything where there's a crowd of people just reminds me too much of RL attractions.

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Not really ever crowded overthere...which might be one of the reasons leading to the Sim's closure. If you're interested in cool ideas and innovative products...it's worth the visit IMO. There's some really funny stuff to look at too.

[Rene Erlanger]

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Tari Landar wrote:

Does it really make you feel superior to continue to call names and make off the cuff remarks about other merchants simply because they choose a different path, or make different decisions?

I don't think it's dumb at all, nor did I when it was a choice I made. I find that opinion to be quite sad to be honest. If I intended to stoop down to that level, I could, but why bother? I know why I made the decision, and I don't regret it one bit. I also know why some other merchants make the decision. My guess is they likely don't regret it either.  But then, I prefer not making rash judgment calls on other people like that. Clearly not a decision you've chose, so...whatever tickles your pickle.

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I didn't call you dumb in person.....just the concept of ditching a profitable business is a dumb idea, especially if one is able bodied.

If i sent you $100 USD each and every month, for doing virtually nothing other than openig the envelope....would you reject it and post it back?

I'm not talking about downsizing here, that i agree with, if profits are diminishing......I'm talking about closing the entire SL business presence, whilst it's churning out profits. Sorry that makes very little sense to me.....then again they're are many wierd marketing concepts that are being justified on these Forums.

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Tari Landar wrote:

Sigh. Yeah sometimes rl sucks. On at least one occasion, this is why I closed up a perfectly profitable store. Why did I not let it run, despite the profit rolling in? Because I wasn't even sure I'd be alive six months from then, much less in SL. Sometimes life gives you a perspective you just can't ignore. Profit wasn't as important as quality of life, to me, back then. May sound dumb, because, well, who doesn't need money? But that's the honest truth. I wouldn't change my decision back then anymore than I'd change it now if I faced it again. Which is a likely reality for me.

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I'm so sorry to hear, Tari... I wish you all best with your health.

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Luna Bliss wrote:

 

I'm concerned about the newer merchant starting out - I just don't think they have a chance to compete against all the freebies filling up SL now. Sure there may be some niche markets like Josh's hole business, but for the most part new merchants have no market anymore. And yes there are many hobbyists who aren't interested in selling and happy that another person might even want their creation, but I still think a big draw to SL is the satisfaction of creating and selling your content, and when many of these newer people can't do that they get frustrated and leave.

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That is a valid argument in my opinion. When you are starting now in SL there is not much that you can think of that is not available already in SL. You must have a lot more to offer in originality or skills then merchants had who started five years ago to be able to fight yourself into the market.But even with good designers skills it might be impossible for a new creator because of lack of marketing skills to gain any visibility in the wide range of the lower priced items.

But I don't see the solution for this group of creators in limiting just one group on the marketplace. I can agree with placing freebies in a freebie category that can be browsed separate from the items that have a price. But apart from that it is not up to us or to LL to decide what somebody does with an item he owns the copyright for. When he wants to offer this it for free, he is free to do so.

But actually I think you are right, and it would be fair as well. Just a simple rule like you are allowed to place max. 3 freebies on the marketplace, not matter if you use them as marketing or give them just out of generosity.

[Mickey Vandeverre]

You do that, and you take JOY away from a LOT of people.

Those people are my customers and friends, and me.

They are also yours.

You just missed analyzing that particular aspect of your business.  And if you miss that part, then yes, you will have some problems competing.

[Tari Landar]

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Rene Erlanger wrote:

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Tari Landar wrote:

Does it really make you feel superior to continue to call names and make off the cuff remarks about other merchants simply because they choose a different path, or make different decisions?

I don't think it's dumb at all, nor did I when it was a choice I made. I find that opinion to be quite sad to be honest. If I intended to stoop down to that level, I could, but why bother? I know why I made the decision, and I don't regret it one bit. I also know why some other merchants make the decision. My guess is they likely don't regret it either.  But then, I prefer not making rash judgment calls on other people like that. Clearly not a decision you've chose, so...whatever tickles your pickle.

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I didn't call you dumb in person.....just the concept of ditching a profitable business is a dumb idea, especially if one is able bodied.

If i sent you $100 USD each and every month, for doing virtually nothing other than openig the envelope....would you reject it and post it back?

I'm not talking about downsizing here, that i agree with, if profits are diminishing......I'm talking about closing the entire SL business presence, whilst it's churning out profits. Sorry that makes very little sense to me.....then again they're are many wierd marketing concepts that are being justified on these Forums.

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If opening that envelope had an effect on my rl health, or I was choosing to use my time elsewhere, I just might not ever open that envelope. And who are you to judge those actions?

Taking money from Sl, even from a profitable business, can't really be likened to opening an envelope, though. It's a different process(not necessarily difficult, just different). Having a business in sl that basically pays for itself, while perhaps not leaving a ton left to even take out of sl, is still considered successful, by many. My business, when I closed it, was paying for the sim we were on at the time, and then also feeding into my other activities in sl, as well as even feeding into the activities of others and my ability to support many others, including some rl charities that are very near and dear to me. But yet something in rl, was far more important than any of that. I find it rather insulting that you can't simply accept others don't make the same decisions you do, and because of that you feel you are superior(or are trying to come across that way anyway). I doubt very much that your opinion would remain the same, if you were faced with the same situations many merchants are, have been, or will be. It doesn't matter what their reasons for closing up the inworld shops and remaining on MP are(or even closing up completely, including MP). The fact of the matter is, they have their reasons. Any merchant, or any person, that feels entitled to deciding that is a "bad" decision, without actually knowing anything about it.. is, well, to put it into your words...dumb. No, actually I won't say that, because that's rude, they're not dumb, they're just not realizing that we're all not the same person. We all won't do the same things. What works for one, won't work for another. That's how *I* approach things. Much as I'd love for everyone else to have my opinion(ok, sometimes, but not always, lol), that's not a reality. We can't possibly know what's going on with every person, every business, every second of every day. You're suggesting you can, and can therefore judge another merchant based on your assumption. I'm saying that's probably not the best approach. Different strokes, I guess.

I'm not going to tell a merchant who simply doesn't want to have a presence inworld anymore-whatever their reason-they shouldn't do it. It's their baby, it's their business, it's their decision. I don't believe anyone else should either. That's my stance as far as that goes.

I've said it before and I still believe it to this day, the freebie category should have never been removed. It was SOOO valuable, and so helpful and it did a lot of good. I bet it would even solve some of the issues people believe exist. I still don't understand why LL did that, but then I don't understand a lot of what they choose to do.

I don't believing making crass and rude statements about other merchants is going to help the "warm and fuzzies" we should be feeling in a merchant community. Call me pollyanna if you wish, I don't mind, but I'd rather see fierce competition coupled with a warm and inviting merchant community. One where we may not all be equals(as far as talent, and even actions are concerned), but we are *treated* as such. Rose colored glasses, I knw, I get it. But I still think it would be ideal. I also think it would get rid of a lot of the elitist attitudes we've seen in this very thread too, which I can't help but believe would help foster a better world for all merchants.

But that's probably too positive of an outlook, I suppose. "If only I could..." is a phrase that often comes to mind when I see what the lab has done to what once was awesome, and could be again...If nothing else they've created(at least contributed to the creation of) some monsters among the merchant community, that's for sure.

[Gavin Hird]

The joy of what exactly?

You can still list your items free, and in-world it is all go. 

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

 

• To be able to list your products on the marketplace you must be a registered developer. Registration has a cost, and it must be renewed annually.

I do agree with being a registred developer. To protect the grid for illegal content, which will be more and more an issue in the future, anonymous selling must stop, actually anonymous uploads must stop. The only cost that registration should have is giving up your anonymosity. It should be enough when LL has your personal information.

 

 

• A minimum price is established for priced items that can't be undercut by anyone. This is a mechanism that has worked pretty good both on iTunes and Apple App store, and has also been adopted by Microsoft for their mobile marketplace.

That would not be so bad at itself. A minimum price can for example be 10 linden.

But the same thing that many now are trying to find a solution for will be there again as soon as such a new structure arrives. The lowest price category will be cluthered soon with 10.000nds of items that take away visibility for higher price items.

• Alternatively items can be listed for free. 
• If you list items for free, they will not be profiled or even returned in any regular product search. You have to explicitly search the free items category.
• Search results in the free items category are not given any boosts or relevance, but are returned in random list order as default. The shopper can then sort the list according to newest / oldest. This is to prevent both gaming of the list, but also remove some of the merchant clustering in the search results that we now see.
• Demo items are not returned in regular product search, but can only be viewed via a regular item that has a demo item linked to it. If you search for the word demo, the search engine will only list regular products that has demo items linked to them. Access to the demo is as per above.

For the rest I don't see much problems, or things not being fair to anybody in the same way.

 

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[Rene Erlanger]

If you go back to some of my messages regarding closing down a profitable SL business.....i did mention "other than terminally ill" ....i supposed we could expand beyond that definition. I also mentioned "able bodied" in another message

I'm sorry for your illness and though i don't know you....I'm glad you managed to overcome your ailments. Having lost both my parents to cancer...i do have empathy.

[Gavin Hird]

You will get a clustering at the minimum price all right.

In the app store it is set at $0.99, but I often see that price point is used as an intro price or a campaign price. I expect the price picture will be more scattered as the market develops. I think the mean price in the app store is around $5, but you also have products running at many hundreds. On iTunes I think the mean price went a little bit up when they lowered the minimum price to $0.79 and also made it possible to sell over the $0.99 they ran with initially.