Someone put up a kindergarden next to my make out parcel.

[Ceres]

So the last owner sold his M rated 512m parcel next to mine, and the current owner put up a kindergarden/kindergarten for RP'ng.

The thing is I was going to make a small recreation park that would be open for all and since it was M rated, I thought about adding in some romantic poseballs here and there.

Now, I know it is my land and I can do anything I want in it including setting up sex balls under the tree if I want to. But how secure I am from breaking the ToS in case some naughty couples decide they want to do it right there in the open when there are kids learning ABC next door?

And also how safe are the kids from being AR'd by the other visitors when they want to use my small park during their recess?

[Peggy Paperdoll]

I think you are mistaken about the pose ball out under a tree.  Adult type activities on M rated land have to be confined to areas not readily viewable from the outside.  The dispute seems to be with what is readily viewable since anyone can cam through walls and other objects.........but placing a pose ball that has adult type animations out in the open is not disputed.  It's against the CS (and probably the ToS). 

 

Make some reasonable effort to restrict the viewability from outside and you'll be on better ground (but still subject to an AR).  That holds true whether on not there's a kindergarten next door or not.

[Persephone Emerald]

You know the "kids" at the kindergarten are really kids, so they aren't the issue.

The issue is that you are on Moderate land, which allows nudity & kissing, but no sex animations in open places. Keep the outdoor romance poses to what could be viewed in a PG movie, & you'll be fine.  If you want to provide sexual animations, put them indoors or provide a TP to an enclosed skybox. Then don't advertise the sexual animations, or you risk appearing to be an Adult establishment in a Moderate region, which is clearly against the SL TOS.

[Ishtara Rothschild]

If your place is listed in search or otherwise advertised, there can be no adult activities of any sort, be it out in the open or within buildings. The inofficial rule about adult activities being allowed within buildings only applies to residential areas that are not listed in search.

[Persephone Emerald]

Forgive me, Ishrara, but your post is a bit confusing. If a person is renting homes in a Moderate region, then it's reasonable to assume they'd be advetising & that those appartments or houses that are rented or owned would have sex furniture in them. The owner of that land could certainly advertise their rental properties, but not the sex beds & such inside them. Most rental units are rented unfurnished, but some are rented furnished, so they could even have sex beds in them when they aren't yet rented out.  Also, a merchant is allowed to sell sex beds & such on Moderate land, as long as avatars aren't trying them out naked or with prim genitals attached.

My land is a combination of public & private use. My home is also a combination of semi-public & private use. So even if I'm not advertising my sex bed or those of my renters, I can't keep avatars from wandering into the houses, without using a security system. The doors are closed, but I don't require renters to lock their doors or use security orbs.

 

[Qie Niangao]

---

Persephone Emerald wrote:

Forgive me, Ishrara, but your post is a bit confusing. If a person is renting homes in a Moderate region, then it's reasonable to assume they'd be advetising & that those appartments or houses that are rented or owned would have sex furniture in them. The owner of that land could certainly advertise their rental properties, but not the sex beds & such inside them. Most rental units are rented unfurnished, but some are rented furnished, so they could even have sex beds in them when they aren't yet rented out.  Also, a merchant is allowed to sell sex beds & such on Moderate land, as long as avatars aren't trying them out naked or with prim genitals attached.

My land is a combination of public & private use. My home is also a combination of semi-public & private use. So even if I'm not advertising my sex bed or those of my renters, I can't keep avatars from wandering into the houses, without using a security system. The doors are closed, but I don't require renters to lock their doors or use security orbs. 

---

I think the use described is on the very edge of what's permitted on Moderate land, and a slight shift in the wind could move the line to make it a violation.

The potential problem is using the same parcel for purposes both private and public (listed in search).  At the moment, it seems to very much matter what is listed in search, and that's why I think you're still on the "allowed" side of the line.  But I'm not aware of explicit policy permitting adult private use of a Moderate parcel that is set to show in search at all.

It might be difficult to explicitly allow that because, without carefully designed traffic flow, such an arrangement could easily defeat the whole "more predictable experience" for visitors.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

What's wrong with common sense?  When you read a ToS or CS rule why does it have to spell every little detail covering every situation that may or could arise?  It's impossible and everyone knows it.  So why argue about it?  The ToS is pretty clear if you read it and apply just a little common sense.  Adult activities (like explicite sex animations or poses) cannot be placed or engaged in at any location that is readily viewable by the public unless the area is specifically restricted to "adults" only.  It does not say you cannot have such activities in areas designated as mature..........it says in areas that are readily viewable by the public in any area except Zindra (and even then it must be restricted to "adults" only).  You cannot advertise any content that is adult in nature unless the advertising is restricted to adults only.  Common sense would tell you that means if you want to have your sex bed in your home located on mature rated land then it cannot be put anywhere that is readily viewable by the public.  The OP's question about putting such pose balls under a tree out in the open is not allowed by the Tos.  The pose balls could, technically, be put in a "shack" under the trees but then we get into a somewhat gray area..........with the ability to cam through walls (something all but the newest of the newbies know) makes it questionable.  Common sense would tell you it's a dangerous tact to take.  If you put your pose balls in a "shack" located 4000 meters in the sky, then that certainly is not readily viewable.......someone is going to have put an effort into "camming" in.  Your cam will only cam as far as your view distance is set (that's 512 meters) so that someone is going to have fly up to 3500 meters to get a peek.  The ToS is clear about advertising adult content............I think most merchants understand that very well.

 

Common sense.......use it and you'll be fine.  Ignore it or push the limit you'll probably have some issues to deal with.  If you like pushing the limit, go ahead.  I want to have fun, then think a little first.  Sometimes you just can't do exactly what you want to do.  That goes for RL as well as SL.

[Ceres]

This is what i've got so far...

1. Open area with adult animations in an M rated land is not allowed if advertised in Search.
2. Open area with adult animations 'tucked' somewhere from prying eyes may or may not be allowed if advertised in Search.
3. Rental houses with adult animations are allowed as long as long as the sexual contents are not mentioned in Search.
4. Private home on the ground level with adult animations is allowed if this is solely for private use in an M rated land. 
5. Private Open area with adult animations is still not allowed in an M rated land.
6. Private Open area with adult animations 'tucked' somehwere from prying eyes is allowed.

So, what if I do this?
Subdivide those lands into 3. List Parcel A in search with M rated but PG contents. Provide a TP pad to Parcel C where it is a private property (probably even banlines) but with more secluded areas for adult contents (think caves, bushes, a small hut, etc.. ). Parcel B will act as the interface between those two parcels - private with public access and PG contents.

And since this is in Corsica, I could dig further down and make my sea bed deeper. We have been talking about using the sky as the privacy area but what about underwater?

From the ground level I won't be seeing anything under the water, so can I use it for Private Open area with adult animations?

 

 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Not quite.  An adult animation whether or not it's listed in search cannot be in and "open" area...........if you mean "open" to mean sitting somewhere is more to less plain sight.  If you mean "open" to mean that your land is not restricted to group access then you get in that gray (and dangerous) area............even then it cannot be in plain sight.  Trees, bushes, shack, house, even in a pond you dig in the ground (you can only terraform + or - 4 meters on mainland) are not secluded.........it's too easy to cam around or through those objects or under the water.  The reason I said put it in the sky is because you can place your animations way beyond anyone's camming distance and if anyone were to "peek" they would have to put considerable effort to get close enough to cam.............that is about the only way I can say is reasonably out of plain sight. 

 

It's not complicated.  Think of real life.  Public nudity is against the law in the US.  That means you cannot be nude in a place where anyone can easily see you.  It does not mean you can't be nude outside.  You can't sunbathe naked in your front yard if people on the street can see you by simply walking past your house or driving past.  If you have a 8 foot privacy fence with tall shrubs and anyone walking past your yard cannot see you without climbing a ladder or climbing over your gate then you won't be arrested for indecency.  The difference in SL and RL is it's just as easy to cam through a wall as it is to turn and look in real life.  I think you might want to explore selling your land on Corsica and buying some in Zindra if you want to have these animations at ground level.  It's up to you.........it would take someone ARing you for LL to do anything.  If you are willing to put up with that, then go ahead.

[Qie Niangao]

I'm not at all sure to what the whole "common sense" post was responding, but I'll take up the topic:

---

Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

What's wrong with common sense?  When you read a ToS or CS rule why does it have to spell every little detail covering every situation that may or could arise?  It's impossible and everyone knows it.  So why argue about it?  The ToS is pretty clear if you read it and apply just a little common sense.  Adult activities (like explicite sex animations or poses) cannot be placed or engaged in at any location that is readily viewable by the public unless the area is specifically restricted to "adults" only.  It does not say you cannot have such activities in areas designated as mature..........it says in areas that are readily viewable by the public in any area except Zindra (and even then it must be restricted to "adults" only).  You cannot advertise any content that is adult in nature unless the advertising is restricted to adults only.  Common sense would tell you that means if you want to have your sex bed in your home located on mature rated land then it cannot be put anywhere that is readily viewable by the public.  The OP's question about putting such pose balls under a tree out in the open is not allowed by the Tos.  The pose balls could, technically, be put in a "shack" under the trees but then we get into a somewhat gray area..........with the ability to cam through walls (something all but the newest of the newbies know) makes it questionable.  Common sense would tell you it's a dangerous tact to take.  If you put your pose balls in a "shack" located 4000 meters in the sky, then that certainly is not readily viewable.......someone is going to have put an effort into "camming" in.  Your cam will only cam as far as your view distance is set (that's 512 meters) so that someone is going to have fly up to 3500 meters to get a peek.  The ToS is clear about advertising adult content............I think most merchants understand that very well.

Common sense.......use it and you'll be fine.  Ignore it or push the limit you'll probably have some issues to deal with.  If you like pushing the limit, go ahead.  I want to have fun, then think a little first.  Sometimes you just can't do exactly what you want to do.  That goes for RL as well as SL.

---

It's important, however, to recognize the limited value of "common sense" in the interpretation of rules.  That's very much true in cases of RL law, but even moreso when applied to Linden policy enforcement.

Firstly, enforcement can be capricious and inconsistent.  That's less true now, perhaps, than under the ancien regime, but still: this is the Adult Content policy under discussion here.  Its enforcement is spotty at best, with blatantly Adult content still for sale on Moderate public parcels.

More to my original point, however, both the Adult Content rules and their enforcement exist for LL's business reasons, and that business is under constant change.  Whether yesterday's intepretation of a rule will apply tomorrow is really a question of whether it still benefits the business.  Precedent appears to carry very little weight in such considerations; the "letter of the law" is rather more of a leg to stand on.

Even that "letter of the law" is subject to change without notice.  Indeed, the current official statement about maturity ratings cited in the Community Standards is  dramatically different from what was communicated when Adult Content restrictions were first enforced.  For the most part, this has been to make the rules more concrete and explicit, and that's a good thing.

In fact, however, those changes have pushed the stated policy into restricting search terms, almost exclusively.  I see nothing suggesting that a thing's acceptability is affected by being hidden from camera view. In fact, explicitly the opposite (emphasis mine):

---

Dance clubs that feature "burlesque" acts can also generally reside in Moderate regions as long as they don't promote sexual conduct, for instance through pose balls (

whether in "backrooms" or more visible spaces

).

---

Now, I believe that enforcement is applying "common sense" such that the open visibility of content does affect its acceptability.  That's fine: it's only common sense.  But it's not a common sense interpretation of stated policy; rather, it fairly directly contradicts it.

 

[Ishtara Rothschild]

---

Persephone Emerald wrote:

Forgive me, Ishrara, but your post is a bit confusing. If a person is renting homes in a Moderate region, then it's reasonable to assume they'd be advetising & that those appartments or houses that are rented or owned would have sex furniture in them. The owner of that land could certainly advertise their rental properties, but not the sex beds & such inside them. Most rental units are rented unfurnished, but some are rented furnished, so they could even have sex beds in them when they aren't yet rented out.  Also, a merchant is allowed to sell sex beds & such on Moderate land, as long as avatars aren't trying them out naked or with prim genitals attached.

My land is a combination of public & private use. My home is also a combination of semi-public & private use. So even if I'm not advertising my sex bed or those of my renters, I can't keep avatars from wandering into the houses, without using a security system. The doors are closed, but I don't require renters to lock their doors or use security orbs.

 

---

Of course you can advertise M-rated locations that host sex furniture. Sex beds can even be sold in moderate regions. People are just not allowed to use this furniture for sexually explicit activities as long as the parcel is listed in search. Once the parcel is sold or rented out and your tenants start jumping on the furniture, it shouldn't show up in search anymore.

[Erwin Solo]

Here is the official policy on Maturity ratings:

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Maturity-ratings/ta-p/700119

 

It is ambiguous, apparently deliberately so. The policy doesn't specifically allow anything on Moderate rating that wouldn't be allowed under General rating.  

Certain things are expressly allowed in Adult.  Certain things are expressly dissallowed in General.  Moderate is an ambiguous mishmash. 

 

 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Persephone Emerald wrote:

Forgive me, Ishrara, but your post is a bit confusing. If a person is renting homes in a Moderate region, then it's reasonable to assume they'd be advetising & that those appartments or houses that are rented or owned would have sex furniture in them. The owner of that land could certainly advertise their rental properties, but not the sex beds & such inside them. Most rental units are rented unfurnished, but some are rented furnished, so they could even have sex beds in them when they aren't yet rented out.  Also, a merchant is allowed to sell sex beds & such on Moderate land, as long as avatars aren't trying them out naked or with prim genitals attached.

---

There's no rule that even says a merchant can sell sex beds on M land, or that you can have Sex items in private on M land.

There -USED TO BE- comments by Blondin in 'explaination to the FAQ' wiki articles. But these are now gone.

That said, even when they existed...

If those rental homes were in search, they would not be allowed to have sex furniture. As soon as people put up a secbed, that plot would have to leave search.

Blondin's comments about Sex Beds on M land shops was highly inconsistent with everything else in the FAQs - but even in his comments he had said that you could not advertise them as such. You could have them and sell them, but had to keep it on the down-low.

- Now though, we no longer have any such exception carved out by a single linden non-managerial employee listed anywhere in the official documentation.

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Ceres wrote:

This is what i've got so far...

 

---

You should ignore everything in this thread, including my last post; save where it matches what is in this one single document:

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Maturity-ratings/ta-p/700119

There is no longer any other source for this information. Former FAQs have been deleted or stamped as "do not rely on this incorrect information."

That link is it, pure and simple. If you are not sure after reading that link, then you're in the same boat as everyone else and should bring it up with a Linden. I suggest attending one of the Adult Content User Groups that has an actual Linden in it, and ignoring everyone who answers your questions that does not have 'Linden' after their name...

But keep further in mind that LLs appears to have recently disavowed one of its own recently-let-go employees in the removal off all of the former explainations and stamping one of them as 'wrong'. So this might best be taken up with a Linden that has managerial authority.

 

 

[Ceres]

Heck , I read it... and I was like "backroom" wot?

So the sky is my limit now... I can't even put up a teleport sign board that says, "Orgy - this way up" .. it has to be paraphrased with "Heaven - this way up"

Oh well... Maybe I should just build a church instead. I'm sure the kidlets from the kindergarden/kindergarten next door would be happy.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Not only the kidlets next door, but any do-gooder who happens by.

 

It's a fact of SL life.........there are some things that you just can't do.  Same as real life.

[Ceres]

Yep... I'm going to build a church with blinking sign board and hope everyone will be happy.

Until the atheists passes by...

[Pussycat Catnap]

Actually they've added something to the policy today:

From here:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Hiding_avatars_and_restricting_avatar_sounds

This:

 

Warning: Adult activities are not allowed on parcels in General regions, regardless of whether the parcel has hidden avatars. On Moderate land, such activity is only permitted privately, behind closed doors.

That makes official what we have mostly 'assumed' in past based on 'beat around the bush indirect' comments from Blondin.

We'll see if it stays there, or gets edited out as a 'typo'...

Hoping it sticks, as its about time that simple statement was actually officially stated. Even if in the wrong place.

 

[Rabid Cheetah]

Don't put it underwater and think that's avoiding public view.  A lot of folks like to walk on the bottom of the ocean floor, and it's only 20 meteres below see level (pun intended) at best.  Or what if they're on a boat, and stand up?  Will they fall overboard, into the water, and right on top of you and...ahem...you get the picture.

 

I'm no rules lawyer, ask others who know better, but I think what's adult and what's mature would be simillar to various pictures I've seen:  A picture of a naked female torso?  Better not put it on general land, but Mature should be fine.  A picture of a naked female torso bound and being penatrated?  That's definately crosses the line from "R" to "X", and you'd be ill-advised to put it anywhere but an Adult parcel.

 

A much bigger question is the juxtapositioning of the two parcels.  Would a PG make-out place right next to a school be creepy enough that Linden would consider it to be ageplay?  Would other residents with various agendas flip their lid if they saw something that's not a ToS violation, but that upsets their sensabilities?

 

Your best bet is to have some open communication between yourself, the other parcel owner, and Linden to figure out what's ok and what's not ok.

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Rabid Cheetah wrote:

Don't put it underwater and think that's avoiding public view.  A lot of folks like to walk on the bottom of the ocean floor, and it's only 20 meteres below see level (pun intended) at best.  Or what if they're on a boat, and stand up?  Will they fall overboard, into the water, and right on top of you and...ahem...you get the picture.

---

The water's 80m deep in my little corner of mainland water.

In my old sim, it was only 40m deep.

 

[Ceres]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

This:

 

Warning: Adult activities are not allowed on parcels in General regions, regardless of whether the parcel has hidden avatars. On Moderate land, such activity is only permitted privately, behind closed doors.

---

This is all I need to know,

To Rand Linden: Thank you for making it clear. From now on, all my adult contents will have at least one door.

[Ceres]

Sometimes, I am a mermaid...

Merfolks have needs too you know. Maybe I'll put in a sinked container or an old car, or pirate ship that the Merfolks can use to breed.

---

Rabid Cheetah wrote:

A much bigger question is the juxtapositioning of the two parcels.  Would a PG make-out place right next to a school be creepy enough that Linden would consider it to be ageplay?  

---

Maybe it will... thus my original question in my OP. But should I, as the owner of a private M rated land be denied my rights to put up even a PG make out contents  ( let alone a house full of adult contents and these items were already there since last year ) just because one fine day a Child Avatar decides to build a PG Child activity ( in an M rated land ) next to mine? Will LL listens to a child avatar instead?

It can happen the other way round too... I mean 512m isn't big enough to run around for children so there will be a time when they'll walked into my territory without realising... should I AR them for potential Child Play?

Considering we are both adults in RL, shouldn't common sense applied to both of us regardless of what avatars we are wearing?  

 

[Persephone Emerald]

Thanks, Pussycat for posting that link & quote. I think that's about as clear a statement as we've ever had from the Lindens about what *is* permitted on Moderate land.

"Burlesque" is of course a code word for strippers, which means nudity is allowed in public in Moderate regions. It's too bad they felt they needed to use a code word instead of just saying plainly that nudity is allowed in Moderate regions, but not in General ones (unless one is dressing inside their house?).  It's very difficult to try on skins & shapes without being able to see how your avatar looks nude, but if one keeps their activity to dressing & undressing behind closed doors, they're unlikelyto be reported for doing that in a General region.

Apparently sex acts would be treated the same way in regards to Moderate vs. Adult regions. In a moderate region you & whomever else you wish to invite can purform virtual sex acts in private. (Though no child-like avatars may be involved, you may employ what ever animal, vegitable or mineral-shaped avatar you wish.)  In Adult regions you can do all the same things publically.

[Persephone Emerald]

Underwater, merpeople can have caves or other types of houses for privacy. If one were to design an unadvertised skybox as an underwater environment, that would also be a private space.

In a Moderate region, private bondage-play ( and any sort of kink aside from age-play ) would be just as legal as regular, vanilla sex in the same private environment. ( I think the assumption is that if one cams through the walls, that's akin to peeking through the windows in RL, so the people inside should have an expectation of some "privacy" even though that privacy is thinner than a paper wall.)

@ Ceres:

If you find a child avatar on  your land, you are within your rights to eject & even ban them, but I don't think it would be fair to AR them unless they were engaging in sexual activity.

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Persephone Emerald wrote:

but not in General ones (unless one is dressing inside their house?).  It's very difficult to try on skins & shapes without being able to see how your avatar looks nude, but if one keeps their activity to dressing & undressing behind closed doors, they're unlikelyto be reported for doing that in a General region.

---

One thing you can't do on G land: change outfits in a way that causes you to strip down nude. Technically 0.1ms of no clothes on that skin and you're ARable - if someone can hit the button that fast and even cases to...

Oh, and any skin shop that shows the 'bits' can't be on G land, and many are. If anyone cared - they could run around ARing them.