Esteemed Clients, Bans and R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

Aristophanese · November 10, 2011

Venus Petrov wrote:

/me stands and applauds

Well, of course.

http://slconfidential.blogspot.com/

The right margin is full of Venus, Storm and Pep.

We should read between the lines here also, yes Carole?

Venus Petrov · November 10, 2011

Aristophanese wrote:

Venus Petrov wrote:

/me stands and applauds

Well, of course.

http://slconfidential.blogspot.com/

The right margin is full of Venus, Storm and Pep.

We should read between the lines here also, yes Carole?

Ohh the trash talk blog. Funny, I have never seen a bunny there.

Carole Franizzi · November 10, 2011

Aristophanese wrote:

Venus Petrov wrote:

/me stands and applauds

Well, of course.

http://slconfidential.blogspot.com/

The right margin is full of Venus, Storm and Pep.

We should read between the lines here also, yes Carole?

Read everywhere. And read on and between the lines. If one has a commercial enterprise, pride should be the last of the considerations. The only target should be making money. Within the dissatisfied customers' comments lies the formula for gaining new and satisfied clients.

Sy Beck · November 10, 2011

Hmm, so new, so few posts and virtually all aimed at the same person. You couldn't be a.....stalking alt could you?

The original Aristophanes was funny and of course all his actors wore masks, good to see that you can at least manage the latter.

Carole Franizzi · November 10, 2011

Caitlin Tobias wrote:

Carole Franizzi wrote:

Too kind, Orange-knickers. I've been cheeky and presumptious - speaking not only for myself, but for on behalf of others. My only excuse is that I get the strong impression that quite a lot of people are getting a little weary of being treated in a less than respectful way.

LOL@Orange-knickers!

Um, hang on......how do you..? Never mind.

You forget - I am a RL witch.........

Carole Franizzi · November 10, 2011

UncommonTruth wrote:

That Pep. Since in under-mining and criticism, one can find (if you read between the lines) the most constructive and useful input, he is precious beyond gold. It's not from the converted and contentedly satisfied that one will find stimuli to improve or solutions to the problems, but from pains in the neck like him.

That is why I love "trolls" ^^ My favorite people have always fallen in that category.

"Trolls" in this business can be infinitely useful. Annoying as hell to fellow forumites, but to the management....

But I see I'm preaching to the converted.

Aristophanese · November 10, 2011

One thing the forumites aren't, are fools. You sir, are no exception.

Carole Franizzi · November 10, 2011

Aristophanese wrote:

One thing the forumites aren't, are fools. You sir, are no exception.

Indeed. Sy is no fool. But then, quite a few SLers have more than your average brain-cell allowance.Which is what this thread is about. Tapping into the amazing human resources LL has on tap. Free. For the common good.

Just be nice to us. We're actually (mostly) really decent people.

Carole Franizzi · November 10, 2011

Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

ok, well did not want to interrupt if it was not for discussion - tend to get into trouble for that now and then.

Not sure if I have background correct, just dropped in the other day, and quite an uproar over a sub-forum. The Vampire section?

There's a forum for Land Owners, one for Merchants, one for people into Relationship aspects, on and on, this and that ....

....and I'll include here, that I was a little obnoxious to the Ladies who Do Breakfast in their Jammies Club, or whatever club it was.....for getting to take up space and promote their club in the forums, when no one else was doing that....

....but got to thinking, and thought....maybe it's just a matter that no one else took the initiative. If no one else takes the initiative, and spearheads some kind of a movement or request for it.....then how can you blame another group-type for having that drive?

You seem to be of the opinion that you enjoy watching people respond rudely and maybe get a kick out of it? did I read that right? I don't. Sets me off....as you well know. Would prefer that sub-set is not here. But looks like some have been given seal of approval.

I very vividly recall some exchanges toward new posters or posters who do not participate frequently or daily, that make the hair on the back of my neck stand up....Maybe that's similar to you reading about vampires?

In spite of all the poking by the forum regulars....looks like the vampire enthusiasts are being pretty darn nice! I could learn from that....short fuse here.

Also - kinda sets a precedent....on who is allowed to participate here and who is not. Do you not think so?

I mean, good lord, I get so frustrated with LL for not doing much promotion, and here they are attempting something, and they've got to deal with a dozen forum regulars who got a wee bit pissy?

I watched the promotion - and I watched the numbers - and I like what I see. (well, except for all the poking they received) Looking forward to watching that type of promotional activity again.

What kind of sub-forum is it that you want Carole? what type of population or community or event are you interested in contacting LL about to work up another promotion? looks like it's going well, so seems like they would open to that. Have you contacted them yet?

Is this your contact to suggest an additional sub-forum? sorry, but I think I might have missed the topic of that sub-forum in your post - lemme go back and read again.

eta:

well Holy Cow! Looks like you have the chance!

My hackles rise when bullying occurs. I've taken a good deal of flak for sticking my nose in when I've seen it occur, as I've jumped to people's defence on many an occasion.

Now that all makes sense if what we have here is a forum. We no longer have a forum. Not in the true sense of the word. It appears - nope - it is a publicity vehicle. Fair enough. I assume if LL has decided to use the forum for promotional activities, then there is a reason - one linked to necessity. I'm not objecting to that. You do what you have to do and if they think it's worth a shot using the forums as free publicity for SL, then I'd be nuts to object.

What I object to is:-

a) not warning us (and lack of communication in general)

b) banning unfairly clients who raised a perplexed and perfectly reasonable objection to a sudden change of direction

c) favouring only one commercial sector over all the others

For this has damn all to do with RP. Do you think I care what people run around SL dressed as? I could not care less, Mickey. It has to do with requesting equal treatment of all clients and, as I am client, I have a vested interest in not standing by watching other clients being treated like something nasty stuck to the sole of one's shoe.

Perrie Juran · November 10, 2011

Carole Franizzi wrote:

Just be nice to us. We're actually (mostly) really decent people.

Very well said. I think who ever this Linden Lab person is, they need to figure it out also. And learn how to read.

I mentioned it earlier and it is now available to read, today's CTUG meeting transcript.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Community_Tools_User_Group/10-November-2011

Dresden Ceriano · November 10, 2011

Perrie Juran wrote:

Carole Franizzi wrote:

Just be nice to us. We're actually (mostly) really decent people.

Very well said. I think who ever this Linden Lab person is, they need to figure it out also. And learn how to read.

I mentioned it earlier and it is now available to read, today's CTUG meeting transcript.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Community_Tools_User_Group/10-November-2011

There's also an unabridged version posted on someone's boring blog.

...Dres

Perrie Juran · November 10, 2011

Carole Franizzi wrote:

UncommonTruth wrote:

That Pep. Since in under-mining and criticism, one can find (if you read between the lines) the most constructive and useful input, he is precious beyond gold. It's not from the converted and contentedly satisfied that one will find stimuli to improve or solutions to the problems, but from pains in the neck like him.

That is why I love "trolls" ^^ My favorite people have always fallen in that category.

"Trolls" in this business can be infinitely useful. Annoying as hell to fellow forumites, but to the management....

But I see I'm preaching to the converted.

At one of my Annual Company sales meetings the Vice President of the company came up to me and said, "Sometimes you are a real pain in the ass." For just a moment I thought the other show as going to drop really hard but then he said, "Keep it up, it keeps us honest up here."

Sometimes my complaints weren't valid but sometimes they were. And when they were they either saved or made the company money.

I was even more surprised that night when at our banquet I was awarded "Sales Rep of the Year." I was quite honored and yes it came with some nice perks.

Perrie Juran · November 10, 2011

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

I mentioned it earlier and it is now available to read, today's CTUG meeting transcript.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Community_Tools_User_Group/10-November-2011

There's also an unabridged version posted on someone's boring blog.

...Dres

nice to know.

Dresden Ceriano · November 10, 2011

Perrie Juran wrote:

Carole Franizzi wrote:

UncommonTruth wrote:

That Pep. Since in under-mining and criticism, one can find (if you read between the lines) the most constructive and useful input, he is precious beyond gold. It's not from the converted and contentedly satisfied that one will find stimuli to improve or solutions to the problems, but from pains in the neck like him.

That is why I love "trolls" ^^ My favorite people have always fallen in that category.

"Trolls" in this business can be infinitely useful. Annoying as hell to fellow forumites, but to the management....

But I see I'm preaching to the converted.

At one of my Annual Company sales meetings the Vice President of the company came up to me and said, "Sometimes you are a real pain in the ass." For just a moment I thought the other show as going to drop really hard but then he said, "Keep it up, it keeps us honest up here."

Sometimes my complaints weren't valid but sometimes they were. And when they were they either saved or made the company money.

I was even more surprised that night when at our banquet I was awarded "Sales Rep of the Year." I was quite honored and yes it came with some nice perks.

At the very least, he is an amusing read...

...Dres (...as long as you can take the contents out of your head and be able to rub two brain cells together.)

Carole Franizzi · November 11, 2011

Well, exactly.

Let’s be brutal for a moment. What is the product that LL sells? Well, to some, it’s very light entertainment. To others, it’s a very vital and necessary part of their lives. To such people – ones who have made homes here, made friends, fallen in love, “married” – it cannot be compared to a TV set or a boiler which goes on the blink. I’ve often wondered whether LL has ever fully comprehended the immense emotional investment some people make, and consequently, if they have ever understood the ethical implications of playing God in so many people’s lives.

Not forgetting the people who, with a “contract” which in no way protects them but only LL, invest money and time into SL projects, to the point that some partially or wholly depend on these projects for their RL income. Who on earth would sign a contract with an employer or a partner which protects only the rights of the other? Well, lovers of SL do. All the time. Every time you make something, rent or buy land, open a shop, make friends, fall in love, marry, you are carrying out an immense act of faith and goodwill in LL. Because they can cancel your contract in the blink of an eye. No appeal. No discussion. No argument. No explanation even.

This why the forums are so important. The product is us. And we create bonds with fellow products. We invest emotionally and financially. In something which is as stable as a paddle boat in the middle of an storm at sea. And yet we keep doing it. Why? Because we love SL. But if our only means of direct communication to our “gods” - the forums - is regimented like a South American dictatorship (no offence to South American dictatorships), how can we not be frustrated, irritable, offended? Being treated like half-witted preschoolers is very, very annoying. What the heck effort does it require to make a few short posts to keep us up-dated. Being treated as if we were too stupid to understand is annoying, doubly so when we are the thing to be understood.

We speak up to object to some new scheme and we get booted? Unacceptable. Really unacceptable. Posters like Pep make a couple (three to be precise) of jokey posts and they get banned for flooding the forums, whilst posters who’ve been recruited to create publicity are allowed to flood the forums with 20 threads, each composed of two lines, around the same theme? Come on…you gotta be joking.

As I said, and as you confirmed, it’s the pains in the behind who supply you with the objective and useful information. Do LL really expect to get useful feedback from the I’m-so-happy ones who have a home, husband and prim kids in SL? Nah. All they’re going to tell you is how wunnerful it all is. The problem is it’s not wunnerful and more new clients are needed. And to figure out how to get them in here, LL needs to listen to the ones without the rose-tinted specs and decipher what they’re complaining about. Because in amongst the spoofs, parodies, complaints, rants, rages and melt-downs there’s precious marketing data.

And if they deigned to enter into conversation with us, maybe they’d get a whole lot more. And completely free of charge!

TriJin Bade · November 11, 2011

I couldn't have put it better myself. Thank you for posting that.

I was going to boycott the SL Forums and stay out of it, for that specific reason - the lack of respect to the machine that drives Second Life. No, not cash, but the RESIDENTS that show respect to others. Those are the people who are the Linden Lab's bread and butter.

Anyway, this will probably be my last post in the forum, until the moderators and the Linden team get together and actually prove policy consistancy between them.

[cue darth vader exit music]

Exits stage left.

Perrie Juran · November 11, 2011

Carole Franizzi wrote:

And if they deigned to enter into conversation with us, maybe they’d get a whole lot more. And completely free of charge!

Not to long ago I had a friend that a Viewer 2 update crashed her computer. After rebooting, every time she logged into SL she crashed. Myself and two others with a combined 10 years of experience spent two hours (6 combined) getting her running again. Talking her through clean installs, trying different viewers, etc, before we found one that would work for her. Do the moderators (or Mr or Mrs. Linden Lab) realize the effort many of us put in to SL? And if for one minute they are going to try and tell us 'Support' would have helped, sheeeesh. That was worth a couple of hundred dollars in support time.

So I say to whoever Mr or Mrs. Linden Lab is first show us that you value us and then we will show you respect. Moderate the Forums with respect for your users. We are not just a bunch of Ass Hats here.

One thing I did after receiving that award was that I worked harder for my company because I knew that I was appreciated.

As much as I dislike him and disagree with many of his business practices, Sam Walton had a mantra that he lived by (and no, I didn't work for that company). But I heard him say many times, "Listen to your people because they are the best idea generators you have."

Sy Beck · November 11, 2011

Carole, may I suggest that you copy/paste your OP and last substantial post and make a new thread in the Forum Feedback forum as well.

Fantastic job in summarising the essence and relating it in a simple way.

Pamela Galli · November 11, 2011

Carole Franizzi wrote:

Well, exactly.

Let’s be brutal for a moment. What is the product that LL sells? Well, to some, it’s very light entertainment. To others, it’s a very vital and necessary part of their lives. To such people – ones who have made homes here, made friends, fallen in love, “married” – it cannot be compared to a TV set or a boiler which goes on the blink. I’ve often wondered whether LL has ever fully comprehended the immense emotional investment some people make, and consequently, if they have ever understood the ethical implications of playing God in so many people’s lives.

Not forgetting the people who, with a “contract” which in no way protects them but only LL, invest money and time into SL projects, to the point that some partially or wholly depend on these projects for their RL income. Who on earth would sign a contract with an employer or a partner which protects only the rights of the other? Well, lovers of SL do. All the time. Every time you make something, rent or buy land, open a shop, make friends, fall in love, marry, you are carrying out an immense act of faith and goodwill in LL. Because they can cancel your contract in the blink of an eye. No appeal. No discussion. No argument. No explanation even.

This why the forums are so important. The product is us. And we create bonds with fellow products. We invest emotionally and financially. In something which is as stable as a paddle boat in the middle of an storm at sea. And yet we keep doing it. Why? Because we love SL. But if our only means of direct communication to our “gods” - the forums - is regimented like a South American dictatorship (no offence to South American dictatorships), how can we not be frustrated, irritable, offended? Being treated like half-witted preschoolers is very, very annoying. What the heck effort does it require to make a few short posts to keep us up-dated. Being treated as if we were too stupid to understand is annoying, doubly so when

we

are the thing to be understood.

We speak up to object to some new scheme and we get booted? Unacceptable. Really unacceptable. Posters like Pep make a couple (three to be precise) of jokey posts and they get banned for flooding the forums, whilst posters who’ve been recruited to create publicity are allowed to flood the forums with 20 threads, each composed of two lines, around the same theme? Come on…you gotta be joking.

As I said, and as you confirmed, it’s the pains in the behind who supply you with the objective and useful information.

Do LL really expect to get useful feedback from the I’m-so-happy ones who have a home, husband and prim kids in SL? Nah. All they’re going to tell you is how wunnerful it all is. The problem is it’s not wunnerful and more new clients are needed. And to figure out how to get them in here, LL needs to listen to the ones without the rose-tinted specs and decipher what they’re complaining about. Because in amongst the spoofs, parodies, complaints, rants, rages and melt-downs there’s precious marketing data.

And if they deigned to enter into conversation with us, maybe they’d get a whole lot more. And completely free of charge!

QFT

Over in the Commerce Forum we have often compared the astonishing lack of interest in customer feeback* compared to the businesses we run. I am glad to be alerted to problems and grateful to the customers who take the time to report them. Customer suggestions often turn out to be good ones I profit by.

And if I instead ignored them, I would not be surprised if some of them eventually got frustrated and testy about it.

* To give (some) credit where due: Yesterday LL rolled out a new transaction record in which display names, and then user names, appeared in the same field. (Yes, even the ascii display names.) Merchants went absolutely ballistic; LL restored the transactions page in about 24 hours. But then, it never should have happened in the first place.

Mickey Vandeverre · November 11, 2011

I don't really care to use the word "bully" - I do sometimes, but I don't think it's right word. I'm kind of seeing those people simply as somewhat troubled without social skills and no reasonable options to explain themselves or their point, or whatever, without being just downright rude and socially unacceptable. What the heck you do call that? Bully reminds me of 4th grade. But maybe that's the grade level they are still on,

Obviously, by the examples of names that you have mentioned....you and I have an entirely different concept of what a "bully" is. I see ya'll doing exactly that to people here.

I would wager that every time an example of "bully" came up in this forum - that one of your buds names was included.

So I'm just not able to grasp your point. There probably won't be many more that come around to tell you that. They simply don't bother with this forum anymore.

If you want it closed to your circle that does everything your way, which is what I'm reading loud and clear.....whatever....but that ain't exactly corresponding with your point that all community members be treated with respect and opposition to "favoring" certain segments.

"I have a vested interest in not standing by watching other clients being treated like something nasty stuck to the sole of one's shoe."

Um yeah....me too. And I've watched one of your buds treat people just like that for several years.

Nastiest example I've ever run into in the virtual world. By far.

I don't want that type promoted - and I'll be back to make that clear as often times as I can.

UncommonTruth · November 11, 2011

Thats quite a read. I believe I understand what the fuss has been about now. I'll keep my role as an outside observer, but I'll say again...I hope LL wakes up and listens to its community.

I'm gonna try to keep an eye out for the date, hopefully (if my computer gets fixed in time :smileymad:) I'll be able to come listen in on the next meeting. Not that I have anything to add lol, only my support.

Venus Petrov · November 11, 2011

Mickey, I will take their social skills over yours any day.

Ima Rang · November 11, 2011