Is Lindenlab choosing a doomed path for SL ? Tell us if the EEP and PBR introduction changed the way you play SL

[DevlinMcDermott]

If you want a profitable business like Linden Labs does,. 

Then you cater to the widest audience and the widest demographic. Not just one demographic.

The thing is, most people don't have 2,000–3,000 top-of-the line gaming computers with the latest graphics card. No, most people have 3-6 year old computers and update when the latest operating system is 1-2 years past its end date. That can't run PBR or whatever. 

If Linden Labs wants t to cater to just a small group of basically computer nerds,. Then Second Life will continue as it has. Down hill. 

[Irina Forwzy]

20 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Are you sure you don't have that the wrong way round?

People go out to work to earn money and then use that money to purchase L$ in order to buy things from creators who, in contrast, don't go out and work to earn money because people give them their hard earned money just for making things.

So, who's serving who in that scenario?  

It still doesn't matter.  If someone doesn't want to purchase from a creator then they have to close shop.

[Love Zhaoying]

21 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

39 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

Creators must not forget who they serve.

Are you sure you don't have that the wrong way round?

People go out to work to earn money and then use that money to purchase L$ in order to buy things from creators who, in contrast, don't go out and work to earn money because people give them their hard earned money just for making things.

So, who's serving who in that scenario?  

[BriannaLovey]

6 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Here let me serve you for 10 minutes to figure out you didnt have ALM on... for the 40 cent purchase you made...

Huh, so what are we doing here? Making the classic SPC or adopting PBR? It's not my fault! It's LL or any other platform that can't make up their mind!

A lot of creators hoped that PBR would simplify their workflow. In reality, all it does is add another step on top of it, since there will still be a large portion of SL that will be using pre-PBR viewers or Henri's viewer in order to continue using SL with their hardware.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 minute ago, Irina Forwzy said:

It still doesn't matter.  If someone doesn't want to purchase from a creator then they have to close shop.

Why, because of the exorbitant cost of running a free marketplace store?  It literally costs nothing to be a creator in SL, the only reason that a lack of sales would stop someone from creating is if they aspire to be a successful merchant as well as a creator.

[BriannaLovey]

Just now, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Why, because of the exorbitant cost of running a free marketplace store?  It literally costs nothing to be a creator in SL, the only reason that a lack of sales would stop someone from creating is if they aspire to be a successful merchant as well as a creator.

It costs time. Time is infinitely more valuable than money. If you spend time creating stuff that nobody buys, then there is an opportunity cost, since you could be doing other more valuable things with that time. The story is different if you create things for yourself I suppose.

[Codex Alpha]

5 hours ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

Amusingly, there was much experimenting with tonemapping since early on in the pre-beta days. I was there in certain discords watching it happen. The result was different, but not bad. Life was good. Things actually kind of "popped" a little more than before, if anything.

And then the screaming started. Oh how it started and wouldn't stop. And so we ended up with the current oddball tonemapping that is a kind of compromise that allows for HDR tonemapping without it looking "too different".

Personally I'm hoping that LUT changing becomes a thing available on either a viewer level or integrated into EEP.  Then maybe at least that part of the screaming can stop.

See, even as an experienced texturer, half of that doesnt make sense to me lol. This kind of thing is more in line with Film and Photography... so how is the average creator, or even aspiring one going to be working with this? Everyone else is allowing sRGB workflows, then make the conversions (if needed) to ACES in the game engines. It's not like we're making CG movies here.
As usual I'll go down some stupid rabbithole on this stuff, over-engineer for SL, and waste a lot of my time, while others will just continue with the usual 'baked lighting' for wider audience anyway.
People need to go around in-world using FS viewer and use it's features to look at how creators (and end users) ACTUALLY use the assets - most without normals, specs anyway...

5 hours ago, BriannaLovey said:

A lot of creators hoped that PBR would simplify their workflow. In reality, all it does is add another step on top of it, since there will still be a large portion of SL that will be using pre-PBR viewers or Henri's viewer in order to continue using SL with their hardware.

I had already figured out how to maintain my PBR pipeline for other platforms, and simply convert the textures produced by those projects to SL format (SPC/GLS, or "Blinn Phong" as some use), so that's not the problem.

It's all the (alleged) weird color management SL is claiming to want, to get my/our/others PBR textures to work in SL - which looks like a big pain in the butt. (Who wants to adopt an ACES format just for SL)
 

5 hours ago, Istelathis said:

Wouldn't standardizing the workflow of SL make it easier for creators to move their product line into other virtual worlds though?  I dunno, this is an honest question.  I know that it might not be so great for rigged outfits, but the textures would migrate to other platforms easier, right?  

Edit:
Alternatively, it might make it easier from creators from other platforms to provide their products to SL as well.  

Yes, but they may not want that But as a creator, if I'm working in any pipeline, I want the results to be uniform and standard, so as not to waste my time, or having to create a 'specific configuration' for an "SL project" vs another

One would expect I would have no problem with this transition, for me it's an issue of whether the PBR from every OTHER program/platform looks the same in SL - and it doesn't

Edited Wednesday at 11:45 PM by Codex Alpha

[BriannaLovey]

Just now, Codex Alpha said:

See, even as an experienced texturer, half of that doesnt make sense to me lol. This kind of thing is more in line with Film and Photography... so how is the average creator, or even aspiring one going to be working with this? Everyone else is allowing sRGB workflows, then make the conversions (if needed) to ACES in the game engines. It's not like we're making CG movies here.
As usual I'll go down some stupid rabbithole on this stuff, over-engineer for SL, and waste a lot of my time, while others will just continue with the usual 'baked lighting' for wider audience anyway.
People need to go around in-world using FS viewer and use it's features to look at how creators (and end users) ACTUALLY use the assets - most without normals, specs anyway...

Yep. Vast majority of things I have ever bought don't even have normal and spec maps. From a creator's standpoint, there is no point in making them if not everyone sees them. Literally the same exact thing is going to happen with PBR.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 minute ago, BriannaLovey said:

A lot of creators hoped that PBR would simplify their workflow. In reality, all it does is add another step on top of it, since there will still be a large portion of SL that will be using pre-PBR viewers or Henri's viewer in order to continue using SL with their hardware.

It really doesn't take a lot of work to add an extra map to an object.  As for "a large portion" of residents not swapping to PBR, I'll wait to see actual statistics rather than judging based on very subjective projections.

[Istelathis]

Wouldn't standardizing the workflow of SL make it easier for creators to move their product line into other virtual worlds though?  I dunno, this is an honest question.  I know that it might not be so great for rigged outfits, but the textures would migrate to other platforms easier, right?  

Edit:
Alternatively, it might make it easier from creators from other platforms to provide their products to SL as well.  

Edited Wednesday at 06:40 PM by Istelathis

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

3 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

It costs time. Time is infinitely more valuable than money. If you spend time creating stuff that nobody buys, then there is an opportunity cost, since you could be doing other more valuable things with that time. The story is different if you create things for yourself I suppose.

Yes, and that's the distinction between "creators" and "merchants".  Merchants may serve their customers but creators serve whatever it is that compels them to create.

[Arielle Popstar]

11 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

It has been announced, there is an entire site for it. They opened it up to premium members:

https://secondlife.com/mobile

I have not tried it because stupidly, they did not include lifetime account holders in it. I am not interested anyway, but I would have at least tried it on my phone and iPad.

Ok thanks. Announced 20 hours ago. In addition to it being available to Premium and Premium + members, it seems also for:

Quote

Are you an owner or manager of a Second Life community or experience that would like to participate in a future launch event for our new mobile app? Learn more about how you can participate in our Mobile App Promotion Partnership Program.

Ok maybe I am reading that last part wrong and it is only for a future launch event.

Edited Wednesday at 06:43 PM by Arielle Popstar

[Modulated]

9 minutes ago, DevlinMcDermott said:

If you want a profitable business like Linden Labs does,. 

Then you cater to the widest audience and the widest demographic. Not just one demographic.

The thing is, most people don't have 2,000–3,000 top-of-the line gaming computers with the latest graphics card. No, most people have 3-6 year old computers and update when the latest operating system is 1-2 years past its end date. That can't run PBR or whatever. 

If Linden Labs wants t to cater to just a small group of basically computer nerds,. Then Second Life will continue as it has. Down hill. 

This is drivel.

[BriannaLovey]

3 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

It really doesn't take a lot of work to add an extra map to an object.  As for "a large portion" of residents not swapping to PBR, I'll wait to see actual statistics rather than judging based on very subjective projections.

I have talked to someone who works for a land rental company inworld about the ramifications of this update. I was told that the vast majority of the customers aren't the sort who can afford or know how to upgrade their PC properly for this.

[Love Zhaoying]

On 6/25/2024 at 9:35 AM, Paul Hexem said:

Oh yeah. There's no denying that LL dropped the ball here. Like I said elsewhere though, that's pretty standard for LL. We really should be used to it by now.

You just KNOW some people WANT LL to drop the ball!

[Istelathis]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

You just KNOW some people WANT LL to drop the ball!

Doggo heaven!

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

You just KNOW some people WANT LL to drop the ball!

They are good at it!

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 minute ago, BriannaLovey said:

I have talked to someone who works for a land rental company inworld about the ramifications of this update. I was told that the vast majority of the customers aren't the sort who can afford or know how to upgrade their PC properly for this.

That's still anecdotal evidence.  As I said until we start seeing statistics of the number of people using PBR viewers and how much time they're spending in world there's no telling what percentage of residents are going to be using PBR.

[Toothless Draegonne]

3 minutes ago, DevlinMcDermott said:

If you want a profitable business like Linden Labs does,. 

Then you cater to the widest audience and the widest demographic. Not just one demographic.

The thing is, most people don't have 2,000–3,000 top-of-the line gaming computers with the latest graphics card. No, most people have 3-6 year old computers and update when the latest operating system is 1-2 years past its end date. That can't run PBR or whatever. 

If Linden Labs wants t to cater to just a small group of basically computer nerds,. Then Second Life will continue as it has. Down hill. 

That's correct. You cater to the widest demographic that have been enjoying PBR content for over a decade at this point, not including the decades beforehand when it was a standard in prerendered footage.

Do I need to remind everyone again that you need far less than "the latest gaming PC" to run SL in full ultra? I'm doing just that on last gen's mid-tier laptop, and if you are budget-concious, you do not buy laptops expecting bang for buck.

[Codex Alpha]

5 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

That's still anecdotal evidence.  As I said until we start seeing statistics of the number of people using PBR viewers and how much time they're spending in world there's no telling what percentage of residents are going to be using PBR.

True, but LL is not big on having statistics, nor anyone having access to statistics, nor reported as to those same statistics..

On ALL their past platforms. So how will we get them? They're so cloak and dagger on all that sort of thing.

[Arielle Popstar]

Colored Bling!! 

Wonders how long it will be before Clubs outlaw it like facelights or the viewers have a setting to not see it on others.

[Istelathis]

1 minute ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

That's correct. You cater to the widest demographic that have been enjoying PBR content for over a decade at this point, not including the decades beforehand when it was a standard in prerendered footage.

Do I need to remind everyone again that you need far less than "the latest gaming PC" to run SL in full ultra? I'm doing just that on last gen's mid-tier laptop, and if you are budget-concious, you do not buy laptops expecting bang for buck.

I barely muster 8fps in the latest Firestorm, while in SL21B.. this is ridiculous!

🙃🦆😉😜

 

[BriannaLovey]

15 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

That's still anecdotal evidence.  As I said until we start seeing statistics of the number of people using PBR viewers and how much time they're spending in world there's no telling what percentage of residents are going to be using PBR.

Sometimes the moment when a decision can have the most amount of impact is when you have the least amount of data to draw conclusions from. I am not waiting until then to help people (both creators and users) work around the issues these updates cause.

[Irina Forwzy]

28 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Why, because of the exorbitant cost of running a free marketplace store?  It literally costs nothing to be a creator in SL, the only reason that a lack of sales would stop someone from creating is if they aspire to be a successful merchant as well as a creator.

But if no one buys your product, why are you going to continue to make?  Majority of creators aren't creating just for the sake of creating. They are making for those that shop their products.

If they were creating for just themselves, you'd see more long-skirts and knee-length skirts for instance, than what we see...

[Toothless Draegonne]

8 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

I barely muster 8fps in the latest Firestorm, while in SL21B.. this is ridiculous!

🙃🦆😉😜

 

I can kind of understand why you might want to run a viewer in a virtual machine, but it's a virtual machine. This is probably even less common than people trying to run ultra detail levels on a netbook, and you have to accept at least some drop in FPS even if you're passing a dedicated GPU through and enabling all the CPU switches to speed things up a bit.

Again, try not running ultra.