Deeding objects to group while renting house

[Jeenkie]

I recently rented my first house in SL and bought a Big Screen TV. I had to deed it over to my group or Landlord to get it to work If and when I buy my own land and move will I be able to take ownership of it back or will I have to purchase another TV. Thanks for any help !! : )

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Media players like TV's and Radio's must be deeded to the group that owns group owned land in order to work.  This is because all media players must be owned by the land owner to function.  However these objects should be given back  to you when you leave.   You may or may not have to have a group owner return them to you , depending on how they set up the group.  If you have the proper authorities in the group you can simply take it back.  If not contact  a group owner and have them give it back to you.  You can ask your landlord about how this is handled in his or her group.

A note of caution: Items deeded to a group should NEVER be 'returned' using 'return in the menu you get when you click on something or auto return in the land tools or through a rental system.  The sim server doesn't know which member of the group to return it to so they go into oblivion and are lost permanently.  Group objects must be 'taken' into inventory and then passed to the rightful owner if another member other than the original owner takes them. 

If you fail to pay your rent and everything on your rental property  is 'returned' to you, you will lose all your media players.  So if you can't pay your rent and know you will be evicted, its best to move out voluntarily.  If you lose items due to items being returned the Landlord will not replace them.

[Phil Deakins]

That's a little different from what I remember when I was a landlord. If my memory of it is good, the landlord was to unable steal the item; i.e. unable to take it. The only choice was to return it, which worked fine. Maybe something has changed since then or maybe nothing has changed.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I speak from personal experiece.  Back when i was a newb a long time ago and rented, I  lost TV's and Radios deeded to group because they were 'returned' and know a lot of people this has happened to.  My personal experiece came from once renting a skybox as a newb and then not being able to log in to pay my rent on time resulting in eviction.  It also happened once when a script that rezzed things went haywire and started rezzing things right and left until the parcel was full and it returned things.  Maybe its not supposed to happen, but it did.  When I asked why a Linden told me this is why they were lost.

I've never heard of a landlord stealing tv's or radios this way.  However I have taken in tv's and radios that were deeded to our land group by my partner in order to move.  As a landlord, to be cautious i either took the object and returned it to the tenant or set it for 'sale' for $0L and let the tenant 'but' it to return it. to the tenant.

From the SL wiki

Any object that is shared or deeded to group can be manipulated or possibly taken by group members with the "Manipulate (move, copy, modify) group-owned objects" ability. Typically, Owners and Officers of a group have this ability.

Shared or deeded objects may have been taken or moved to another location and later returned or deleted.

[Phil Deakins]

The memory of my experience as a landlord (in the past) is different. I used to tell people that the landlord was unable to steal such objects. But my memory could be at fault, or I may have not understood it properly back then, so I'm going to test it right now.

ETA: One thing does spring to mind. Many people think that things have been lost when, in fact, they've been returned successfully but in coallesced objects, which don't have the name of the item being looked for. I've helped people find stuff many times when they thought that things had been lost.

[Qie Niangao]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

Shared or deeded objects may have been taken or moved to another location and later returned or deleted.

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Yeah.  That part is a bit subtle and may be a source of confusion.  If another properly-privileged group member Deletes a group-deeded item, it gets returned to the owner who deeded it.  On the other hand, such a member can Take the item* and thus dispose of it altogether (or rez it again as their own, etc).

________

*Assuming the item has transfer perms, which it probably did, to be group-deeded.  The twist here is that the perms apply to Next Owner, so often enough, somebody will create an item that they can transfer and deed it to group without Transfer perms for Next Owner.  Then nobody can take it from that "next owner," the Group.

[Phil Deakins]

I haven't looked at the part that Qie responded to so, that aside, the truth is a mixture of both our beliefs. I used an alt for the test. Neither I nor the alt can edit each other's objects. That simulates a landlord and tenant.

First, as the group owner, I could not take an object that was deeded to the group by a group member, so I couldn't steal it. That's how I remembered it.

Second, as the group owner, I could return it to the person who rezzed it, of course, and it went into the person's Lost & Found folder, as I expected. BUT, and it's a big but, if the object had been no-transfer, it would have been lost forever. I got a pop-up to that effect when I was returning it. It's that last bit - the big "but" - that you and I were never aware of. It's probable that the thing you lost forever was no-trans. Either that or you were new enough at the time not to know about coallesced objects.

So, as long as the item can be transfered, it will be returned to the person who rezzed it. Also, the group owner (landlord) cannot steal the item (trans or no-trans) by taking it into his/her inventory.

[Phil Deakins]

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Qie Niangao wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

Shared or deeded objects may have been taken or moved to another location and later returned or deleted.

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Yeah.  That part is a bit subtle and may be a source of confusion.  If another properly-privileged group member Deletes a group-deeded item, it gets returned to the owner who deeded it.  On the other hand, such a member can Take the item* and thus dispose of it altogether (or rez it again as their own, etc).

________

*Assuming the item has transfer perms, which it probably did, to be group-deeded.  The twist here is that the perms apply to Next Owner, so often enough, somebody will create an item that they can transfer and deed it to group without Transfer perms for Next Owner.  Then nobody can take it from that "next owner," the Group.

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I found that not to be the case, Qie. The object I tested with was a wooden cube that the alt created for the test. Its perms were automatically trans - and I did check that after I read your post. So it was transferable and, as the group owner, I have all the group abilities possible but I still couldn't Take it. I could move it, of course, but I couldn't Take it.

The only way I could steal it is to simply not return it, and it would have to stay rezzed, of course.

ETA: I just tested with a no-trans object. Such an object can be deeded to a group and it does disappear forever when it is returned.

[Qie Niangao]

I can replicate part of that.

It seems that no-mod group-deeded objects cannot be taken by a group owner.  Mod perm objects, on the other hand, can be taken by the group owner.

Also, the no-trans thing only applies to "next owner"... so if I set an object's next-owner perms to no-trans and deed it to group, it is group-owned forever, as expected.  I cannot deed to group an object that is already no-transfer to me (that is, I'm the "next owner" to which the no-transfer perm applies).

[Phil Deakins]

More tests...

I concur with that. A no-trans (to the current owner) object can't be deeded at all unless the owner is the creator, or received it with the trans perm. So the OP's issue doesn't arise.

And mod objects that are deeded can be taken by the group owner (or anyone in the group with the right abilities).

So tenants need to be careful. A mod object that is deeded to the group can be fully stolen. For that reason, media players ought to be no-mod and trans, and they probably are.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Interesting test results.  I knew about objects that are copy/no transfer not being able to be taken by other group members, and that makes sense since it would violate the original creators intentions.

@ Qie:

Your results are also interesting.  Its odd to me that mod objects vs. no mod objects act differently, as I can see no logic to it.  Many TV's are mod so you can size them to fit a particular space. I'm not sure I'd buy a no mod TV for that reason since I usually need to resize them.

The Wiki needs to be updated obviously.  I wonder if things regarding group objects have been changed since my experiences with losing them.  It did happen 4 years or more ago.

[Qie Niangao]

Yeah, I have to say that the mod vs no-mod thing makes no sense to me, either.  I tried it a couple of times to make sure I hadn't changed something else or otherwise contaminated the test, and just couldn't find another explanation for what was happening.  I'd welcome either a different result or some way of making this one seem sensible.

[Jeenkie]

Thanks everyone for your responses and help !! I only purchased one TV and paid around 1400 L's for it instead of a multi-pack that was a bit more. I do plan on buying land soon and building on it. Just getting practice with dealing with such issues now as a renter so I can be a better land owner in the future. I will try not to buy anything else that would need to be deeded to someone other than my own land until AFTER I purchase my own land to avoid any issues that could come up. Thanks All for your help !! I will more than likely be back later with land owner questions : )  Have a great Day everybody !!

[McCensie]

Miss Amethyst is actually incorrect here. For anyone referencing this content objects that are deeded to a group in fact are returned to the previous owner when hitting the return option from the right click menu. They are not stolen or lost into cyberspace lol.

[Qie Niangao]

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McCensie wrote:

Miss Amethyst is actually incorrect here. For anyone referencing this content objects that are deeded to a group in fact are returned to the previous owner when hitting the return option from the right click menu. They are not stolen or lost into cyberspace lol.

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This is actually really complicated, so I'd advise anybody referencing this (very old) thread to read through it carefully. Among the ways group-deeded objects can indeed be "lost into cyberspace" is if their next-owner permissions when deeded do not include Transfer. In that case, the group becomes that next owner, after which they cannot be returned to the previous owner.

[steph Arnott]

When i deed to group an object which is mod, i can not undeed and can not edit the script, why is that? BTW i am the owner of the group.I have be meaning to ask that for awhile.

[Phil Deakins]

There is no facility for undeeding. You can return it (to yourself) though.

You cannot edit another owner's object scripts, unless you set the mod permission on the script when you wrote it.

It's the same with any script in any object that you create. Once the object has been passed to another owner, you can't edit the script if it doesn't have the mod permission.

It used to make it awkward when testing security devices you are creating. To test it on group-owned land, it needed to be deeded to the group, even though it was the group owner who was creating and testing it. But there was a change. Now, such a device works, and can be tested, on group-owned land, provided that the devices owner has 'freeze and eject' ability in the group. It makes crerating such things much easier now. By testing, I mean actually ejecting avatars, or sending them Home.

Note: I said there was a change, but I can't be certain of that. It may always have been there but I hadn't noticed when I created the security device that I've sold for years.

[steph Arnott]

OK, did not make the connection that deeded meant a new owner. Thankyou for the explanation.

[Pussycat Catnap]

Most SL radio and TV brands comes with two objects. One if the TV that displays stuff - usually no_trans. The other is usually a copy/trans items, mod/trans, or copy/mod/trans item with a no-mod script inside - that you deed.

That second object can usually be replaced for free or a low cost, and all it does is listen to commands told to it by the TV or radio, and then set parcel properties accordingly. In this way you can even get tossed and banned from your land, and still have your TV / Radio, and all the land-owner gets is a controller box that is useless without its matching TV/Radio.