Latisha Pexie Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 This isn't a rant or a rave and I sincerely hope this thread doesn't disintegrate into that...As a consumer the one thing I would like to see from those that make and sell mesh products is demo's. I'm not sure if some are doing them but the places I've gone to haven't had them. Mesh is SO different from all other kinds of clothing out there. Buying mesh clothing is much more like buying hair than it is other forms of clothing. With mesh... It depends on your shape. That is a bit of a problem. I've purchased a couple of mesh products that I loved in the picture but they just didn't fit my shape. Unless there are demos I don't think I will ever be purchasing mesh clothing again. The cost is generally too much to risk when there's a good chance it won't fit. So... Not a rant. Just something I'd like to see. Put demo text on or a giant box above our head or something. But since we can't edit mesh I think having a demo would make many consumers more secure about making a purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Sure, demos, good idea, but I think you missed the memo. Mesh clothing is missing a HUGE fix. This fix is being worked on by Qarl, an ex Linden. From the way that he talks about it on the Metareality podcast, it will not be long before it is here. Hopefully, then all mesh clothing will fit most avatars, tho the complete details are not as straight forward. It will definitely be interesting to see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiffy Vella Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Luckily, Ive found demos when looking for avvies, hair and clothes. The clothes ones are especially vital, as you say. It's really welcoming to find clothes makers finally supplying them (so many other creators do in other areas). And, yes----Yay to the fixes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBaginski Bearsfoot Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 There have always been problems with clothing and the user's body shape. You can see things such as doglegs in bikini straps as you shift the breast size/position settings. Sculpts and prims need careful adjustment. Qarl's fix is welcome. Being able to save and add a head-only shape would have avoided a lot of the problems I have had. It's not quite a universal, but the head and face are surely far more significant an element of personal identity than a body-shape. Even for a Furry, a different set of head data can shift the attachment points for head-components such as the jaw and eyes. It is slightly astonishing that this has never been noticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: Hopefully, then all mesh clothing will fit most avatars, tho the complete details are not as straight forward. It will definitely be interesting to see what happens. Not as I understand it. For this to work, the original clothing has to be made to a template mesh (probably the default SL avatar? Has the default mesh been announced?) The clothing will then deform according to the sliders so as to "shrink wrap" from the template mesh. So it won't help existing mesh clothing at all, only clothing made to the template from which deformations will be applied. I've seen some "standard sizing" shapes included which are being supplied by a consortium of creators and have to say they are among some of the worst shapes i've seen. One in particular looks like an anorexic sick child for example. This can't happen soon enough so as to avoid disappointment by customers and the effort in the creation and packaging of multiple shapes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 This is what is under development at the moment: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harm Xue Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 This video makes me realize how desperately we need a new default avatar mesh. It might have been an "ok" mesh 6 or 7 years ago, but it's totally dated now and it's only due to the remarkable ingenuity of so many in SL that turned Noob Linden into some beautiful looking avatars. You can see in the video how wearing a very nice jacket, and with the deformer working, when you increase body fat...even the jacket becomes something completely atrocious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Sassy Romano wrote: Not as I understand it. For this to work, the original clothing has to be made to a template mesh (probably the default SL avatar? Has the default mesh been announced?) Unless a creator makes their own avatar, and then sells the clothing with that avatar, then whatever mesh clothing you see on the marketplace is made to fit the default SL Avatar. The default SL Avatar has been around and used for making anything related to avatars in SL, from animation to clothing textures. The only major problem with this is that the default avatar does not come in file formats that work in every 3d software. Actually, what LL gives us doesn't work in any major 3d programs besides Poser and Dazstudio, without some format conversion, which is not supplied by LL. This is not much different than any game, or engine where you can import avatars. @Harm - I actually have that same jacket, and if the creator could have tested this deformer, I'm sure they would have made it in a way to still look good with most of the morphs. Of course, without total control of the morphing, no creator can totally control how the mesh will look on every avatar. What seriously worries me, is not the body morphs, but the facial morphs. The video does not mention this at all. If the facial morphs do work, do they also work with SL expressions? I would think they would considering that the facial morphs aren't much different from the shaping morphs. Just yesterday, I released a Lycan Avatar. The shape that I created for it, I made originally for a regular avatar and has crazy adjustments in the facial shaping. I did not even consider that facial morphs might actually work someday. I'm sure, if the facial morphs do work, my Lycan's face is going to be all screwed up. Not that big a deal, just send out a new shape for it, but I wish I would have thought about this before 2 days ago, lol. If any1 has a link to 1 of these alpha viewers, please post it, as I have no idea where people are getting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Ceriano Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Here you go... Nirans Viewer. ...Dres ETA: Two more... Milkshake and Exodus. There's reviews of all three on Inara's blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: Unless a creator makes their own avatar, and then sells the clothing with that avatar, then whatever mesh clothing you see on the marketplace is made to fit the default SL Avatar. The default SL Avatar has been around and used for making anything related to avatars in SL, from animation to clothing textures. The only major problem with this is that the default avatar does not come in file formats that work in every 3d software. Actually, what LL gives us doesn't work in any major 3d programs besides Poser and Dazstudio, without some format conversion, which is not supplied by LL. This is not much different than any game, or engine where you can import avatars. You would think that would be sensible but you'd be very wrong. The default avatar is rarely used. Instead you have consortiums of creators making up their idea of "standard sizing" such as this https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Standard-Sizing-Package/2894727 I'm not sure though where you get the idea that the format of the default avatar is not suitable for most 3d software. It's downloadable in the very popular Wavefront .OBJ file which is suitable for just about ANY 3d software. Further, you can export your own mesh as .OBJ There are no problems working with the default avatar mesh at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 That person is just selling different shapes. No matter how you morph it, it is still the default avatar. Yeah, obj works, but that means absolutely nothing when it comes to rigging it. It might as well just be a box. Without the exact default weights, it all gets quite messy. As far as I know OBJ files do not come with skinning or rigging weights. For Blender, some1, sorry i forget who, created a avatar.blend file that includes the default weights. I hope that is what most people are using, and is what I will be using when I make my clothing for a project. Others have found ways to extract all the relevant data, and I know of some product for sale on the marketplace that can get you the default avatar and weights for most of the popular 3d programs, but I have yet to try it. I tried the deformer, and exactly what I thought was going to happen did happen. The head of my Lycan was a mess. Recognizable, but still a mess. I was able to get it close to the default, and played around with some of the other settings. Something goes crazy with the back of my Lycan tho, which I rigged to have a big hump, and the chest gets weird when you scale it down. The feet are way too big, and I can't shrink them down small enough to look right to me. Overall, on a mesh avatar, the sliders are cool to play with and change the avatar, but the results basically turn a smooth mesh avatar into a ugly spiny thing. I'd opt for it not to work with my mesh avatar. I might be able to adjust things to make it better, but I doubt I really could, and some parts just look wrong no matter what. For normal default avatar clothing, I'm sure it works great tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: That person is just selling different shapes. No matter how you morph it, it is still the default avatar. Yeah, obj works, but that means absolutely nothing when it comes to rigging it. It might as well just be a box. Without the exact default weights, it all gets quite messy. As far as I know OBJ files do not come with skinning or rigging weights. For Blender, some1, sorry i forget who, created a avatar.blend file that includes the default weights. I hope that is what most people are using, and is what I will be using when I make my clothing for a project. Others have found ways to extract all the relevant data, and I know of some product for sale on the marketplace that can get you the default avatar and weights for most of the popular 3d programs, but I have yet to try it. If you want to look at it that way yes it's the default avatar in terms of triangles but once morphed to one of many different shapes, selling existing mesh items that are rigged will ONLY fit that shape so it's semantics as to whether it's a different avatar or not. By the way, that wasn't just "a person" the URL I listed is a consoritum of creators who want to define standard shapes. Bit of a short sighted mistake in my view. As to formats, again, obj is just fine and people are rigging it in various tools. As you've stated, Domino has provided avatar.blend as one example so the assertion that only Poser and Daz are supported is somewhat inaccurate. With regard to the lycan avatar, it feels like you're missing the point of the deformer? Most people are desperate for this to enable them to wear "normal" mesh clothes and likewise for creators to create a single mesh without having to resort to a variety of shapes. I wouldn't expect to be creating a unique avatar and get great results, that's not the use for which it has been created as far as i'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Sassy Romano wrote: If you want to look at it that way yes it's the default avatar in terms of triangles but once morphed to one of many different shapes, selling existing mesh items that are rigged will ONLY fit that shape so it's semantics as to whether it's a different avatar or not. By the way, that wasn't just "a person" the URL I listed is a consoritum of creators who want to define standard shapes. Bit of a short sighted mistake in my view. As to formats, again, obj is just fine and people are rigging it in various tools. As you've stated, Domino has provided avatar.blend as one example so the assertion that only Poser and Daz are supported is somewhat inaccurate. With regard to the lycan avatar, it feels like you're missing the point of the deformer? Most people are desperate for this to enable them to wear "normal" mesh clothes and likewise for creators to create a single mesh without having to resort to a variety of shapes. I wouldn't expect to be creating a unique avatar and get great results, that's not the use for which it has been created as far as i'm concerned. While I'm aware that some creators have gone to somewhat extreme lengths to help their customers with how the mesh fits, at some point, they likely start from the default. The Jacket in the video comes in a dozen or so sizes, yet the 1 Qarl chose fit pretty good and worked almost perfectly. Now, just all those other options are useless, or just looser/tighter fitting options. Most packages should have 1 that is at least near the default. What I was saying about the format that LL gives us, is that it is not ready to create on. You can't just drop it into any program and make a rigged piece of clothing. The download LL gives us is made for Poser, and basically poser only, as far as rigging goes. Don't ask me why LL doesn't give us a download for, at least the few major programs like 3ds Max, blender, and Maya. They obviously must own a couple of those. Even IMVU, and BM gives you a max file. Yeah, it is made for clothing, but if simply implemented as is, would break all the unusual mesh avatars. If we were able to designate the morph areas on our mesh, that would be fricken awesome, and really should have been the plan all along. No doubt, it would add even more complexity to making an avatar, but OMG would the customer have fun customizing their mesh avatars. Currently, most of the facial morphs are not in the right places at all on my Lycan, and the ear morphs are on his neck. The bottom line is tho, that we need to be able to not have this work for some rigged meshes. This should not apply for the bone stretching sliders, those work perfectly as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelsea Malibu Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I have to agree with Sassy on this one in that I have tried a lot and most I have tried, involve significant changes to my Avi. It does shape to you in some ways such as height and width but things like body fat, breast, leg muscles often need to be modified. But back on what the OP said, most I have found have demos. In fact, I have yet to find any designers that don't have demos. It's almost become a standard and I have a ton of mesh clothing. I absolutely love it and even though I was skeptical at first, I must admit I was wrong and am now not only a convert but an evangelist for mesh clothing. It's a whole new game now and I can't wait for more to come out. (Feel free to spam me in world when anyone makes anything..I can't wait for more.) And Sassy? when you gonna make some of your sexy little skirts in mesh? I'll be waiting outside your store when you do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latisha Pexie Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 Even with the deformer I will still champion for all designers to provide demos for any mesh clothing. Much like with hair, even though something can be resized to fit, does not mean it will look right on your avatar. I'm glad to hear that many designers are putting out demos. My OP was based on my own shopping experience. Admittedly I have not gone out LOOKING for mesh clothing. Nor will I for awhile in all honesty... I've bought 2 pieces of mesh clothing... One for my boi avatar and one for my femme avatar... And neither designer offered demos... And both pieces turned out to be bad for their respective avatars... I don't make clothing so I have no idea how much extra work it is to put out a demo version of an item.. But I will go out on a limb and say it will be more profitable to any designer in the long run. I know I'm not the only one that would be far more comfortable spending lindens on something that I'm confident I'll actually be able to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Till now I have one mesh product that has a demo version, this is a pair of full perms glasses. We have several reasons why we made a demo for this product, but not for others. - It is an avatar attachment that influences the look a lot. People must be able to try out. - It has three different texture faces that designers can texture. So it s a bit more complicated then the one-texture objects. Designers must be able to have a closer look at the object before buying. - The price is a bit higher then our average products. But for the most of our objects I think we don't need demo's. Most are not avatar attachments and people can come to have a look in our mesh store to see them rezzed in world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latisha Pexie Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 Yes, I apologize I was not clear. When talking about demo products I was mostly speaking of clothing. I don't think I would need a demo of a mesh object any more than I would a sculpty. But with clothing fit is important and not a guarantee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 No problem. How about a subject change? "For the mesh clothing makers" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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