Love Zhaoying Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Why? Not a challenge, a literal question. I get that it probably streamlines the creation and importation process, but what difference is this going to make to the average resident? I seriously don't understand. Everything will look better in the scene, without requiring extra effort..? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Well, now I'm just hurt. /me sniffs Show me where the mean spaghetti lady hurt you! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 15 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said: but the fact that glTF scenes will provide tons of new capability that will be more difficult for your average user to grasp. Depending on LL's implementation, modifying such scenes may not even be possible outside external programs. Not everyone will have to utilize these glTF scenes though. I'd estimate only a small percentage would because most, like in Belli, like to play around with their home and garden, mix and match, design the layout themselves...hence would not want to rez some non-modifiable pre-made scene. What's wrong with giving the option to use them to those who want them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Is that you? Ouch! Zing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Not everyone will have to utilize these glTF scenes though. I'd estimate only a small percentage would because most, like in Belli, like to play around with their home and garden, mix and match, design the layout themselves...hence would not want to rez some non-modifiable pre-made scene. What's wrong with giving the option to use them to those who want them? Everything will be a GLTF scene. The workflow and capability make it a no brainer, it's a huge step up for content creation. There is nothing stopping people from mixing and matching and there is no constraint on a scene scale .. a single furniture item can be a single GLTF object. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 Just now, Coffee Pancake said: a single furniture item can be a single GLTF object. I was just reading about that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said: Everything will look better in the scene, without requiring extra effort..? Well, the effort i assume is part of the point. I don't understand how or why it well look better. Sometimes I worry that the real point of at least some of this for some people is the tech itself, rather than the impact the tech will have. It's maybe a version of Solutionism. "Why do we want to introduce gltf scenes? Because we can, and other people on shinier platforms are using it!" I don't actually know. I still haven't heard an explanation of how this makes SL any better for anyone other than a smallish group of creators? I'd love to hear that this is wrong. In the meantime, I am half-believing Brianna's slightly conspiracy-theory idea about culling the herd of creators. (Flea has said something similar above.) I'm sure that LL would rather deal with a small cadre of professional creators. Certainly, that is their focus when it comes to consultation. It is, however, definitely another stake in the heart of the barely alive remnant of the older model of SL as a place for collective creative endeavour. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 7 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: it's a huge step up for content creation. For who? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 30 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said: Nope, I don't depend on SL for my income. But plenty of others do. I don't mind the extra money myself. But when sculpts were introduced I learned how to use them. Some creators exited SL over it. Same with mesh -- some creators didn't have the time or didn't want to take the trouble to learn mesh. They left. As will be the case with all this new stuff we see evolving. What's wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: I don't actually know. I still haven't heard an explanation of how this makes SL any better for anyone other than a smallish group of creators? I'd love to hear that this is wrong. Go visit that store someone mentioned -- it's beautiful in PBR for everyone. Can't remember the person who mentioned it on the forum or the name of the store though...lol. Maybe she'll see this and chime in. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Well, the effort i assume is part of the point. I don't understand how or why it well look better. Sometimes I worry that the real point of at least some of this for some people is the tech itself, rather than the impact the tech will have. It's maybe a version of Solutionism. "Why do we want to introduce gltf scenes? Because we can, and other people on shinier platforms are using it!" LL and Tillia keep getting bought out. Maybe it's as simple as somebody doing the buying finally insisted that SL start using some modern standards. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriannaLovey Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: I don't mind the extra money myself. But when sculpts were introduced I learned how to use them. Some creators exited SL over it. Same with mesh -- some creators didn't have the time or didn't want to take the trouble to learn mesh. They left. As will be the case with all this new stuff we see evolving. What's wrong with that? The growing difference between producers and consumers to the point of absurdity. But I guess that also reflects the real world to some degree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: In the meantime, I am half-believing Brianna's slightly conspiracy-theory idea about culling the herd of creators. I don't feel culled. I feel challenged to up my game! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 Just now, Paul Hexem said: LL and Tillia keep getting bought out. Maybe it's as simple as somebody doing the buying finally insisted that SL start using some modern standards. But why? Explain to me why this articulation of "modern standards" make SL better for us all? What am I missing? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 1 minute ago, BriannaLovey said: 6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: I don't mind the extra money myself. But when sculpts were introduced I learned how to use them. Some creators exited SL over it. Same with mesh -- some creators didn't have the time or didn't want to take the trouble to learn mesh. They left. As will be the case with all this new stuff we see evolving. What's wrong with that? Expand The growing difference between producers and consumers to the point of absurdity. But I guess that also reflects the real world to some degree. I remember those heady times when just about anybody could rez a prim, do a bit of modification and sell it. The thing is, if I (or anybody) did that now nobody would want to buy it -- it's the fault of the consumer -- they want content that looks better. It's important to point out that anybody can still "produce" prims and sculpts all they want -- they're just less likely to sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Go visit that store someone mentioned -- it's beautiful in PBR for everyone. Can't remember the person who mentioned it on the forum or the name of the store though...lol. Maybe she'll see this and chime in. Sure. I am sure that PBR looks better to some in some places. And I'm sure that, eventually, that will be more generally true. But one of the selling points for PBR (for those who asked questions; the PR line is simply that it will make SL look nicer) was that it would open the way to new tech improvements. One of those is glTF. It enables us to introduce glTF scenes. Great! Now explain to me why this is a good thing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: 5 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said: LL and Tillia keep getting bought out. Maybe it's as simple as somebody doing the buying finally insisted that SL start using some modern standards. But why? Explain to me why this articulation of "modern standards" make SL better for us all? What am I missing? I think you might be missing the fact that all us oldies in SL are getting older and dying off. Likely they want to attract some new customers that are still alive, and they expect better than a game that's stuck in the last century -- it's what they're accustomed to. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Great! Now explain to me why this is a good thing. People who are alive are better for LL's bottom line. lol 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 Just now, Luna Bliss said: I think you might be missing the fact that all us oldies in SL are getting older and dying off. Likely they want to attract some new customers that are still alive, and they expect better than a game that's stuck in the last century -- it's what they're accustomed to. If I buy a nice looking chair that uses PBR, will it look nicer if it was generated and imported using glTF scenes? How will this make a difference to me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: If I buy a nice looking chair that uses PBR, will it look nicer if it was generated and imported using glTF scenes? How will this make a difference to me? It's the larger picture -- what will be possible in the future via these changes -- LL's future customers. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: It's the larger picture -- what will be possible in the future via these changes -- LL's future customers. "What will be possible in the future" is glTF scenes. How will this bring new customers to SL? Or are you arguing that LL is playing the very long game here? That PBR is great because it permits glTF scenes, which will be great because they permit . . . something else? What? Edited July 9 by Scylla Rhiadra Typo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: 6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: It's the larger picture -- what will be possible in the future via these changes -- LL's future customers. "What will be possible in the future" is glTF scenes. How will this bring new customers to SL? Or are you arguing that LL is playing the very long game here? That PBR is great because it permits glTF scenes, which will be great because they permit . . . something else? What? I think SL is making way for creators who are accustomed to a certain workflow and higher standards (PBR does look better) -- having this ability could entice them to create in SL too. As it is many of them stay away from SL. And creators in SL not accustomed to this new workflow can up their game. It was the same with mesh. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagachief Darkstone Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Sure. I am sure that PBR looks better to some in some places. And I'm sure that, eventually, that will be more generally true. But one of the selling points for PBR (for those who asked questions; the PR line is simply that it will make SL look nicer) was that it would open the way to new tech improvements. One of those is glTF. It enables us to introduce glTF scenes. Great! Now explain to me why this is a good thing. glTF scenes/meshes allow LL a way to fix and improve some things about mesh rendering. The vertex buffers have been greatly increased in both size and precision, allowing for larger, more complex mesh without being cut up. The skeletal animation system has been overhauled to transform and skin on the GPU entirely. In theory this means a fully glTF based avatar will render dramatically faster than the old collada mesh. Avatar rendering is currently one of the most CPU-demanding parts of the viewer, so it could result in pretty major performance improvements. glTF scenes won't have any of the strict limits current mesh has: no face limits, no bone limits, and no scale limits (well, unless people cause too many problems, I imagine). It'll also bring glTF punctual lights, which are defined in lumen/watts, meaning they can emit HDR light. Since glTF scenes are based on node hierarchies, this means that a transform on one node affects all other nodes that are parented to it, unlike the current system where everything is flat hierarchy vs the root prim. Speaking of current performance, there's already multiple pull requests on Second Life's GitHub that are improving things for lower end machines, and some others that look to greatly improve performance across all kinds of hardware. Edited July 9 by Nagachief Darkstone 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: "Why do we want to introduce gltf scenes? Because we can, and other people on shinier platforms are using it!" Ok. Say you're making a cupboard. Right now the doors have to have to separate objects, you have to mess about with hidden geometry to fix the rotational point, and then mess about with LSL to puppet the whole mess. There is little control over the end result, the door will move however the SL viewer decides to tween the object updates. Then a user comes along and mods it, or relinks it and it's a whole world of hurt. SL content is weird and janky AF. With a GLTF object. You have a single object, with a built in set of bones, that can be animated any way you like. All the script has to do is play the animation. Want that door to open slowly and buttery smooth? Easy. Want it to wobble and fall off its hinges? Easy. Want stuff to fly out the open doors and dance about without looking like a pile of janky garbage? Easy. Any number of texture faces, rigged and animated however you damn well like, all uploaded as a single thing direct from your authoring software of choice, using industry standard workflows and fully hardware accelerated on the end users computer. But that's just objects .. this will be completely transformative for avatar bodies and clothing. Yes.. this also means content authoring from inside SL is well and truly dead and it's about time too. Edited July 9 by Coffee Pancake 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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